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Old February 13, 2021, 12:38 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
Yes, a repeated failure to perceive why anybody would like something that doesn't fit your own personal situation. You are trying to understand a community set of values but ONLY through the filter of what you value as important. You haven't been asking why people like PCCs in the context of their own situations, but how could people like them when you don't perceive any use for them because you have compensated for many of the same things in other manners.

It is sort of like saying you don't understand why a person would drive a pickup truck when you have an SUV and a trailer. Other people's opinions and buying decisions weren't ever going to factor in your perspective.
Well said
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Old February 13, 2021, 01:09 PM   #27
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I’m also really pretty good with a handgun (i compete a lot) so i don’t see a lot of accuracy gains from PCCs. I even beat some experienced PCC shooters with an iron sighted handgun in my last match.
But i guess i am beginning to understand the appeal. They’re just not a great choice for me in particular.
I would not use that as a litmus test. In a match last summer I beat guys shooting PCC's with a revolver.
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Old February 13, 2021, 01:12 PM   #28
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Who remembers the Marlin Camp Carbines of 25 years ago? Those were super sweet little carbines with nice wooden stocks, chambered in 9mm and 45ACP. Crazy fun to shoot.
I also have a camp carbine in 9mm. I love shooting it. At my buds ranch there is a pole on the far side of his pond that used to be there for the catfish feeder. Its about 95 yards from his front porch. We like to ring the pole with it. So far the best is 8 out of 10 shots were hits. The pole is 3" in diameter. So not too bad for off hand shooting with a PCC.

I have shot it out to 200 yards. I believe I can keep all my shots on a mans chest at that range. And it hits harder than you would think. My buds son killed his first deer with the camp carbine. He said it was a pass through shot at 40 yards with blood spurting out both sides. The deer ran 45 yards and dropped. It never made it out of sight. So it could serve as a usable survival gun if needed and is not so loud so as to alert everyone for a mile around.

Its one of the shortest rifles I own. Very handy at around 34" length. And the muzzle blast nothing compared to even a 30-30. I haven't shot it in the dark but I wouldn't think there would be a blinding fireball either. So it should be a decent inside the house SD gun.

I would have one of the new Ruger carbines if the prices weren't so crazy right now. Maybe someday in the future I will get one.
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Old February 13, 2021, 03:38 PM   #29
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Yes, a repeated failure to perceive why anybody would like something that doesn't fit your own personal situation. You are trying to understand a community set of values but ONLY through the filter of what you value as important. You haven't been asking why people like PCCs in the context of their own situations, but how could people like them when you don't perceive any use for them because you have compensated for many of the same things in other manners.

It is sort of like saying you don't understand why a person would drive a pickup truck when you have an SUV and a trailer. Other people's opinions and buying decisions weren't ever going to factor in your perspective.

That’s fair


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Old February 13, 2021, 11:08 PM   #30
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Anyone have suggestions/recommendations for a PCC chambered in .40 S&W?
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Old February 14, 2021, 01:40 AM   #31
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Most of the guns in this category will be braced or unbraced pistols,...
I don't see how you can fairly include pistols (braced or unbraced) in the CARBINE category.

Carbines, by ancient definition are rifles with barrels shorter than the standard (infantry) rifle. That does not mean the barrel has to be short, just shorter than the standard rifle length for that model rifle, as there is no set length that makes something a carbine vs. a rifle.

For example, the German rifle 98 (gewehr 98) has a 29.1" barrel. The carbine 98k (Kar98k) has a 23.6" barrel, longer than most Americans would consider a carbine, but it is a carbine none the less, because it is shorter barreled than the standard infantry rifle.

The M16 is designated a rifle, despite having only a 20" barrel which most folks would consider carbine length. The M4 is a carbine because its barrel is shorter than the M16 "infantry rifle".

No matter the barrel length, one thing rifles and carbines have in common is a buttstock. Intended and made to be fired from the shoulder. A braced pistol, no matter how the brace is actually used, does not have a stock. And, of course an unbraced pistol is just a pistol.

