Holster strap/snap positioning

[spacecoast]

I'm getting ready for my "advanced" defensive handgun class on Saturday, this will be the first time I've spent any significant time wearing a holster and mag pouch.

Questions -

For purposes of this class, I purchased an inexpensive generic nylon belt holster that seems to fit either my P95 and P345 really well and holds the gun nice and secure. I was interested in something that would be adaptable to either, the more expensive holsters seemed to be custom-made for one or the other.



The strap over the gun is fully adjustable (velcro anchors on both sides), and it seems most natural to position the straps so that the "unsnap" requires a tug out away from the body. Is that correct? The holster shown below looks as if it unsnaps into the body. Perhaps this is just the difference between a thumb break snap holster and another type, I would like to understand this better.



By the way, rather than the positions shown above for the strap, with both pistols it seems most natural to angle the strap back to put it across the channel below the slide at the top of the grip. I don't see a safety issue since both pistols are DA/SA. Any thoughts?

[demigod]

If that's the holster you plan to take "advanced" pistol training with... I'd get your money back now. You're wasting the instructors time and every other students' time too.

edit: OK. I read your other thread again, and I don't think you're kidding around. That holster is really not going to be adequate for any serious kind of training.

You don't have to spend a fortune on a holster, but you should at a minimum look at a holster dedicated to your model of weapon. Even an Uncle Mikes kydex or Blackhawk Serpa would do a decent job.

[spacecoast]

You're wasting the instructors time and every other students' time too.

LOL, don't hold back... tell us how you really feel.

That is a belt holster, and it seems to work pretty well. The question is a serious one. If you could just attempt to answer it given the parameters it was formulated in I would be most appreciative.

[demigod]

A quick search shows that Galco makes the COP 3 Slot holster for the P345. That model has the thumb break.

(just looking on LApolicegear's sight... that's the only Galco model I see that works for the P345 - I can't get to many sights here at work due to the filter)

[fastbolt]

Well, after you get a chance to experience the class, and observe how the equipment selected and used by both the instructor(s) and other students works for them, and compare it to yours, you might rethink your budget one-size-fits-all holster and magazine carrier selection.

Naturally, if you're not intending, or able, to lawfully carry your pistols concealed wherever you live, then buying separate holsters can often be an understandably expensive investment for use only within one or two classroom situations. Especially if you're talking leather or some of the made-to-order kydex rigs.

Also, what may seem 'most natural' to you because of your understandably lesser experienced perspective may not actually be the most effective and most intuitive under actual use. There's a reason most holster makers who provide defensive holsters (both for uniform and concealment) have mostly come to position the retention straps inboard and over the rear of the slide. Releasing the retention strap with your thumb positioned inward and already over the left side of grip frame, where your thumb had to go to acquire and establish your shooting grip, can make for an easier grasp and grip of the pistol, unlike having your thumb shifted to the outside of the pistol and then having to return it inboard to acquire and establish your grip.

There have been some exceptions among some holster makers and designs, of course, and I can think of a couple of nylon shoulder rigs which positioned a strap under the frame tang, but that seemed to be more to help prevent the weapon from falling out than for any ease of the shooter being better able to use it.

Reading the instructions which accompany the holster, and perhaps calling to discuss the subject of holsters with the company or individual putting on the advanced class, might be a good place to start.

The market and industry is awash with more types of concealment holsters than can be easily sorted and tried. Not all of them are necessarily suited to the knowledge, needs, desire, skillsets and experience of every potential customer. I certainly have my fair share of boxes of holsters which I've collected over the years, and I've certainly bought ones which I regretted buying afterward, too.

Please don't take any of my comments as critical. We all have to start somewhere, usually at the beginning.

[demigod]

We all have to start somewhere, usually at the beginning.

This for sure! By the time you get to your second/third class, you'll be saying... "I can't believe I was going to use that holster!"

[spacecoast]

A quick search shows that Galco makes the COP 3 Slot holster for the P345

Thanks, that doesn't really answer the question but it's useful info. BTW, if I am in for a painful lesson on holster quality/technology, I'm up for that, it wouldn't be the first time I learned something the hard way and spent a significant amount of money doing so

Hopefully the instructor will provide adequate feedback on what I will need for the second and third legs of the course.

