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Old December 30, 2015, 12:57 PM   #1
JeepGunny
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Reliability and longevity from caliber and style

Hello all, first let me say that I am brand new to TFL and hope that this post is in the correct spot.

Also, let me introduce myself. I am 21, and ever since I turned 21 I have been a pistol enthusiast. I like to consider myself a decent shot. I can outshoot all of my friends and even an officer in my town. Anyways. I first started my collection with a Beretta 92a1 (9mm), I then got my CCL and bought a Glock 30s (45ACP). I carried the Glock for some time then decided that Glocks are extremely ugly and no Picatinny rail proved to be rather un-tactical with the more common pistol attachments and I purchased an FNH FNS-9. I currently carry the FNS daily when I do not carry the Glock. My wife then complained that the Beretta was a little too big for her hands so I went out an got an FNH FNX-45 tactical for home defense just for the fact that if I ever got a silencer I am ready to go.

THIS IS WHERE THE ACTUAL THREAD TAKES PLACE NO MORE INTRO....


So when we compare "for the sake of equality" a Glock 21 (full size 45) and a Glock 17 (9mm). Which gun will last longer as far as mechanics?

I have heard that while 9mm has more of a high pressure and speed it still puts less strain on the gun as a whole when compared to a 45acp...



Secondly, let's take a look at hammer and striker guns...

I know that striker guns have less moving parts an all we can ignore that fact, however taking just the striker assemblies and the hammer assemblies into account, which one of these two systems would suffer a failure first when keeping in mind that recommended maintanance is being done. Such as the striker sear wearing out, etc ... Or the hammer spring wearing out, etc......... Or ANY other part of that assembly in those guns.


Thank you for taking the time to read this and help me out. I also apologize for any typos and or confusing sentances thanks guys.

Chris
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Old December 30, 2015, 01:10 PM   #2
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JG,

Welcome.

Quote:
So when we compare "for the sake of equality" a Glock 21 (full size 45) and a Glock 17 (9mm). Which gun will last longer as far as mechanics?
I doubt it makes a difference for most shooters, as they won't shoot enough to wear a gun out. But, if you are one of the few that will, it is still relatively immaterial, because the cost of replacement parts or even a new gun will be dwarfed by your ammo expenses.

Quote:
[T]aking just the striker assemblies and the hammer assemblies into account, which one of these two systems would suffer a failure first when keeping in mind that recommended maintanance is being done. Such as the striker sear wearing out, etc ... Or the hammer spring wearing out, etc......... Or ANY other part of that assembly in those guns.
Again, I wouldn't worry about it, because the price of parts is de minimus if you happen to use a gun enough to cause such a failure. Springs are dirt cheap in the overall scheme of things.

I'd ponder how much it might cost you to upgrade a gun. One can easily spend more than the price of the gun in customizing and tuning -- trigger refinements, grips, night sights, holsters, lights and lasers to hang on it, refinishing, etc. If you are an avid shooter, this is the money pit to be wary of; but, it can be fun and worthwhile.
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Old December 30, 2015, 01:15 PM   #3
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Welcome.


You're more likely to sell either before you wear out the weapon or any part.
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Old December 30, 2015, 01:31 PM   #4
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Lin/TXAZ

Thank you both for your input so far.
So from what I have compiled so far from both of your replys is that from the questions so far It is completely up to my personal preference

Well I guess I can start another mini post.

I don't want to start a 45/9 riot post but when comparing the same hollow point 9mm to 45Acp. Which round is more likely to go through and through.

As well as which do you prefer hammer/striker?
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Old December 30, 2015, 02:09 PM   #5
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Quote:
I don't want to start a 45/9 riot post but when comparing the same hollow point 9mm to 45Acp. Which round is more likely to go through and through.

