Combo gun that also supports two rifle or two shotgun barrels?

maagister · May 31, 2019, 02:15 PM

Does such a beast exist? I like the concept of the combo gun, but I'm wondering if it's also possible to configure it as a O/U shotgun or double rifle (technically not a combo gun at that point). Thanks!

Doyle · May 31, 2019, 02:24 PM

Drillings ( two shotgun barrels and one rifle barrels) exist but are antiquated, rare, and expensive - besides being almost useless in practical use. Producing a quality double barreled shotgun is expensive. Producing a quality double rifle is VERY expensive.

Jim Watson · May 31, 2019, 03:57 PM

The Valmet O/U was made shot/shot, rifle/rifle, rifle/shot.

Here is an outfit that will set one up like you want.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...n_id=100519419

Bart B. · June 1, 2019, 07:29 AM

Winchester 21 double barrel shotguns have been rebarreled to 45-70 double rifles.

Shotgun ammo has a maximum peak pressure about 15,000 psi. Proof loads have about 21,000 psi. Few shotgun doubles have actions capable of safely using rifle ammo producing 30,000 psi and higher.

T. O'Heir · June 1, 2019, 12:42 PM

"...not a combo gun at that point..." Neither is an O/U shotgun.
In the old days, NEF/H&R single shot Handy Rifles could be fitted with shotgun barrels. At extra cost and only in the factory. However, like many things these days, it'll depend on how much money you want to spend. There's no reason a Savage 24 or even a SxS shotgun couldn't be fitted with any barrel you want. Keeping in mind that double rifle barrels by themselves are scarce and really expensive. The technology of regulating(making 'em shoot to the same POI) is an art.
There are lots of drillings available on the assorted auction sites. Nearly all of 'em are made in Germany. Blaser USA, Inc. makes 'em too. Some of 'em run under a grand US, but most run around 3 grand.

Art Eatman · June 1, 2019, 12:43 PM

My objection to a drilling is the weight. They're heavier than the usual full-size hunting rifle. True for me, anyway, since I was usually a walking hunter with many multi-mile treks.

maagister · June 1, 2019, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

The Valmet O/U was made shot/shot, rifle/rifle, rifle/shot.

Here is an outfit that will set one up like you want.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...n_id=100519419

The Finn 612 SC, made by Marocchi of all people. Appears this is almost exactly what I had in mind. The downside is that with double triggers it's $2k, and the rifle caliber options are limited. But thanks for the info!

stinkeypete · June 1, 2019, 02:32 PM

I have my great grandfather’s 12 gauge / 7.62x mmR side by side and took a deer with it about 15 years ago.

As it was made in 1893, powder puff loads were used with Nosler Ballistic Tips (which expanded textbook even at 750 FPS)

While it made me feel good that my great grandfather’s old gun was back in the field, the joy of carrying the old hand checkered walnut and beautiful old style long barrels quickly gave way to an appreciation that the thing weighs more than a post hole digger. It gets heavier and heavier as the day wears on.

I came to realize that the idea of a gun that could be a shotgun or rifle depending on what one came across transforms in to “I am lugging around not a very good shotgun and not a very good single shot rifle.”

How about taking a double barrel 12 gauge and simply slipping in a couple of converters to .44 special? Some of the new designs are said to reach as high as “not horrible at 25 yards.”

At least then one has a nice shotgun and only a couple hundred bucks are out trying to make something that would never be as pleasant to use and not even in the same ball park for accuracy as a low end Savage rifle.

Me? For a while I was using a single shot Stevens shotgun and carrying a .22 pistol in my pocket or a Contender carbine in 30-30. Either setup weighs a third of my Grandpa’s grand old gun.

It’s a great idea, but the idea just can’t be implemented for less than the cost of a nice truck.

std7mag · June 2, 2019, 07:39 AM

I saw a 16/16/222 Rem drilling made in WV go at auction for $1,200.

Might be an ok fall turkey gun. Not sure i'd want to carry the weight though.