[spacecoast]

fastbolt -

Thanks for the well-reasoned feedback, I appreciate it. I don't really consider this a concealment holster since it rides on the outside of my trousers and living in one of the warmer places in the country affords little chance to cover a holster with a jacket or sweatshirt. By necessity, my concealed carry is done in-pocket with a pocket gun. This holster will be more of a convenient place to hang a pistol for a class that hopefully focuses on shooting, tactics, body position, clearing jams, dim light shooting, etc., not on holster selection. If holster selection is a big topic, then I'll just have to ignore that part since OWB holsters are not a prominent part of my future that I can see. Maybe I can be the class example of "what not to get" A high capacity semi-auto with at least 3 magazines is what they specified and that's what I intend to take. I'm leaning toward using the P95 rather than P345 because I have a loading tool for it.

I will try to determine if reversing the strap will enable it to be configured as a thumb break (I do have a thumb break Galco for my J frame Model 60), but the snap is pretty heavy and I don't think the thumb break is going to work. The original picture doesn't make that clear, and there were no instructions.

[fastbolt]

It's not uncommon for the budget nylon holsters to offer the ability of the thumb break retention strap to be switched depending on the 'handedness' of the buyer, unlike the slightly more expensive heavier built and molded 'cloth' holsters which are made specifically in either right or left hand configuration.

Also, some nylon holsters only offer their user a plain, soft nylon strap which doesn't help provide the support needed to easily unsnap the strap, and others have added stiffening materials to the inside strap, helping make it easier to release the strap. As with many things in life, sometimes you only get what you're willing to pay for for a product.

Holsters are an important part of the total investment in a handgun which is going to be carried on the person and not just transported to the range in a case. Not everyone may look at it in that perspective, though.

The anticipated activities and needs of the user have to be taken into account, too. Someone choosing to carry a handgun as a hunting weapon may have different needs than someone who is going to carry the handgun as a service weapon, in either military or LE roles, and folks engaged in competitive/sporting pursuits may have different needs altogether depending on their chosen venues and equipment rules.

A holster is more than a 'pocket' that is handy to carry a belted handgun around. It needs to be able to do so safely and securely ... provide suitable protection for the gun ... fit the user when it comes to garment & belt choices ... be suitable for the activities that will be encountered ... and provide appropriate access to the gun under the conditions, situations and circumstances envisioned or considered possible.

Handgun training classes that list a requirement of a belt holster and the ability to have (and likely carry) a total of 3 magazines may involve classroom time and attention spent on making sure the user is suitably familiar and competent in drawing and presenting a handgun from a good quality holster intended for defensive carry, and may well require demonstration of this familiarity, knowledge and some foundation level of competence. Why not ask and spare yourself any potential distraction or difficulty when it comes to having a suitable holster for the class in which you've invested your time and money?

Attending a defensive handgun class, especially at the intermediate or advanced levels, will likely involve a lot of drawing and firing while learning and repetitively performing drills from the holster. Being able to safely and easily reholster is just as important as drawing, too, and a well designed, good quality holster can really help in this regard. This is where the idea of the handgun and holster being equally important and integral components of the defensive handgun carry concept comes into play.

I still have some belt holsters for some handguns I used to favor carrying in the backwoods. I'd not consider many of them suitable for defensive carry purpose where speed was a factor, and I'd not consider them "optimally appropriate" for defensive handgun training venues and related skill drill scenarios.

This is why asking questions ahead of time of the people teaching the class might be handy when selecting the equipment to take to the class.

[spacecoast]

Thanks fastbolt, that's a good and helpful summary.

The course description wasn't very detailed, here, it is:

Shooting at the range and shooting in a life and death situation, are 2 completely different things. This pistol course will guide you through the basics of utilizing your firearm under stress conditions. Beginning with a classroom lecture on safety, situational awareness, tactical planning and a short review of topics covered in our fighting pistol courses. Covers mental conditioning, stance, drawing, mastering trigger control, mastering recoil, stress fire, tactical target engagement and speed sighting.
Ammunition Required: 300-400 rounds
Prerequisites: All students must have a concealed weapons permit and have successfully completed one of our basic 4 hour handgun classes (or similar class).
Additional Equipment: Baseball cap, food and drinks, elbow and knee pads, along with clothing that will allow for work on the ground (no open top shoes or v neck tops).