As well as which do you prefer hammer/striker?
Boy, that's one of those Ford vs Chevy/Fender vs Gibson questions

I would think that ammo selection and shot placement has more to do with "through and through" shots than anything - at least when comparing the 9mm to the .45acp.
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Old December 30, 2015, 02:56 PM   #6
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Haha okay so essentially it's all opinion short of ammo price and hole size ?
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Old December 30, 2015, 05:26 PM   #7
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In theory a 9mm will out last the 45... in otherwise similar/identical guns... rarely is that the case or even possible.

Springs are cheap and the parts most likely to need replacement. Individual parts can be cheap, but the brand and model will come into play. It takes several thousands of dollars in ammo to wear out a quality pistol.

As far as through and through... a FMJ from either will sail clean through a person... a quality hollow point in either will most likely stop in the body, though either have potential to still pass through at greatly reduced energy, or fail to expand properly and act like a FMJ... that is why quality hollow points are recommended, as they work properly 99% of the time, while older designs may not.

9mm tends to get recommended more than any other caliber, because the range ammo is cheaper, the quality hollow point ammo (124gr and higher stuff) is effective in defense, they are generally easier to shoot than other calibers... and they hold more ammo for the same size pistol... more ammo that is terminally just as effective as the other popular calibers... no matter what people say about hole size and energy... in the real world, a 9mm works just as well as a 45.



As far as hammer vs striker... for range and fun I really like hammer fired pistols. My Sig 226 is always a favorite with those I take shooting. I would use it for defense in a heartbeat if the need should arise.

But...

Striker pistols get the most trigger time for me, as they are my preferred defensive pistol type.



If you are looking to get a new pistol to better fit your wife's hands... I suggest something other than a Glock, and definitely not a 45 chambered glock.

Glocks are known for their bulkier grip, even with the new Gen 4 design. They are very good pistols, but other pistols are just as good or better. Glock is not the end all be all top dog they want you to believe they are... they are just well made solid pistols, in a sea of well made solid pistols.

I suggest other pistols more ergonomic and easier to use for small handed people. If it is for home defense and range, get a full size.

Striker is usually the best way to go for small handed people... M&P, FNS, VP9, PPQ, TP9V2 (the last is for the budget minded)... just a small part of a larger list of good options.

The VP9 is a pistol I particularly like, and recommend it highly for small handed people. It's highly customizable grip is a big help. The charging assist tabs are also a bonus for those with lower hand strength. Really allows a person to manipulate the slide well when doing malfunction clearing and other tasks.

Last edited by marine6680; December 30, 2015 at 05:34 PM.
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Old December 30, 2015, 05:37 PM   #8
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Either will force you into backruptcy trying to buy enough ammo to wear it out. There are several documented G17's with round counts near, or over 300,000 rounds.

The G21 has held up well too.

http://www.survival-spot.com/surviva...-torture-test/
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Old December 30, 2015, 07:16 PM   #9
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Thanks for your input MARINE you really took it all down haha. I guess I will stick with a striker fired for her. I have really considered a VP9 however I bought an FNS 9 over it a few months back.

I have heard of the VP9's having issues where the mag release will break since it protrudes so far past the frame if you will. Heard anything on this?

Also heard a few horror stories of the striker indicator on the VP9 being a problem with dust and moisture getting in there and causing it to fail to fire. As well as the frame tabs as well. Any input for the ignorant me ?
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Old December 30, 2015, 07:21 PM   #10
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I doubt the average shooter will ever wear out any firearm made by a reputable manufacturer. Get what you want, what you can shoot well, what you can afford, and call it good.
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Old December 30, 2015, 07:24 PM   #11
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Also. Do you happen to know if the VP9 full cocks itself when the slide resets or if it's like the FN/Glocks and only partially cocks the striker?
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Old December 30, 2015, 08:10 PM   #12
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If you don't throw your VP9 at a steel target repeatedly, then the likelihood of the mag release on it breaking is very low.

Take care of a pistol and properly maintain it, and you won't have to worry about gunk. (You could always put a little dab of black silicone in the back plate hole if you was that worried, the indicator does not protrude)

All pistols have little nooks and crannies, if the cocking tabs on the VP9 are a problem, then all pistols would have issues. The backplates have little crannies for moisture to get into, and people don't complain about those do they? Not to mention... all the insides.

