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Old February 28, 2018, 11:24 PM   #1
Prof Young
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Query about NICS checks.

So, if an NICS check is not responded to within three days of the query, the firearms dealer may go ahead and transfer possession of the gun without a completed NICS. Is this accurate?

So much to learn about this whole arena.

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Old February 28, 2018, 11:37 PM   #2
raimius
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Yes, they have the option to complete the transfer. Many will not, due to the potential liability/moral concerns, if they feel that the buyer may not be on the up and up.
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Old March 1, 2018, 04:52 PM   #3
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I think in some states if there is a delay but no reason for the delay, the transaction must proceed.
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Old March 1, 2018, 10:31 PM   #4
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Quote:
In The Ten Ring I think in some states if there is a delay but no reason for the delay, the transaction must proceed.
Not at all correct.


FBI NICS will tell the dealer "This transaction is delayed while NICS conducts further research. The Brady Law does not prohibit the transfer of the firearm on (day and date).

Some dealers chose to not transfer the firearm until NICS updates to a proceed. That might be weeks later. I've had NICS call back to give a proceed two weeks after the buyer picked up the gun.

NICS never gives the dealer or buyer the reason for a delay or even a denial.
If the buyer is denied he must submit a written request for the reason. The FBI has five business days to respond.
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Old March 2, 2018, 06:36 PM   #5
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It highlights the difference between the definition of 'may' vs 'shall'.

Some states MAY issue a concealed carry permit, while others SHALL issue if the applicant is acceptable.

Since the NICS is based on 'may', some FFLs will choose NOT to proceed with the sale. Entirely their perogative, even if it leaves customers with a sour taste in their mouths.
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Old March 2, 2018, 07:33 PM   #6
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I have a very common name, and even when I give my SS# I still get delayed very, very often when purchasing a firearm.

My only saving grace is that I only purchase from two dealers in my area, and have been on a first name basis with the owners for decades.
They always proceed with the sale after the NICS three day delay, because they know my purchasing history, but it is entirely their decision to deny a sale at any time.
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Old March 2, 2018, 09:20 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikejonestkd
I have a very common name, and even when I give my SS# I still get delayed very, very often when purchasing a firearm.

My only saving grace is that I only purchase from two dealers in my area, and have been on a first name basis with the owners for decades.
They always proceed with the sale after the NICS three day delay, because they know my purchasing history, but it is entirely their decision to deny a sale at any time.
have you considered applying for a "Unique Personal Identification Number" (UPIN)? It's intended specifically for people in your situation.

I don't know why more people don't know about it. About six months ago I was in a gun shop, chatting with the owner (whom I've known for many years). Another customer was complaining about usually getting delays. I asked the customer if he had applied for a UPIN, and he had never heard of it. To my surprise, the owner (who has been an FFL for about 30 years) had also never heard of it.
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Old March 3, 2018, 12:46 PM   #8
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Quote:
Aguila Blanca .....To my surprise, the owner (who has been an FFL for about 30 years) had also never heard of it.
Every time a dealer contacts NICS, the customer service rep will ask him for the buyer/transferees:
Last name
First name
Middle name
Cadence (Jr, Sr, II, III, etc
State of residence
Place of Birth
Height
Weight
Sex
Birth date
Social Security #
UPIN#
Ethnicity
Race
Country of citizenship
Type of Firearm

That's asked every single time a dealer runs an FBI NICS check.

Also printed on every Form 4473 is Question "9. Unique Personal Identification Number (UPIN) if applicable (see instructions for Question 9.)"

The instructions for Question 9 are page 4 of the Form 4473.

Any dealer who says he's never heard of a UPIN is too dumb to hold a gun, much less sell them.
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Old March 3, 2018, 09:03 PM   #9
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Quote:
Aguila Blanca .....To my surprise, the owner (who has been an FFL for about 30 years) had also never heard of it.
Every time a dealer contacts NICS, the customer service rep will ask him for the buyer/transferees:
Last name
First name
Middle name
Cadence (Jr, Sr, II, III, etc
State of residence
Place of Birth
Height
Weight
Sex
Birth date
Social Security #
UPIN#
Ethnicity
Race
Country of citizenship
Type of Firearm

That's asked every single time a dealer runs an FBI NICS check.
Not all states use NICS. In my state, the background checks for gun sales go through our state police. The state police don't ask about UPINs, so it's not totally astonishing that an FFL wasn't aware of it. I did find it somewhat surprising, but not incomprehensible.
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Old March 4, 2018, 09:59 PM   #10
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Good grief.....

Quote:
Aguila Blanca ......Not all states use NICS.
They sure as heck do!
While the majority of states contact the FBI NICS directly, a few states have a state agency serve as the point of contact for NICS checks.



Quote:
In my state, the background checks for gun sales go through our state police.
And who do you think your state police call?





Quote:
The state police don't ask about UPINs, so it's not totally astonishing that an FFL wasn't aware of it. I did find it somewhat surprising, but not incomprehensible.
NICS didn't begin asking for the UPIN until a little over a year ago. Have you made a Brady check since then?

ITS ON THE FORM 4473......which is identical in every state and US territory.
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Old March 4, 2018, 10:08 PM   #11
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Here in PA we have PICS and that connects to NICS. So your checked on state records and the national NICS
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Old March 5, 2018, 12:39 AM   #12
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
And who do you think your state police call?
I don't know, but just based on how long my checks have taken I don't think they call anyone. Once the FFL gives them my name and carry permit number, the transaction approval code comes back in seconds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
NICS didn't begin asking for the UPIN until a little over a year ago. Have you made a Brady check since then?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
ITS ON THE FORM 4473......which is identical in every state and US territory.
I know it's on the 4473. I showed that to my dealer and his customer. I've heard him make innumerable calls to the state police, between my own purchases and my being a fly on the wall when other people are buying. He gives the state call center the buyer's name, permit number, and whether it's a handgun or a long gun. That's it.
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Old March 5, 2018, 09:01 AM   #13
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In some states a NICS check is NOT required at point of sale for a weapon.

Federal law does allow someone to bypass the NICS when purchasing a weapon, if that person holds a concealed weapons permit for a state that has been approved by the ATF for a waiver. (Some states do have a state website, accessible by FFLs...also linked to LE computers...to verify a license is still valid since a person could have a license revoked but possibly still have the card.)

CFR › Title 27 › Chapter II › Subchapter B › Part 478 › Subpart F › Section 478.102

That is for point of sale. However, technically, a NICS check was run during the background check for the permit. Some states only run an in-depth background check (including fingerprints) for a permit, but to obtain the ATF waiver, the must also run a NICS check at the time permit issuance.

List of states....
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regula...y-permit-chart

Interesting map on direct NICS checks vs. State POC checks, or partial check, as well as notation on states excluded for point of sale checks with a permit

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/...pation-map.pdf

Last edited by RETG; March 5, 2018 at 09:12 AM.
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Old March 5, 2018, 11:04 AM   #14
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Quote:
Aguila Blanca
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
And who do you think your state police call?
I don't know, but just based on how long my checks have taken I don't think they call anyone. Once the FFL gives them my name and carry permit number, the transaction approval code comes back in seconds.
What state are you in?
Your carry permit seems to offer a different NICS procedure than does a purchaser in your state who does not have a carry permit......have you listened to those Brady checks? That's the ones I'm referring to.

A Texas CHL/LTC holder will never hear a TX dealer call in a NICS check on them.
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