Ricklin · June 2, 2019, 08:28 AM

There are a few of the old Savage / Stevens combo guns out there. Most are .22 and 20 ga.
I seem to recall there were a couple models in center fire, like .222 maybe?

Jim Watson · June 2, 2019, 10:31 AM

Quote:

The Finn 612 SC, made by Marocchi of all people. Appears this is almost exactly what I had in mind. The downside is that with double triggers it's $2k, and the rifle caliber options are limited.

The ad I linked is for a 512SC combo. Unusual that they charge extra for double triggers, is that what you want? I don't know of anything around here that something off their caliber list would not handle. $2000 seems cheap for a big game combo, you could pay more for an antique in an odd caliber.

Quote:

I saw a 16/16/222 Rem drilling made in WV

The Three Barrel Gun Company of West Virginia was long gone by the time the .222 came out. I wonder if this is Something Else or a conversion.

FITASC · June 2, 2019, 12:21 PM

If you want it all, it can be made; guys like Hofer in Austria can build one gun that has all four barrels on it at the same time (vierling)

Plenty of O/U combination guns where one barrel if for rifle cartridge and one for shotgun.

Drillings can be made with 2 rifle barrels and one shotgun barrel or the other way around
many English made gun where there separate shotgun barrels and separate rifle barrels that fit on the same 20 gauge sized frame.

Jim Watson · June 2, 2019, 12:34 PM

The legend I learned was that in early days, the aristocrats shot driven game and a combination gun let them have a caliber/gauge suitable for anything that went by the stand.

In modern times, a combination gun lets you have a lot of capability for only one entry on your license. (When I first saw that one, you could pretty readily license five guns in Germany. More got tough.)

FITASC · June 2, 2019, 03:59 PM

Many European areas still do mixed bag hunts/shoots - typically for boar, stag, pheasant and hare

wachtelhund1 · June 2, 2019, 08:21 PM

I have a Valmet 412, 12 gauge 3" over .223 Rem for coyote calling. Great gun! Single selective trigger. Zero scope with the shot barrel using either shot or slugs at 40 yards. Then tweak the rifle barrel so it hits dead center using the scope reticle at 100 yards. Sounds difficult, but it is very easy. Elevation adjustment is under the forearm, move it forward or back to change elevation point of impact. Windage adjustment is at the end of the barrels. The 512s and 612 s are basically the same.

FITASC · June 2, 2019, 09:49 PM

The Valmets and their Tikka cousins are vastly under-rated, IMO

Jim Watson · June 2, 2019, 11:23 PM

Too bad nobody makes a Paradox any more. I once admired a Westley Richards Faunetta, 20 bore on the Paradox system. I don't know what I would have done with it, but it sure looked good.

TimW77 · June 3, 2019, 08:04 AM

Don't forget about the "Vierling" with 4 barrels and others...

FITASC · June 3, 2019, 11:27 AM

Mods - this will be HUGE and I apologize upfront - don't know how to resize: so please do so to make it conform better - TIA!

FITASC · June 3, 2019, 11:29 AM

FITASC · June 3, 2019, 11:30 AM

wachtelhund1 · June 3, 2019, 12:45 PM

The drilling's and vierling's are nice if you have a gunbearer! In Europe the 16 gauge was popular because it reduced the weight of these guns. The single shotgun and rifle combos were also popular for being lighter guns. They were called bockbuchsflinte. All three types are still used in Europe.

I have two of the combo guns. A Sabbiti 12 gauge over 6.5X57R, double trigger with 26" barrels. It a beautiful gun with engraved side panels, its only draw back is the barrels are completely soldered and can not be regulated like the Valmet/Tikka/Marrochi's.

I like my Valmet 412 because I can zero my scope for the shotgun pattern at 40 yards and then regulate the rifle barrel to hit where the scope is aimed at 100 yards. It also has a lite crisp trigger. The barrels are 23.5", a bit on the short side, but very useable. My 12ga loads are Federal Gold Metal hulls, 2 3/4". Loaded to 1 1/4 oz. with 60 BBB lead shot at 1385 fps. These will place 8 to 14 pellets in a 10" paper plate at 40 yards. The .223 rem barrel shoots 55 gr bullets at sub MOA.

