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Old May 10, 2021, 02:04 PM   #1
458winshooter
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6.5 Creedmoor.......can we talk?

I for one am slow to jump on this train but I’m curious as to what others have to say about it. Do you love it, or hate it? Is it really all it’s cracked up to be? Do you think it is the one all do all cartridge that we have all so longed for? Will it fall flat on its face like most of the short magnums did a few years ago? Hope to have a good discussion without everybody wanting to open cans of whoopa— on each other or calls to meet out behind the woodshed!
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Old May 10, 2021, 02:22 PM   #2
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I was slow to adopt. While my son got one 3 years ago, I just got my first one last month. In under 20 rounds, I had a 1.7 SD 0.51" (5 shots at 100 yards) load. Ran a range card to 1000 and, um yep, took it to a match never having shot it past 100 yards. Got first round hits out to 700 yards in match conditions. If worked pretty darn well.

I have shot a .260Rem for years, as well as the old .308, .30-06 and .243Win. I like to tinker and I like the oddball calibers, some I tinkered with and got out of...too much hot air. But the 6.5CM is a little bit special. Loads for one rifle tend to also shoot well in the others. Mag length is not an issue and with bullets from 75 to 145 grains (1:8 twists) it really covers a lot of ground neatly. That same rifle I shot in the match (Factory class BTW) just got a new comp and if I get deer or pronghorn tags, it will get the nod.
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Old May 10, 2021, 02:40 PM   #3
Zak Smith
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It's one of the most popular rifle cartridges for both competition and sporting rifles at the moment, so, no, it's not falling flat on its face.

It is a "do it all" cartridge like .308, .30-06, 6.5-06, and tons of others are. It's not a "do it all cartridge" because just like very other one, it has its limitations.
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Old May 10, 2021, 03:27 PM   #4
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It's the best new cartridge to come along in my lifetime. In 2018 almost 1/2 of all bolt rifles sold were in 6.5 CM. The 308 made it into the top 10, but traditional rounds like 270 and 30-06 were lumped together in the "Other" category. Many new rifles being introduced aren't even being offered in 30-06 or 270 anymore. That is just how much things have changed in the last 10 years.

It isn't the best at any one thing, but balanced is how I'd describe it. As a hunting cartridge you get the most performance for the least recoil. Recoil falls between 243 and 308, but is closer to 243. The heavier 140-150 gr hunting bullets give similar penetration to 180 gr 30 caliber bullets. It is the smallest cartridge I'd consider as a good choice for elk size game.

The habits of hunters/shooters are changing. Years ago a typical hunter viewed a 30-06 or 270 as a good all around choice. But most of those guys were at most a 2 box of factory loads a year shooters.

Today even most hunters are spending a lot more time at the range shooting at targets. They go through hundreds if not thousands of rounds in a year and have started stretching the range out well past 500 yards. The modest recoil, accuracy, and ability to shoot past 1000 yards with rifles and ammo bought off the shelf with a 6.5 CM has a lot of appeal. And they're finding the game they shoot ends up just as dead.

Quote:
Will it fall flat on its face like most of the short magnums did
The story of the short mags is complicated. The original 300 WSM's were developed by a gun writer named Rick Jamison. He named it the 300 Jamison. He approached Winchester to sell them the rights to produce the cartridge. Winchester declined to buy the rights, but brought out the cartridge anyway using the WSM name. Jamison sued and won.

After the suit Jamison got paid a royalty for every WSM rifle and box of ammo sold. Winchester was required to keep making the rifles and ammo, but all other manufacturers dropped the WSM's to avoid paying the royalty. Remington and Ruger tried to develop their own version, but they failed. After the lawsuit Winchester never really pushed rifles in those cartridges.