Without a stock, I don't see how you can include it in the carbine category.
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Old February 14, 2021, 09:01 AM   #32
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I have a Just Right Carbine in 9mm that takes Glock mags and have been loving it for 8 years now, it’s just plain fun. I have a load using 147gr bullets at right around 1200fps that should be a pretty effective round out to fifty yds and can easily keep shots in a 3” circle offhand. My wife isn’t a gun person but I figure in a pinch she could very quickly be effective with it and take care of business if necessary. I also have levers and revolvers in both .357 and .41 mag for even more fun.
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Old February 14, 2021, 09:59 AM   #33
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I used pistol caliber carbines as part of my home defense assortment. Over the years, I tried a few different ones. The best for me was a semiauto Norinco Uzi...My rifle club had plates at various ranges from 25yds to 100yds.
I too, am pretty skilled with a pistol, and have often shot those plates with different handguns. But with the Uzi, it was much quicker. Going plate to plate at any range was fast and effortless. The 32rd mags helped, too.
However, at some point, I set the intention to put a GI M1 Carbine into the role the pistol caliber carbine filled. I just love the little M1 Carbine, and I like the .30 Carbine round. I’m using the Hornady Critical Defense load now, but I’d be happy with any old soft point load.
So I get why people might turn to a PCC. Even myself...the Ruger PCC in .40 is pretty attractive to me...
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Old February 14, 2021, 10:45 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
I don't see how you can fairly include pistols (braced or unbraced) in the CARBINE category.

Carbines, by ancient definition are rifles with barrels shorter than the standard (infantry) rifle. That does not mean the barrel has to be short, just shorter than the standard rifle length for that model rifle, as there is no set length that makes something a carbine vs. a rifle.

For example, the German rifle 98 (gewehr 98) has a 29.1" barrel. The carbine 98k (Kar98k) has a 23.6" barrel, longer than most Americans would consider a carbine, but it is a carbine none the less, because it is shorter barreled than the standard infantry rifle.

The M16 is designated a rifle, despite having only a 20" barrel which most folks would consider carbine length. The M4 is a carbine because its barrel is shorter than the M16 "infantry rifle".

No matter the barrel length, one thing rifles and carbines have in common is a buttstock. Intended and made to be fired from the shoulder. A braced pistol, no matter how the brace is actually used, does not have a stock. And, of course an unbraced pistol is just a pistol.

Without a stock, I don't see how you can include it in the carbine category.

Yep it’s a misnomer. There’s whole you tube videos about this misnomer. But it remains true that they are generally categorized as PCCs even though they clearly aren’t carbines.


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Old February 14, 2021, 10:50 AM   #35
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Am I the only one who is not enamored but the new PCC rage?
Probably not, but while the moniker "PCC" may be new, I have been enamored with handgun caliber carbines since my first Ruger Model 44 bought in the late 60s. Wish I never would have traded it, but at the time, a new SxS was more of a priority. Since then I have invested in several handgun caliber carbines. A lever in .357 and .44 mag and a 77/44. All are a hoot to shoot at the range, all are accurate within their parameters and all have taken deer. Reloading makes them inexpensive to shoot a lot at the range and their lower recoil than other bottle necked rifle calibers makes so one can shoot them more comfortably in warm weather. They also are popular with my grand-kids because of their smaller size, lighter weight and lessened recoil. My oldest grand-daughter took her first deer this fall with the 77/44. As for SD/HD they make sense because of their compactness, capacity and with the new designs and technology in calibers like 9mm, bullets have exceptional terminal performance.
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Old February 14, 2021, 11:09 AM   #36
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If you don't like them, then ignore them and don't start posts on them. Others do, and IMHO, all trigger time is good time, so yes. I am sure several have articulated why they like them, even prefer them.

It's not like if your friend has a PCC he is any better or worse than you and your choices. Let's act like Americans while we still can.
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Old February 14, 2021, 11:24 AM   #37
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CMMG is currently the front runner for me for this purchase decision! :-)
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Old February 14, 2021, 12:38 PM   #38
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Yep it’s a misnomer. There’s whole you tube videos about this misnomer. But it remains true that hey are generally categorized as PCCs even though they clearly aren’t carbines.
You got a link?

Interestingly (again), you disallowed from consideration lever action carbines that clearly are carbines.
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Old February 14, 2021, 12:46 PM   #39
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PCC's are range extenders. They allow a 9mm to go 100 yards with more accuracy than as a pistol alone.
Cheaper to shoot than say 5.56.
Increases muzzle energy by 50% (9mm & 40).