The VP9 is like the majority of striker pistols, in that the striker is cocked fully when the slide cycles.

Some claim they are only partial tension (like the M&P) but I call BS, as they are fully tensioned... or so close as to make no difference. That's my opinion on it anyway... I think they are using semantics and a positive sear engagement as excuse to call a pistol partial tension. A CZ75 in SA mode has a very positive sear engagement, the hammer very noticeably cams rearward when the trigger is pulled, but it's still SA. ..
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Old December 30, 2015, 10:44 PM   #13
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Quote:
So when we compare "for the sake of equality" a Glock 21 (full size 45) and a Glock 17 (9mm). Which gun will last longer as far as mechanics?
I own both and I have several thousand rounds through each and these are both holding up beautifully. I get them armored at least once a year to monitor wear & tear on the internal parts.

Quote:
I have heard that while 9mm has more of a high pressure and speed it still puts less strain on the gun as a whole when compared to a 45acp...
I have seen no discernible additional wear & tear on the 21 compared to the 17 to agree or disagree with your opinion

Quote:
I know that striker guns have less moving parts an all we can ignore that fact, however taking just the striker assemblies and the hammer assemblies into account, which one of these two systems would suffer a failure first when keeping in mind that recommended maintanance is being done. Such as the striker sear wearing out, etc ... Or the hammer spring wearing out, etc......... Or ANY other part of that assembly in those guns.
I think a steel-framed 1911 would probably hold up better long term than a polymer-framed Glock 21 but I have no proof of this.
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Old December 30, 2015, 11:51 PM   #14
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Glocks are good, but I do know a person that wore one out. He literally broke every part that could be broke. How? About 75,000 rounds fired and a steady two hours of dry firing every day for about 4-5 years.

Typical user? No, he's a uspsa GM. But unless you are going to run a gun that hard, I wouldn't give a thought about any top shelf manufacturer's gun lasting. The cost of ammo will far outstrip the cost of the firearm.
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Old December 31, 2015, 12:09 AM   #15
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If you had two guns of roughly equal size, weight and construction, the lighter recoiling gun would likely last longer.

Comparing two different guns in different calibers is going to be much more difficult. The Glock 21 is a big, robust pistol. I suspect it will last every bit as long as a Glock 17.
Quote:
I don't want to start a 45/9 riot post but when comparing the same hollow point 9mm to 45Acp. Which round is more likely to go through and through.
These days, premium self-defense ammunition is engineered to provide consistent penetration performance. The difference in penetration from one caliber to another (within in the general performance class defined by the "service pistol calibers") isn't going to be significant as long as you're using good-quality expanding ammunition.
Quote:
Do you happen to know if the VP9 full cocks itself when the slide resets or if it's like the FN/Glocks and only partially cocks the striker?
I haven't been able to examine a VP9 in detail, but the reports I've seen indicate that the striker is nearly fully cocked after cycling the slide.

As you state, the Glock design only partially cocks the striker with slide action. Measurements indicate that the Glock striker spring compression (in terms of length) is about half done by the slide and half done by the trigger. In terms of striker spring energy, about 25% of the spring energy is generated by the slide and the other 75% by the trigger.

I've only had the opportunity to examine one FN striker pistol in detail and it was substantially similar to the Glock design. I believe it was more like a 60%/40% split between the slide compression and trigger compression. That's a little less work done by the trigger, but it's still a far cry from some of the striker designs which essentially cock the striker nearly completely with slide action.
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Old December 31, 2015, 01:43 AM   #16
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Wow. Okay. This thread took off fast while I was in the movie theatre. As far as the VP9 cocking percentile thank you for both the inputs I'll have to go handle one and see if my dealer will let me toy around with it like my Glocks and FNS.

Also thank you on the "over penetration" myths being lain to rest by you all.