The Valmet 412's come up for sale occasionally in online auctions. Valmet also made this system for Savage years ago called Savage/Valmet, 330 and 2400. The 330's were o/u shotguns and the 2400's were combo guns. The barrels can be used on either receivers. There is a 2400, 12ga over 22HP, https://www.gunbroker.com/item/804127171 currently on gunbroker for $700.00. And A Valmet 412, 12 ga over 22HP, https://www.gunbroker.com/item/816108123, for $900.00. Which are good prices for a combo varmint gun. The combo barrels come in many different calibers. More common calibers bring higher prices.

FITASC · June 3, 2019, 03:02 PM

I have handled and shot a few drillings - most were pre war made, post war bring backs that handled and shot very well; I handled, but did not shoot, 1 vierling which was also 16 gauge x 2, plus 22 hornet (IIRC) and a 8x57R (again, IIRC)
It was surprising light and well balanced, albeit the barrels were good for rifle and a tad short for shotgun - about 24" (whatever the metric equal is)

If you take a drilling with 2 shotgun barrels and a rifle barrel and use the adapter to make one shotgun barrel for .22lr, you have a .22, a 20/16/12, and you have a big game centerfire on the order of a 7 or 8 mm R cartridge. While afield, you can hunt rabbits, birds and bar/stag sized animals with one gun..........
Not a shabby arrangement

mapsjanhere · June 3, 2019, 04:27 PM

Baikal makes a full set of double rifle/rifle-shotgun/double barrel shotgun, and it's reasonably priced.

denster · June 4, 2019, 05:51 AM

BRNO made an over under that could be had with multiple gauge shotgun barrels and multi caliber rifle barrels. These were popular in countries that restricted the number of firearms that could be owned as it only constituted one firearm regardless of how many barrel sets you owned. After the fall of the iron curtain they were imported into this country for several years as single gauge/caliber guns or as sets with multiple barrels. As a tribute to Check ingenuity the gun was nice looking with quality wood and was completely user serviceable and solid as a rock. The guns and barrels still show up on gunbroker. Interesting that any set of barrels will fit any frame with no fitting required.

May 31, 2019, 02:15 PM	#1
maagister Junior Member Join Date: April 10, 2011 Posts: 6	Combo gun that also supports two rifle or two shotgun barrels? Does such a beast exist? I like the concept of the combo gun, but I'm wondering if it's also possible to configure it as a O/U shotgun or double rifle (technically not a combo gun at that point). Thanks!

June 1, 2019, 07:29 AM	#4
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Winchester 21 double barrel shotguns have been rebarreled to 45-70 double rifles. Shotgun ammo has a maximum peak pressure about 15,000 psi. Proof loads have about 21,000 psi. Few shotgun doubles have actions capable of safely using rifle ammo producing 30,000 psi and higher. Last edited by Bart B.; June 1, 2019 at 07:47 AM.

June 1, 2019, 12:42 PM	#5
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...not a combo gun at that point..." Neither is an O/U shotgun. In the old days, NEF/H&R single shot Handy Rifles could be fitted with shotgun barrels. At extra cost and only in the factory. However, like many things these days, it'll depend on how much money you want to spend. There's no reason a Savage 24 or even a SxS shotgun couldn't be fitted with any barrel you want. Keeping in mind that double rifle barrels by themselves are scarce and really expensive. The technology of regulating(making 'em shoot to the same POI) is an art. There are lots of drillings available on the assorted auction sites. Nearly all of 'em are made in Germany. Blaser USA, Inc. makes 'em too. Some of 'em run under a grand US, but most run around 3 grand. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

June 2, 2019, 07:39 AM	#9
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	I saw a 16/16/222 Rem drilling made in WV go at auction for $1,200. Might be an ok fall turkey gun. Not sure i'd want to carry the weight though. __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

June 2, 2019, 08:28 AM	#10
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,011	A few There are a few of the old Savage / Stevens combo guns out there. Most are .22 and 20 ga. I seem to recall there were a couple models in center fire, like .222 maybe? __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

May 31, 2019, 02:24 PM	#2
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	Drillings ( two shotgun barrels and one rifle barrels) exist but are antiquated, rare, and expensive - besides being almost useless in practical use. Producing a quality double barreled shotgun is expensive. Producing a quality double rifle is VERY expensive.