For outdoor work, I'd prefer a rifle caliber. Also, if strictly needed as a range extender, I'd opt for a Micro Roni.
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Old February 14, 2021, 01:03 PM   #40
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My PCC was made in 1943. It has a 15 round detachable magazine, operates super reliably and is as much reviled for being underpowered as it is loved for being easy to shoot. M1Carbine baby. As far as I can tell, the PCC concept has been around for precisely as long as the self contained metallic cartridge. As soon as there was one, there was the other. Hell the original levergun, the Volcanic, used what was basically a pistol round. It was underpowered as all hell and terrified those it was pointed at. Is there a fad today? Yeah because people just awakened to the fact that PCC's have become so much more awesome than they once were. Doesn't make them illegitimate or unuseful.
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Old February 14, 2021, 01:03 PM   #41
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I’m also really pretty good with a handgun (i compete a lot) so i don’t see a lot of accuracy gains from PCCs.
I would bet that >99.9% of shooters will see a vast improvement in hits and speed while using a PCC versus a handgun
In fact, the less experience a shooter has, the better they do using a PCC versus a handgun
As I've said here before, I specifically recommend PCC's to new shooters, and try to dissuade them from a handgun

One of the biggest shining points of a PCC is how you can take a novice, and with very little practice...
You can have them making better and faster hits than an experienced pistol shooter
I've seen many an ego crushed by novice shooters using a PCC

I too have shot competitively for decades, local/state/national, including Master and High Master at NPSC for a number of years
And guess what... I will beat myself if I run a PCC through similar scenarios
Shoulder fired, low recoil weapons will do that
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Old February 14, 2021, 01:09 PM   #42
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My PCC was made in 1943. It has a 15 round detachable magazine, operates super reliably and is as much reviled for being underpowered as it is loved for being easy to shoot. M1Carbine baby.
The 30 Carbine isn't a pistol caliber
It was designed as and has always been a rifle cartridge

But yes the Carbine does in fact shoot similar to a PCC
Light, fast, low recoil, and relatively little blast compared to other service rifle cartridges

If one goes back and does some reading on the Light Rifle Program...
You'll find that is exactly what they were after and they succeeded
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Old February 14, 2021, 01:14 PM   #43
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Anyone have suggestions/recommendations for a PCC chambered in .40 S&W?
If I was limited to 40 S&W I would look for a CX4 Storm
One of the best PCC's ever made

Yes they are a bit goofy looking
But they are rock solid, ultra reliable, and shoot wonderfully
Far better than PCC's that are more rifle orientated like the Ruger PC carbine
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Old February 14, 2021, 01:33 PM   #44
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The only Pistol Caliber Carbines that I have any interest in are Lever Action Rifles chambered in big bore revolver cartridges. I'm not a fan of AR Pistols nor PDWs chambered in semiautomatic pistol cartridges, simply because I personally cannot find a practical use for one. For Home Defense I would rather have something more powerful and for everyday carry I would rather have a pistol. I know that some folks like to keep them in their vehicles, but I wouldn't be comfortable doing that, nor can I think of a realistic scenario in which I would be able to deploy it as quickly or easily as a pistol if the need should arise.

However, self-defense is a personal choice, and I do not subscribe to lofty ideals such as the existence of a perfect, one-size-fits-all platform for self-defense, so what's right for me isn't right for everyone else or vice-versa, ergo I won't question the choices of others. If folks feel that a PCC/PDW is a good option for their personal protection, then they should get one, train with it, and use it well.
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Old February 14, 2021, 01:42 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Onward Allusion View Post
PCC's are range extenders. They allow a 9mm to go 100 yards with more accuracy than as a pistol alone.
Cheaper to shoot than say 5.56.
Increases muzzle energy by 50% (9mm & 40).

For outdoor work, I'd prefer a rifle caliber. Also, if strictly needed as a range extender, I'd opt for a Micro Roni.

Good points


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Old February 14, 2021, 01:43 PM   #46
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My PCC was made in 1943. It has a 15 round detachable magazine, operates super reliably and is as much reviled for being underpowered as it is loved for being easy to shoot. M1Carbine baby. As far as I can tell, the PCC concept has been around for precisely as long as the self contained metallic cartridge. As soon as there was one, there was the other. Hell the original levergun, the Volcanic, used what was basically a pistol round. It was underpowered as all hell and terrified those it was pointed at. Is there a fad today? Yeah because people just awakened to the fact that PCC's have become so much more awesome than they once were. Doesn't make them illegitimate or unuseful.

Also good points


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Old February 14, 2021, 02:35 PM   #47
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While I don’t own one yet. I think a PCC with a good sling and magazine would be ideal for home defense.