I asked for more information when I signed up for it in July, but they only got around to sending out the equipment list (which included a belt holster, at least 3 mags and a mag pouch) on Monday, for a Saturday morning course That doesn't give a working person a great deal of time to prepare. No details were given on the type of holster needed, but even if mine is not optimal I bet they will still be happy to take my $200. My plan is to go and make the best of it, I'm sure the end result will be somewhere between the best and worst outcomes possible.

Good news -

It does appear that configuring this as a thumb break holster is pretty easy, and I now see the utility of doing so and also of positioning the strap over the end of the slide. When I lay my hand on the grip my thumb naturally falls on the snap. The image below is mirror reversed (I'm a righty) but this is what it looks like with my P95 (sans magazine):



I will spend some time tonight and tomorrow practicing quickly unsnapping the rig with my thumb and pulling the pistol, as well as replacement.

Thanks a lot for the words of wisdom.

[old bear]

A proper fitting holster and belt is the most important accessory anyone who carries a gun can have. Yes they can be gosh awful expensive but a good rig will last you for years, so don’t scrimp.

I always felt that the Bianchi or SafariLand thumb break, with a FBI forward rake worked well for uniform carry. With practice the following will became second nature… extend your thumb 90 deg., keeping your index finger straight then as you begin to draw your weapon the thumb will break the retaining snap, drop straight down onto the left side of the grip the last three fingers will wrap around the grip and lastly as your gun is leaving the holster your index finger can be inserted into the trigger guard. Then snap your elbow to your side and you are ready to point shoot or use a swing or rocking movement to bring your weapon up to a full sighted shooting stance.

Best of luck with the class.

[fastbolt]

You're welcome. Glad the comments were useful to get you to thinking about it.

They'll probably discuss it during the class, but bear in mind that holstering is an important and potentially dangerous action. There are a couple of unpleasant things that can happen if someone isn't paying attention, familiar with their holster or hasn't practiced safe and proper holstering.

One is that if the person is inattentive they might have their index finger catch on the holster mouth and be diverted inside the trigger guard while the gun is being shoved into the holster. BANG.

The other is having the outside strap of the thumb break, or a part of an outer garment (if worn) such as a draw string or the leading corner of a shirt or jacket, get caught up inside the trigger guard during holstering. Another potential BANG situation.

Holstering deserves attention and practice. During some advanced training it's taught that holstering without having to turn and look at the holster is preferable. It's a difficult skill and takes time to develop and master, but as you might imagine, there can be circumstances when it might be useful. Kind of like being able to reach for your wallet and then put in back in your pocket without having to turn and look.

Stay safe in the class and enjoy it.

While being on the right end of any shooting line gives you the opportunity to get showered by brass, most folks (85%?) are right-handed and seem to sweep the people to their left with their muzzles during loading and puzzling situations.

[pax]

spacecoast,

Now that you have your generic holster, step into a local gun shop and pick up a cheap Fobus holster that fits one of the guns. The Fobus won't hold up in the long term either, but unlike the nylon holster you've chosen, it won't prevent you from learning what you need to learn during class.

(Not trying to be snarky -- honestly not! And Fastbolt has given you some excellent advice. But that inexpensive nylon holster may not last throughout the class, and even if it does it's likely to be a problem in one of several ways. Supplement it with another inexpensive option of a different design, and save up for a good holster that will be safe & reliable.)

pax

[EricReynolds]

Wow, this is ironic. I have a P94 and the same Uncle Mike's holster you have there. I used it for the class to receive my armed security license and it was fine for that, but I did eventually get the Galco Cop 3 which is custom molded to your gun. I think you'd like it. I use it as my duty holster and it works great. I also initially had confusion over which side the thumb break should be. At first I configured it to be on the side opposite the body and got used to it. Just a bad habit, but when I switched it to the other side, the thumb break being close to the body makes for a more natural draw.

[spacecoast]

Eric -

Thanks for the feedback. This holster is actually made by KNJ out of Arizona, but is undoubtedly similar to UM's. I practiced for a while in front of the mirror last night and I think it's going to be fine, the holster unsnaps and the gun slides out easily and quickly. Undoubtedly 5 years of very heavy Blackberry strong-side holster use has been beneficial in imprinting the necessary muscle memory on me. The Blackberry may even be tougher to get out, lacking the convenient handle

Now that you have your generic holster, step into a local gun shop and pick up a cheap Fobus holster that fits one of the guns

Thanks pax, I will do that. Believe it or not, the local gun shop suggested this one, even with a plethora of more expensive holsters on the wall.