Lemme ask one more question as I have kind of narrowed my searching down a little.....

What would you say the most "resilient, robust, reliable" sub 600$ gun out there is. "Preferably polymer framed"

I am already planning on going to look at the VP9 for sure just to add that to the mix.

Last edited by JeepGunny; December 31, 2015 at 01:48 AM.
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Old December 31, 2015, 02:40 AM   #17
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All the pistols from the big name manufacturers will be very robust and reliable.

The XD series has a pretty hefty build, and you get the hefty build weight with it.

The new Ruger American Pistol looks to be very robustly built as well... but it is a brand new design, so how well it works and holds up is up in the air.

The Sig 320 is also pretty beefy... not heavy, and a good trigger to boot.

At best, I think the beefed up designs may be able to handle a steady diet of +p ammo better (though with modern HP bullets, +p is not needed to get good performance)... at worse, the added build doesn't add any measurable benefit.


Seriously... any striker pistol from the big name manufacturers that has been out a while and proven itself reliable... Glock, S&W, H&K, Sig, FNS, etc... also fits your hands well, and shoots well for you... will last you a lifetime and more.

Trying to determine which is theoretically longer lasting or more robust is just an academic exercise, you will in all likelihood, not manage to wear it out, or need any major parts replaced.

Find the pistol that feels best in your hand, and that you can shoot well... and don't worry about it.


If you just want an opinion on a good pistol... My two favorite striker pistols that I own.

M&P9 (with an Apex trigger kit)
VP9

The striker pistols I currently own are...
M&P (full size, compact and shield)
VP9
PPQ
P320
G17
FNS9

I really like all of them, they are all a bit different, feel different and shoot different. All have been 100% reliable so far, and all are accurate. I did own an XD years ago, and I liked it as well.

I would trust any of them with my life, though I would like to test HP loads more on a few of them, just for extra piece of mind.

So the field is vast with good pistols... now go and enjoy the search for the one for you. (Or for the wife as the case may be)

Last edited by marine6680; December 31, 2015 at 02:56 AM.
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Old December 31, 2015, 05:13 AM   #18
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Quote:
[W]hen comparing the same hollow point 9mm to 45Acp. Which round is more likely to go through and through.
If you mean which will penetrate better, a premium JHP in either caliber will likely penetrate adequately by FBI standards. Look for terminal ballistics data online. For example, Speer publishes a nice chart for their Gold Dot line, and Federal has one for their HST line.

The most important criterion per the FBI is penetration, which should be no less than 12 inches on average in calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin to have a good chance of burrowing into a bad guy's vital organs from a less than optimal shot angle to have the likelihood of producing a physiological stop.

The second most important FBI terminal ballistics criterion is reliable expansion, because a bigger hole is more effective than a smaller hole. When the agency first enunciated these criteria in the late 1980s, JHPs did not always expand reliably. Thus, it was recommended that a service round be selected on unexpanded dimensions, and that any expansion was then a bonus. That thinking gave an edge to the .45 Auto and .40 S&W over the 9 Luger. But, relatively recent advantages in bullet design have made JHP expansion reliable while attaining adequate penetration.

The above considerations helped lead the FBI to adopt the .40 S&W as their standard caliber. But last year, acknowledging improvements in JHP design and performance, and taking into consideration recoil and magazine capacity, the agency switched to championing the 9 Luger. That said, the bullet design improvements that have enhanced the 9 Luger have also benefitted the .45 Auto and other service calibers, so a .45 Auto JHP can still be counted on to make a bigger hole than a 9 Luger JHP.

Quote:
As well as which do you prefer hammer/striker?
I prefer an external hammer for aesthetic reasons primarily. I also view it as a safety device that allows me to see and feel when the gun is cocked or not.