AR in 300 BO would be ok, but blast would be a lot indoors.

I would love as high cap Mp5 type rifle in 45 auto!
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Old February 14, 2021, 02:51 PM   #48
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Am I the only one who is not enamored but the new PCC rage?

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Originally Posted by TBM900 View Post
I would bet that >99.9% of shooters will see a vast improvement in hits and speed while using a PCC versus a handgun
In fact, the less experience a shooter has, the better they do using a PCC versus a handgun
As I've said here before, I specifically recommend PCC's to new shooters, and try to dissuade them from a handgun

One of the biggest shining points of a PCC is how you can take a novice, and with very little practice...
You can have them making better and faster hits than an experienced pistol shooter
I've seen many an ego crushed by novice shooters using a PCC

I too have shot competitively for decades, local/state/national, including Master and High Master at NPSC for a number of years
And guess what... I will beat myself if I run a PCC through similar scenarios
Shoulder fired, low recoil weapons will do that

I agree. My wife is a middling shot with a pistol due to her rather small hands making it difficult for her to use the grips of many pistols. She practically can’t miss with the Stribog I have.

As for myself, with the same Stribog I can sit on a bench and hit the 200 yd plates with ease. I frankly can’t do that nearly as well with a pistol. At more practical self defense ranges I still shoot much better with the Stribog than a conventional pistol. I have more points of contact with the firearm, the weight of the firearm relative to the cartridge reduces the recoil, I can have a light and red dot mounted in an easy to use manner,and I have larger capacity magazines by default. I can maintain the same groups with noticeably less effort.


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Old February 14, 2021, 04:31 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Forte S+W View Post
The only Pistol Caliber Carbines that I have any interest in are Lever Action Rifles chambered in big bore revolver cartridges. I'm not a fan of AR Pistols nor PDWs chambered in semiautomatic pistol cartridges, simply because I personally cannot find a practical use for one. For Home Defense I would rather have something more powerful and for everyday carry I would rather have a pistol. I know that some folks like to keep them in their vehicles, but I wouldn't be comfortable doing that, nor can I think of a realistic scenario in which I would be able to deploy it as quickly or easily as a pistol if the need should arise.

However, self-defense is a personal choice, and I do not subscribe to lofty ideals such as the existence of a perfect, one-size-fits-all platform for self-defense, so what's right for me isn't right for everyone else or vice-versa, ergo I won't question the choices of others. If folks feel that a PCC/PDW is a good option for their personal protection, then they should get one, train with it, and use it well.

Yep


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Old February 14, 2021, 06:01 PM   #50
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A long time ago, folks who taught firearms figured out that most people can more easily use a rifle more accurately than a handgun, particularly people with little or no training. The rifle or carbine with its 3 points of contact (both hands and the torso) was simply easier to aim accurately.

somewhere ages ago I read someone stating that it takes 3 times the amount of training/practice to be as good with a handgun as you can be with a rifle (at the appropriate -pistol- ranges). Not sure about 3x but its very clear it takes more training for most people, and a carbine, with its stock is simply easier for people to get hits with than a handgun, until/unless they reach a high level of skill with the pistol.

I can understand excluding lever guns from the PCC discussion, because you wish to focus on semi autos, but one should not exclude them from the PCC category, as they are the original PCCs and their history is not something to ignore.

Lever guns in "pistol" calibers date almost from the first cartridge arms, and .32-20, .38-40, and .44-40 were popular and a mainstay in the latter decades of the 1800s. Interestingly, the .45 Colt was not put into lever guns in those days. Rifle makers of the era felt the small rim of the .45 Colt would not allow reliable operation. Modern .45 Colt brass has a slightly larger rim, and does work well enough in modern lever guns.

The M1 Carbine is a unique case, being designed from the start as a light rifle round, not a pistol round, and being a couple years ahead of the German 7.92x33 round wasn't at first considered an "intermediate" power round that became one of the defining elements of an "assault rifle" but was later included, as the definition of "intermediate" used was the WWII standard of rifle and pistol rounds, and the .30 carbine is less powerful than the standard infantry round of its era (.30-06) and more powerful than the standard pistol rounds (9mm & 45acp)

So, an M1 carbine doesn't properly fit into a "pistol caliber carbine" class.
because while there have been a few .30 Carbine pistols, its not a round considered a "pistol round".
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