The 300 WSM still has a healthy following. And if Winchester had done the right thing from the start the WSM's would have had much more success. The concept is solid. They didn't fail due to lack of performance.
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Old May 10, 2021, 04:49 PM   #5
Don Fischer
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I doubt it will fall anytime soon but I suspect most people that have it highly over rate it. As an example, the bullet's it shoots can also be shot in the 260, 6.5x55 and even in the 6.5x06! I think I just read where it has a 1-8 twist. That will help it out only so far as shooting heavier bullet's but my 6.5x06 does well with a 1-9 twist with 140gr bullet's. Something about bullet's, most people dolt on lighter bullet's rather than heavier, kinda take away that advantage. I have a 6.5x55 also and it does very well with 140gr bullet's. Never bothered finding out the twist rate, no reason as heavier than 140gr bullet's are a bit hard to come by!

As a competitive cartridge I have no idea how it does as I don't compete. But like most of the country's shooter's, I'm simply a hunter and my 6.5's, the 06 and 6.5x55 have never let me down. I don't know what happens in the 6.5 CM with heavier bullet's. Can you load out to the lands and still get the rounds in the magazine? I had a 6mm Rem years ago and I could not load 100 gr bullet's out to the lands due to the magazine length!

At 100yds, 1/2" is 1/2" no matter what cartridge shoot's the bullet! Same goes for 1/2 MOA at 600yds also!

And if you do go over 140gr bullet's, can it still compete with the 6.5x06, 6.5x55, 6.5 rem mag 264 win mag? I believe what it does regardless of the praise is simply fill another notch that never needed filling in the first place! On the up side I think it has given 6.5 cal a boost for what ever reason and that part, I like!
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Old May 10, 2021, 05:00 PM   #6
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It's good because it's a very successful commercialization of .260 Rem, which is a natural adaptation of the .308 case to 6.5mm-- which itself was a good idea because of the historic success of 6.5x55, 6.5-06, etc. It does not have the case capacity of 6.5x55 or 6.5-06 or 6.5-284, or any of the magnums, because it is a regular 308 sized cartridge designed to fit into normal 308 rifles.

I have competed extensively with .260, and tested it vs. 6.5CM, and these work great. 260 vs. 6.5CM comes down to availability of commercial ammo and the best components. 6.5CM and .260 are great long-range competition cartridges because of the 140-grain class high BC match bullets available, the ability to launch them at a reasonably fast velocity (2750-2900 fps depending on load and barrel length), and a pretty decent barrel life (over 4000 typically). These days match guys who don't care about barrel life (or power factor) are shooting a lot of 6mm's (6XC, 6 Creedmoor, 6 Dasher, and others). For longer range matches, or where a single round's hit is worth more, 6.5 PRC is a popular choice.

6.5 Creedmoor, just like 260, 6.5x55, etc, and all those, is a good all around hunting cartridge because with good bullets you can shoot the largest N.A. game, and for normal game you can shoot just about any bullet. It has longer barrel life than .243, but supports a heavier bullet, which is useful. It's good for deer sized game for the same reason 257 Roberts is.

In some sense, the best argument FOR 6.5 Creedmoor is that it was marketed successfully by Hornady, who basically made a "good cartridge idea" (that, yes, had been reincarnated in at least a dozen similar cartridges over the last 120 years), ubiquitous in modern rifles and in modern applications.
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Old May 10, 2021, 06:10 PM   #7
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Tack driver with low recoil. It works very well for me and deer hunting.
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Old May 10, 2021, 10:36 PM   #8
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I have been shooting the 6.5 Creedmoor since 2009-2010. I have shot varmints to include coyotes, ground hogs, 1 pig, several deer and many thousands of targets downrange. I did not start loading for it until a few years ago, and never really got into loading really precise ammo until about the same time.

On deer and the one pig I shot with a Creedmoor I have never had any trouble with penetration. Everything I have shot with it has died within 30 yards of where I shot them.

As mentioned above, it really does not do anything that another cartridge could not accomplish. What it does very well is offer a balance of desirable features. Low recoil, easy accuracy (most of the time), wide selection of bullets available and seemingly now out selling the 308 WIN and other staple cartridges. Support within the industry is out pacing other cartridges as well.

I would not feel under equipped taking the 6.5 Creedmoor with a 140-150 grain bullet after everything in North America with the exception of the great bears of the north.

I also own a 308 and although both cartridges will accomplish the same feats, here is a small comparison and the reason I shoot the 6.5 more often than my 308 rifles.