May 31, 2019, 03:57 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,537	The Valmet O/U was made shot/shot, rifle/rifle, rifle/shot. Here is an outfit that will set one up like you want. https://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...n_id=100519419

June 1, 2019, 12:43 PM	#6
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	My objection to a drilling is the weight. They're heavier than the usual full-size hunting rifle. True for me, anyway, since I was usually a walking hunter with many multi-mile treks.

June 1, 2019, 02:32 PM	#8
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,292	I have my great grandfather’s 12 gauge / 7.62x mmR side by side and took a deer with it about 15 years ago. As it was made in 1893, powder puff loads were used with Nosler Ballistic Tips (which expanded textbook even at 750 FPS) While it made me feel good that my great grandfather’s old gun was back in the field, the joy of carrying the old hand checkered walnut and beautiful old style long barrels quickly gave way to an appreciation that the thing weighs more than a post hole digger. It gets heavier and heavier as the day wears on. I came to realize that the idea of a gun that could be a shotgun or rifle depending on what one came across transforms in to “I am lugging around not a very good shotgun and not a very good single shot rifle.” How about taking a double barrel 12 gauge and simply slipping in a couple of converters to .44 special? Some of the new designs are said to reach as high as “not horrible at 25 yards.” At least then one has a nice shotgun and only a couple hundred bucks are out trying to make something that would never be as pleasant to use and not even in the same ball park for accuracy as a low end Savage rifle. Me? For a while I was using a single shot Stevens shotgun and carrying a .22 pistol in my pocket or a Contender carbine in 30-30. Either setup weighs a third of my Grandpa’s grand old gun. It’s a great idea, but the idea just can’t be implemented for less than the cost of a nice truck.

June 2, 2019, 12:21 PM	#12
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	If you want it all, it can be made; guys like Hofer in Austria can build one gun that has all four barrels on it at the same time (vierling) Plenty of O/U combination guns where one barrel if for rifle cartridge and one for shotgun. Drillings can be made with 2 rifle barrels and one shotgun barrel or the other way around many English made gun where there separate shotgun barrels and separate rifle barrels that fit on the same 20 gauge sized frame. __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

June 2, 2019, 12:34 PM	#13
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,537	The legend I learned was that in early days, the aristocrats shot driven game and a combination gun let them have a caliber/gauge suitable for anything that went by the stand. In modern times, a combination gun lets you have a lot of capability for only one entry on your license. (When I first saw that one, you could pretty readily license five guns in Germany. More got tough.)

June 2, 2019, 03:59 PM	#14
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	Many European areas still do mixed bag hunts/shoots - typically for boar, stag, pheasant and hare __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

June 2, 2019, 08:21 PM	#15
wachtelhund1 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2007 Location: pelican lake, WI Posts: 413	I have a Valmet 412, 12 gauge 3" over .223 Rem for coyote calling. Great gun! Single selective trigger. Zero scope with the shot barrel using either shot or slugs at 40 yards. Then tweak the rifle barrel so it hits dead center using the scope reticle at 100 yards. Sounds difficult, but it is very easy. Elevation adjustment is under the forearm, move it forward or back to change elevation point of impact. Windage adjustment is at the end of the barrels. The 512s and 612 s are basically the same.

June 2, 2019, 09:49 PM	#16
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	The Valmets and their Tikka cousins are vastly under-rated, IMO __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

June 2, 2019, 11:23 PM	#17
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,537	Too bad nobody makes a Paradox any more. I once admired a Westley Richards Faunetta, 20 bore on the Paradox system. I don't know what I would have done with it, but it sure looked good.