Last edited by Limnophile; January 1, 2016 at 05:49 PM.
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Old December 31, 2015, 09:49 AM   #19
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Reliability and longetivity from caliber and style

While I also think throwing your pistol at steel and then burying it in mud is pretty extreme, I am not of the opinion that the VP9 is as robust as some other designs internally. Specifically I am not a big fan of the trigger bar spring setup. Bruce Gray has some thoughts on this as well (to be fair he's always been more of a SIG guy and is a big fan of the P320 so he may be biased). Do I think the average user will encounter a problem? Not really, nor even a high volume user if he/she maintains the weapon. However if "robustness" was your primary goal I feel there are other designs superior in this regard. I have owned every current production striker fired pistol and have gone back to Glock. They work the best for me personally. That said as has been stated I found with my wife that the blocky grip of the Glock made it difficult for her to shoot well. For women I'd recommend another, slimmer option. Perhaps the M&P.
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Old December 31, 2015, 10:18 AM   #20
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The VP9 fire control is a little odd... when I first looked at the internals, I was a little amazed the thing even worked.


But mine has proven reliable, and maintained properly, I expect that as the norm. I don't clean every range trip either, just every 500rds or a bit more, so it's not like I have to be meticulous about it.
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Old December 31, 2015, 10:34 AM   #21
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Chris, I would recommend that what every you buy, you get a reloading set-up too. You will not "save money". You will shoot a lot more for the money you spend.

Having read the answers to your question posted my other members here, I have little I would add as far as the guns go. They give good advice.

What area and state are you in? If you live in a large city the opportunity to fire your guns regularly are often less than if you live out int he country, and if you live in one of the more communist/socialist areas you will have hoops to jump through compared to living in the wide open western areas of the USA.

It may not seem to be an issue when you first get started in shooting, but I assure you these questions will matter as time wears on.
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Old December 31, 2015, 03:12 PM   #22
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Wyosmith- I live in Oklahoma and live within 10 mins of a few ranges. I try to go shooting every week if not at minimum 2 times a month. I don't shoot a lot maybe 100 rounds a trip max but it keeps me sharp.

I never hear anything bad about Sig's and really want to try one out, however the M&P 9 I shot today was awesome. If the Detail Strip is easy I will probably buy one of those if the wife can shoot it decently as well
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Old December 31, 2015, 04:01 PM   #23
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Detail strip is not hard, and if you choose to add an Apex kit... that is a very easy job.
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Old December 31, 2015, 07:57 PM   #24
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Alrighty. I finally went and test fired both VP9 and the M&P9 both were fantastic. The VP9 seemed to be a little more ergonomicly fitting however the mag release definite needed to be gotten use to. Shot both quite well, however still adjusting back to 9mm. Lol. Both seem to be about the same price as well. MARINE I don't know if you have both of these firearms, sounds like you do but u may just be very intelegent on both platforms, either way. Would you sway towards an M&P9 WITH apex trigger or VP9 besically stock for CCW or Open Carry depending on how I feel. ?
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Old January 1, 2016, 05:43 PM   #25
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I have both.

They are both a little large for concealed carry, but it is possible. The shape of the VP9 may have an advantage.

The mag release on the VP9, I use my trigger finger to activate it, not my thumb... Very easy that way.

Prices for my area, the M&P goes on sale often for less than $500 for a standard model. (PSA usually)

The VP9 runs around $600 for the base version.


The full Apex AEK on an M&P is awesome... Get the Poly replacement trigger to go along with the kit, more solid setup.

To me, the Apex trigger in an M&P is one of if not the best striker trigger.


That being said... the newest M&P triggers are worlds better than before. You may be happy with a stock trigger, or maybe add the Apex Poly replacement trigger, to remove a little mush from the trigger, and be happy with that. My M&P9c, I simply polished up the internals, and replaced the trigger... And that was enough, I didn't bother with replacing the internals with an Apex AEK.


Between the M&P and the VP9, I really like both pistols. The VP9 fits me better overall and the mag release is awesome... The finger grooves are just ever so slightly annoying to me, and the trigger on the M&P is better... Those little niggles are what keep me from declaring it my favorite over the M&P


Either option is a solid choice.
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