[pax]

spacecoast,

I believe it, especially if you told them that one of your criteria was, "Fits both guns." The Fobus will only fit one of your firearms. However, a holster that is molded to fit a specific firearm usually holds that firearm securely without a thumb break or strap -- and that can help you focus on the class itself rather than having to fight your equipment while you try to learn. If you do decide to track down a Fobus today, make sure it's a belt holster rather than a paddle holster and you should be in the best possible shape within the timeline & budget you're working with (look for something like this holster). If you can't find one that's not a paddle holster, stick with what you've got.

pax

[jfruser]

spacecoast:

There is a holster type that is both quality and fits different weapons. It is called a "belt slide."

Galco produces two of these sorts.

The Yaqui Slide:
http://www.usgalco.com/HolsterPG3.as...=1233&GunID=85
Models YAQ202, YAQ202B, YAQ203, YAQ203B

The JAK Slide:
http://www.usgalco.com/HolsterPG3.as...D=643&GunID=85
Models JAK202, JAK202B, JAK203, JAK203B


(Both of the above are listed for the P95. Given the P345's dimensions, I'd bet it would fit, too...especially the Yaqui.)

My wife owns a Yaqui for her Officer's sized 1911 and it works for any 1911 as well as many, many other semi-autos with similar slide and grip characteristics. My wife has lent it out to lots of ladies who arrived without a suitable holster.

I fear any more $$$ spend on nylon/plastic cheapie holsters will be toilet-bound. The above two (plus a quality gun belt--also available from Galco) offer both versatility and quality without having to buy separate holsters for each gun.

And you won't do what pax said: fight your equipment while trying to learn.

Unless you are doing hand-stands, a thumb snap is not really necessary for most CCWs.

Good luck, whatever your decision.

[azredhawk44]

Spacecoast:

I tend to call that kind of holster a "gun bucket."

They're good for people that feel they need something to put their gun into, to and from the public range, where they stand sedately and shoot at stationary targets.

It just won't serve as a true proper holster.

A typical gun costs $400-$600. Accessories for that gun will cost you another $100-$300 (or more for more dedicated shooters), depending on your tastes (how many extra magazines, how many magazine carriers, do you need a new gun belt, etc).

Drawbacks to that holster:
-When you draw, the weight of the gun and floppiness of the holster point your LOADED gun at your thigh.
-The spare magazine is on the wrong side. You can't get to it with your support hand.
-The spare magazine is oriented in the wrong direction. It requires tactile and/or visible examination to orient for insertion into the gun.
-It will slide around on your belt, varying from 2 o'clock to 5 o'clock.
-When re-holstering, the retention strap can make its way into the trigger guard and DISCHARGE THE GUN.

Do yourself a favor and get something more suitable to real firearms training.

http://www.shado.com

These guys were some of the first holsters I tried out when I got into firearms. They're inexpensive, but sturdy. The Sable Leather Belt Holster design they have is only $35.

Friends don't let friends use cheap gun-bucket holsters for anything close to resembling training, a match, or self defense. It's dangerous to others around you as well as to yourself.

[spacecoast]

The spare magazine is on the wrong side.

Not sure I follow. The spare mag is on the front of the holster where I can reach around the front and get it. Moreover, I don't plan on using it tomorrow since I only have 3 mags - one for the gun and two in a separate mag pouch on the other side. Were I to have a 4th mag I would have put it there. I have checked the mag orientation in the separate pouches and feel comfortable that I will be able to change them pretty quickly, although I haven't practiced it 10,000 times.

It will slide around on your belt, varying from 2 o'clock to 5 o'clock

My belt loops limit travel from about 0100 to 0300.

When re-holstering, the retention strap can make its way into the trigger guard and DISCHARGE THE GUN

I'll be careful, I'll try to not be like Barney Fife tomorow.

Thanks for all the tips, hopefully I will be out of the hospital and able to write a report by Sunday at the latest.

[Don P]

A thumb break holster is just that. While you are place your hand on your handgun you break open the thumb break with you thumb, up and out of the holster. Curious was the thumb break holster a requirement for this particular class or your choice?

[spacecoast]

Don -

The thumb break was not required, and in fact got in the way for today's training, but I removed it and got along fine. See the story I posted at

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=423585

[Ridge_Runner_5]

Galco M4X is plastic, and when you reach to grab the weapon, your thumb hits a lever that releases the retention device, which is another lever that wraps around where the chamber meets the slide.