June 3, 2019, 08:04 AM	#18
TimW77 Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2008 Posts: 485	Don't forget about the "Vierling" with 4 barrels and others...

June 3, 2019, 11:27 AM	#19
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	Mods - this will be HUGE and I apologize upfront - don't know how to resize: so please do so to make it conform better - TIA! __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

June 3, 2019, 11:29 AM	#20
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	__________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

June 3, 2019, 11:30 AM	#21
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	__________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

June 3, 2019, 12:45 PM	#22
wachtelhund1 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2007 Location: pelican lake, WI Posts: 413	The drilling's and vierling's are nice if you have a gunbearer! In Europe the 16 gauge was popular because it reduced the weight of these guns. The single shotgun and rifle combos were also popular for being lighter guns. They were called bockbuchsflinte. All three types are still used in Europe. I have two of the combo guns. A Sabbiti 12 gauge over 6.5X57R, double trigger with 26" barrels. It a beautiful gun with engraved side panels, its only draw back is the barrels are completely soldered and can not be regulated like the Valmet/Tikka/Marrochi's. I like my Valmet 412 because I can zero my scope for the shotgun pattern at 40 yards and then regulate the rifle barrel to hit where the scope is aimed at 100 yards. It also has a lite crisp trigger. The barrels are 23.5", a bit on the short side, but very useable. My 12ga loads are Federal Gold Metal hulls, 2 3/4". Loaded to 1 1/4 oz. with 60 BBB lead shot at 1385 fps. These will place 8 to 14 pellets in a 10" paper plate at 40 yards. The .223 rem barrel shoots 55 gr bullets at sub MOA. The Valmet 412's come up for sale occasionally in online auctions. Valmet also made this system for Savage years ago called Savage/Valmet, 330 and 2400. The 330's were o/u shotguns and the 2400's were combo guns. The barrels can be used on either receivers. There is a 2400, 12ga over 22HP, https://www.gunbroker.com/item/804127171 currently on gunbroker for $700.00. And A Valmet 412, 12 ga over 22HP, https://www.gunbroker.com/item/816108123, for $900.00. Which are good prices for a combo varmint gun. The combo barrels come in many different calibers. More common calibers bring higher prices. Last edited by wachtelhund1; June 3, 2019 at 12:57 PM.

June 3, 2019, 03:02 PM	#23
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	I have handled and shot a few drillings - most were pre war made, post war bring backs that handled and shot very well; I handled, but did not shoot, 1 vierling which was also 16 gauge x 2, plus 22 hornet (IIRC) and a 8x57R (again, IIRC) It was surprising light and well balanced, albeit the barrels were good for rifle and a tad short for shotgun - about 24" (whatever the metric equal is) If you take a drilling with 2 shotgun barrels and a rifle barrel and use the adapter to make one shotgun barrel for .22lr, you have a .22, a 20/16/12, and you have a big game centerfire on the order of a 7 or 8 mm R cartridge. While afield, you can hunt rabbits, birds and bar/stag sized animals with one gun.......... Not a shabby arrangement __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

June 3, 2019, 04:27 PM	#24
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Baikal makes a full set of double rifle/rifle-shotgun/double barrel shotgun, and it's reasonably priced. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

June 4, 2019, 05:51 AM	#25
denster Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 581	BRNO made an over under that could be had with multiple gauge shotgun barrels and multi caliber rifle barrels. These were popular in countries that restricted the number of firearms that could be owned as it only constituted one firearm regardless of how many barrel sets you owned. After the fall of the iron curtain they were imported into this country for several years as single gauge/caliber guns or as sets with multiple barrels. As a tribute to Check ingenuity the gun was nice looking with quality wood and was completely user serviceable and solid as a rock. The guns and barrels still show up on gunbroker. Interesting that any set of barrels will fit any frame with no fitting required.