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Old March 26, 2021, 02:15 AM   #101
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I feel they would probably be more popular if there weren’t intermediate calibers out there. I just could not see having a carbine using a pistol caliber when the same size carbine using say 5.56 or 7.62x39. Ammo prices notwithstanding, if I’m going to have that size of a gun, might as well have it in a more powerful caliber.
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Old March 26, 2021, 07:50 AM   #102
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I feel they would probably be more popular if there weren’t intermediate calibers out there. I just could not see having a carbine using a pistol caliber when the same size carbine using say 5.56 or 7.62x39. Ammo prices notwithstanding, if I’m going to have that size of a gun, might as well have it in a more powerful caliber.
Prior to a few years ago, many flat midwestern states with dense populations limited deer hunting to muzzle loaders or shotgun using a slug. Many of those states have opened hunting to rifles using a straight wall cartridge, a nice change. Ruger began producing the Model 44 Carbine in 1961 pictured in the foreground.



This change in hunting laws opened things up to where a PCC like this is ideal. Additionally I hunted West Virginia extensively with this little carbine and it was ideal.

Rifle in foreground is a Ruger 44 Carbine and background is a common Ruger 10/22. Obvious where the 10/22 design came from.

Anyway a pistol caliber carbine has it's place.

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Old March 26, 2021, 09:30 AM   #103
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might as well have it in a more powerful caliber.
Yes & no. To me...more power isn't always better. Much like I USED to have a 458 WinMag...now my largest caliber rifle is 300WinMag (that rarely gets shot) & 270 Win & below does 99.9% of what I need done.

For this & all the reasons mentioned above in other's post, this is why I HAD a 7.5" AR pistol...sold it in favor of sticking with my 9mm & 40 PCC's for SD duty IN my home.
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Old March 26, 2021, 09:41 AM   #104
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OP needs to get handed a CZ Scorpion with a folding tailhook brace and a binary trigger. It'll make any potent mans pants just a bit tighter.
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Old March 26, 2021, 11:17 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by amprecon View Post
I feel they would probably be more popular if there weren’t intermediate calibers out there. I just could not see having a carbine using a pistol caliber when the same size carbine using say 5.56 or 7.62x39. Ammo prices notwithstanding, if I’m going to have that size of a gun, might as well have it in a more powerful caliber.

Exactly


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Old March 26, 2021, 11:21 AM   #106
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OP needs to get handed a CZ Scorpion with a folding tailhook brace and a binary trigger. It'll make any potent mans pants just a bit tighter.

Oh I’ve shot them. They’re certainly fun. I own an AR pistol with a 7.5 inch barrel. But it’s in 300BO and i reload. I see no need (other than competition) for going down to 9mm or something when a gun the same size, weight and utility can be chambered in a rifle caliber. Plus reloading takes the cost of ammo out of the equation for me.


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Old March 26, 2021, 01:19 PM   #107
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"CZ Custom" tailhook brace for a CZ Scorpion pistol.

It locks very solid in the folded or extended positions, is very functional in multiple applications. Pretty light weight & kinda looks cool.

https://czcustom.com/cz-scorpion-evo...hook-adpt.html

This is the Micro version but you get the idea. (I prefer the 7" version.)

https://czcustom.com/czc-evo-3-s2-micro-with-brace.html

https://czcustom.com/czc-evo-3-s2-mi...ce-no-mag.html



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Old March 27, 2021, 08:35 AM   #108
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Oh I’ve shot them. They’re certainly fun. I own an AR pistol with a 7.5 inch barrel. But it’s in 300BO and i reload. I see no need (other than competition) for going down to 9mm or something when a gun the same size, weight and utility can be chambered in a rifle caliber. Plus reloading takes the cost of ammo out of the equation for me.
I have a 10mm carbine. I had a 300 AAC AR pistol. The 10mm carbine will do anything the 300 will do with less noise. You really should get past the "rifle caliber" dogma.
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Old March 27, 2021, 09:26 AM   #109
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I have a 10mm carbine. I had a 300 AAC AR pistol. The 10mm carbine will do anything the 300 will do with less noise. You really should get past the "rifle caliber" dogma.

A subsonic 220 gr 300BO is still stable, accurate, and going 900 fps at 350 yards. 10mm? Not so much. A supersonic 300BO can punch through level IIIA body armor. 10mm? Nope.
You need to learn more about exterior and terminal ballistics before making comments like that.


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Old March 27, 2021, 10:38 AM   #110
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A subsonic 220 gr 300BO is still stable, accurate, and going 900 fps at 350 yards. 10mm? Not so much. A supersonic 300BO can punch through level IIIA body armor. 10mm? Nope.
You need to learn more about exterior and terminal ballistics before making comments like that.
Not with your 7.5" barrel. So, you are telling me that it loses no velocity @350 yards? Oh and bullet drop? about 120" outta that 7.5" BBL of yours. Supers will penetrate soft body armor but if you are gonna run supers and subs you need to re zero for each load. Mine had an elevation difference of about 10" @ 25 yards between supers and subs. A 300 AAC is no more a long range cartridge than a PCC, any PCC.