With the 6.5 Creedmoor I am shooting a 145 grain bullet with a G7 BC of .352 at 2760 fps. Energy at the muzzle is 2452 Ft lbs. The sectional density is .297.

With the 308 I am shooting a 175 grain bullet with a G7 BC of .254 at a velocity of 2660 and sectional density of .264. Energy at the muzzle for the 308 is 2749.

So the 308 has 300 ft lbs more energy at the muzzle than my 6.5 Creedmoor, but by 300 yards the Creedmoor has more velocity and energy than the 308 load. At 300 yards the Creedmoor has 1833 ft lbs and the 308 has 1813 ft lbs. So by 300 yards the 6.5 Creedmoor, in this case has more energy, with a lighter bullet.

Assuming a 9 pound rifle the Creedmoor has a recoil velocity of 9.67 fps and a recoil energy of 13.09 ft lbs. The 308 load would have a recoil velocity of 10.92 fps and a recoil energy of 16.68 ft lbs. That is a 27% increase in recoil energy from the 6.5 Creedmoor to the 308.

The 308 bullet will drop 10 inches more than the 6.5mm bullet at 500 yards. At 500 yards with a 10mph crosswind at 90 degrees, the 308 will drift 7 inches more than the 6.5 Creedmoor.

All of these things can be accounted for. The Creedmoor does nothing that similar short action cartridges don't also accomplish. However, in my opinion, the 6.5 Creedmoor does it better
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Old May 11, 2021, 06:15 AM   #9
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Well designed, easy to load for ( if you are a reloader ) mild shooting cartridge. Lighter pills for varmints/yotes and deer and 140+ for the bigger stuff. Advantages over the 308 for longer distances ( though I argue that using a 308 will help you with your holds/winds much like shooting a 22 at 200+ yards does) and IMO if you can handle a 308 recoil the 6.5 will be just that more enjoyable. It adds a versatile tool in the shed for you and its why old schoolers talk down about it...30-06, 308, 260 and 270s are what they know and comfortable with. I own one and it has been usable in all my scenarios from moose to target practice. Love it for what it can do, just realize its not a magic bullet....you still gotta work.
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Old May 11, 2021, 08:22 AM   #10
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I once took out a T 62 tank with my creedmoor.

It's without question a great design for the balance of exceptional ballistics and relatively soft felt recoil. I don't hunt with it though.
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Old May 11, 2021, 10:46 AM   #11
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For me, on a limited budget and since I am not a reloader, the 6.5 Creedmore is too expensive when compared to the .308.

Today, 5/11/2021, 6.5 C is about $2.50 per round on Ammoseek whereas .308 is about $0.75. That is more than triple the price.

The 6.5 Creedmore is no doubt an incredibly performing "do it all" cartridge, and if it wasn't for its cost I would prefer it to the .308.
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Old May 11, 2021, 12:17 PM   #12
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I've always found it funny that the 6.5 Creedmoor has such a Love / Hate relationship with people. It's just another cartridge!
I do laugh at the newer generation of shooter's that are "Fanboy's" of the 6.5 CM. Hornady's marketing dept. hit it out of the park, and a lot of new shooter's took the bait and ran with it.

I built my first 6.5 CM in 2009 after watching it's progress for 2 years. It amazed me with how easy it was to find great shooting loads for, no matter the bullet, bullet weight, or type of powder used. My 260 Remington has always been pretty finicky when it comes to finding a great load.
I've never shot a single round of factory ammo in 6.5 CM. The first few years we only had Hornady brass, and it is the worst brass to use, IMO. It can't be pushed or the primer pockets fail. Nosler brass was much better, but being large primer brass, it would fail pretty fast also when you pushed for higher velocities.
Once Lapua, Starline, and other companies started making small primered brass for the 6.5 CM, then I was able to start getting some great velocities (2900 fps) out of it with 140 gr & 143 gr bullets, and still have brass that would last.

I've built 4 more 6.5 CM rifles since my first one for myself and 3 good friends. Each one of those rifles will shoot almost the same load just as well as the other. I've never seen that happen with too many other cartridges.
I'm a big fan of 6.5mm cartridges, I shoot the 260 Remington, 6.5 CM, 6.5-06, and a 6.5 x 6.8 wildcat AR15, but I'm also a big fan of many other's from 22lr to 45-110.
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Old May 11, 2021, 12:34 PM   #13
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Pistoler0, don't base gun buying decisions solely on micro-economics. 6.5CM is in fact cheaper than .308. Current demand is messing with the prices of all ammo and components.
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Old May 11, 2021, 02:20 PM   #14
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I think it's becoming a venerable cartridge. The 6.5 caliber has been in Europe as what the .30 caliber is to the U.S. The 6.5x55Swede has been around for a LONG time. Economics, politics, availability, and familiarity of the .30-06 (and other cartridges) seem to constantly overshadow the capabilities of the 6.5mm for decades.

In the last few decades, Americans started to come around to the 6.5mm, generally speaking.

I think this is why the Creedmoor is so popular. The timing of its development and advertising played key roles in it catching on. Don't get me wrong. The performance of the cartridge speaks for itself. However, if the general public isn't sold on it, there's nothing you can do to make it a mainstay on the shelves of gun stores.

I have acquaintances in my area that believes there are better long range cartridges for hunting bigger game. Can the Creedmoor handle the same game they hunt? I'm sure it can. Hunters have their preferences, though, in what they want.

I believe the Creedmoor is here to stay, regardless of my personal choice. I have a 1500 KRG that was originally chambered in the Creedmoor. What did my gunsmith do? He punched it out to a 6.5-284Norma. If you want to see a dust-up happen, ask which is better between those two. You might as well ask if Ford or Chevy is better.
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Old May 11, 2021, 04:14 PM   #15
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While I agree that the 6.5 Creedmore is a capable cartridge on medium game, I wouldn't go selling a 308 or 30-06 or 7mm and replace it wiht a Creedmore. Right now it is everybody's sweetheart, but there will be others that will nudge you to buy them in the coming years. It was well marketed and well launched when Hornady announced it and rolled out the ammo with the rifles, something Remington flubbed when they launched the 260. IMO, the 6.5 Creedmore is enjoying the popularity the 260 should have enjoyed a couple of decades ago: light recoil, accurate, and capable on the most popular game animals. I mean, who really needs a 30-06 or 300 Win Mag for deer or hogs? Coupled with high BC bullets, it's a great re-invention of the 250-3000, 6.5X55, etc, light recoil with good killing power.
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Old May 12, 2021, 07:15 AM   #16
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6.5 Swede ... none better in this class!
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Old May 12, 2021, 09:56 AM   #17
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What about the argument regarding barrel wear? I've heard that a 6.5 Creedmore will wear out a barrel a little quicker that a .308....is this true?

Looking at a Savage 110 Long Range Hunter and being unable to come to a decision of caliber (6.5 vs. .308) has delayed my purchase by months!
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Old May 12, 2021, 10:30 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Famas View Post
What about the argument regarding barrel wear? I've heard that a 6.5 Creedmore will wear out a barrel a little quicker that a .308....is this true?

Looking at a Savage 110 Long Range Hunter and being unable to come to a decision of caliber (6.5 vs. .308) has delayed my purchase by months!
A 6.5 will wear a barrel out faster than a .308. There are different "allowances" based on several factors.

If we are talking just spin on a barrel and shoot one moderate long range load, the 6.5CM might be 3K rounds and the .308 might be 6K rounds. For long range group shooters, the barrel would be "shot out", which has a lot of different interpretations.

I have a .260 Rem barrel with close to 9K rounds on it. It has been cut back and rechambered a few times, and re-crowned a few times as well. It currently prints 5 shot groups of about 0.65" at 100 yards. When it had 500 rounds down the tube, it printed the same round into 0.3" with a MV that was over 100 fps faster. Granted, she has had 2" removed from the barrel length. Doing the same thing with a .308 barrel, many years more ago, I got one set-back on the tube before groups opened up past what I felt was acceptable. The actual bore had about the same life. The chamber, freebore and start of the lands took a good amount more abuse with 6.5 vs .308. As V goes up and diameter goes down, throat erosion increases. Just one of those things that can't be beat with current technology.

I consider barrels to be consumables on my match rifles and I will go through about 3K then put on a new barrel or, in some cases, have it cut back and rethreaded. My hunting rifles, most don't even have 1K on them. My .243Win I got when I was 13, then gave my youngest when he was 13, has about 100 head of Deer and Pronghorn, lots of Coyotes and some Prairie Dogs and is just over 1K rounds. My .30-06 that I got when I was 14 and gave to my oldest when he was 13, has about 100 head of big game , some practice and it is just under 1K rounds. Most of the rest are under 500 rounds, and I put 100 through them before they go afield. But they are mostly around 1MOA guns at their best.
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Old May 12, 2021, 07:13 PM   #19
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I thin its a great round. All cartridges have their limitations you just need to understand them and see what suits your needs. I think it will be around for a very long time.
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Old May 13, 2021, 08:55 AM   #20
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I hunt with a 260, which we know to be ballistically the same as the 6.5CM, and it works just fine for deer and hogs. Prior to the 260, I hunted for years (decades) with a 270. I think of the 260 and the 6.5CM as a 270 Lite.

A 243 will push a 100 gr bullet about 3000 FPS.
A 260 or 6.5 CM will push a 120 gr bullet to 2900 FPS.
A 270 will push a 140 gr bullet to 3000 FPS.

There have been a couple of times, when shooting large hogs, that I wished I had brought the 270. But for whitetail deer hunting, of which I’ve shot a few hundred, I can’t really tell a difference in effectiveness between the 260 and 270 out to 300 yards.

My brother bought a Bergera in 6.5 CM and brought it to me to scope and sight in, and to load him some rounds. Used 120 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips, CCI primers, Lapua cases, and H4350 powder. Maybe it was just the good barrel on the Bergera, or maybe it was the caliber, but finding the perfect load was the easiest I’ve ever done. That rifle would really shoot.
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Old May 13, 2021, 02:02 PM   #21
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Isn't it just a .250 Savage necked up to 6.5mm?

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Old May 13, 2021, 02:48 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geezerbiker View Post
Isn't it just a .250 Savage necked up to 6.5mm?

Tony
No, The parent case is the 30 TC.
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Old May 13, 2021, 02:58 PM   #23
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No, I believe it is a based upon a Thompson Center .30 cal necked down to .264.

I'm told that Hornady chose the T/C over the .308 because they wanted to keep the the brass trim length around 1.910 so the long .264 high BC bullets would still fit into an AR magazine with an overall length of around 2.805 to 2.810.
They didn't just design the 6.5 CM for the bolt action crowd.

I load my bolt action 6.5 CMs out to 2.880 to 2.900 O.A.L. now that my three bolt action 6.5 CM rifles have a considerable number of rounds down their tubes.

My oldest 6.5 CM has shot over 4,200 rounds, and the second oldest has shot over 4,075 rounds.
They both still shoot just as accurately as they did when new. Actually they now shoot slightly better, but I load for accuracy and avoid loads that are too close to Pmax to keep barrel wear to a minimum.

So much for the barrels wearing out quickly.
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Old May 13, 2021, 07:14 PM   #24
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To be really picky about it, the 6.5CM case is essentially a 250 Savage Ackley Improved case. That cartridge predates the 30 TC by decades. You can say the 30 TC was the parent case, and not be wrong, but the 30 TC case came from somewhere, not being a one-off like the 240 Weatherby case.
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Old May 14, 2021, 05:01 PM   #25
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The main thing 30 TC brings to the 6.5 Creedmore is the small primer pocket. The 30 TC was designed to achieve or exceed 308 ballistics in a slightly smaller case while improving accuracy (the small primer is considered to enhance accuracy).

6.5 Creedmore is definitely not intended to be an improved 250 Savage case (large vs small primer), although they are almost the same length. Kinda like some of the internet wizards that say the 22 CHeetAH is just a necked down 308 case (no, that is the 22 Middlestead, the 22 CHeetAH was designed using small primer BR brass).

Splitting hairs? Maybe.
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