I admit I made an incorrect statement. Some of us have no need to punch body armor.
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Old March 27, 2021, 01:40 PM   #111
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Not with your 7.5" barrel. So, you are telling me that it loses no velocity @350 yards? Oh and bullet drop? about 120" outta that 7.5" BBL of yours. Supers will penetrate soft body armor but if you are gonna run supers and subs you need to re zero for each load. Mine had an elevation difference of about 10" @ 25 yards between supers and subs. A 300 AAC is no more a long range cartridge than a PCC, any PCC.

I admit I made an incorrect statement. Some of us have no need to punch body armor.

If you can range it correctly, drop doesn’t matter. Ballistic coefficient matters so it doesn’t get pushed around by the wind. Which is why pistol calibers can’t perform at distance. Here’s a screen shot from JBM Ballistics i just ran for subsonic 300BO. Notice the remarkable way it retains speed and energy.




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Old March 27, 2021, 01:51 PM   #112
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Am I the only one who is not enamored but the new PCC rage?

And here’s a ballistic chart for a 180 gr 10mm going at carbine velocities. Look at the loss of energy at distance. The 300BO is going the same velocity at 350 yards that the 10mm is going at 100, even though the 10mm started with a faster velocity. Also the 10mm is lighter by 40 grains. I’m sorry but 10mm and 300BO subsonic are not comparable. And we haven’t even looked at the full power super sonic rounds in 300BO.
There’s a reason that 300BO is used the the US military in CQB roles, and there’s a reason they went away from sub machine guns and other pistol caliber rifles.
Soft body armor penetration is a good analogue for thick skinned animals in hunting. And that’s why that issue matters.




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Old March 27, 2021, 06:26 PM   #113
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LOL, that is barely handgun velocity for real 10mm loads. From a carbine try about 1800 fps.

I was wrong, I said so. Mostly because I see the 300 as a 100 yard gun.

To say that 125" of drop @ 350 yards is acceptable is ludicrous. I do not know of any optic you would put on a 7.5" AR pistol that would account for 125" or 10.4 FEET of drop. The 300 is not a sniper round it is a close range CQB round.

Actual muzzle velocities for subs from a 7.5" BBL are closer to 950 fps not 1200 fps like they would be from a 16" BBL. So you are actually going to have a bit more than 125" of drop @ 350 yards, more like 150" or so.

Enjoy.
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Old March 28, 2021, 10:34 AM   #114
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Am I the only one who is not enamored but the new PCC rage?

Well i hand load so my subs are dialed in at 1100 fps from my 7.5 inch barrel.
You make a good point about optics and drop, which is why primary arms makes a reticle specifically designed for this issue.
If you’ve chronoed 1800 fps from your carbine using 10 mm that would be interesting. I was using published data from Hornady. I didn’t mean to cherry pick a low velocity load. It still doesn’t match supersonic 300BO though.
In any case, seems like we’ll need to agree to disagree on the comparability of these two calibers.


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Old March 28, 2021, 07:33 PM   #115
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In any case, seems like we’ll need to agree to disagree on the comparability of these two calibers.
I told you two separate times I was wrong about that.

You were posting inaccurate information.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=114

https://www.underwoodammo.com/10mm-a...low-point.html
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Old March 29, 2021, 12:44 AM   #116
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Nanuk, Sorry i missed that.
In any case, i have nothing against PCCs (in 10mm or any other pistol caliber) and i think everyone should be able to buy whatever interests them. I’m just surprised that PCCs are as popular as they are, since they don’t really draw me in. This thread has enlightened me that they have real value in the competition and home defense worlds on top of being a fun and affordable way to run a rifle at the range.
They still aren’t my thing, but i better understand why everyone else loves them so much. Sounds like you love your 10mm carbine, which is great. Not my cup of tea, but more power to you.


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Old March 29, 2021, 06:40 AM   #117
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They still aren’t my thing, but i better understand why everyone else loves them so much. Sounds like you love your 10mm carbine, which is great. Not my cup of tea, but more power to you.
I like it. It will do anything I need right up to where I need a rifle.
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Old April 5, 2021, 02:28 AM   #118
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Too many criminal predators equipped with body armor for me to feel comfortable with a pistol caliber defense firearm but for those situations that require concealability.
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Old April 5, 2021, 07:30 AM   #119
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I personally am fascinated by PCC's--I have driven 9mm bullets (65 gr inceptor) over 3000 fps in one (accurately) and as I see it the only limitations to doing better are lack of cases that can withstand greater pressures and better bullets. In a 9 x 25 Dillon the same bullet can go over 2500 fps out of my Glock 20 SF.
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Old April 5, 2021, 03:32 PM   #120
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I apologize if this is repeat, but here are my thoughts on the benefits:

1. Reduced noise and blast. Shooting a pistol cartridge out of a 16" barrel is really tame. Not "suppressor" level quiet, but also not painfully loud. This could be a huge advantage in a close-quarters, indoor type engagement.

2. Reduced cost to shoot.

Those are significant perks (especially the first one) in a defensive rifle.
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Old April 5, 2021, 04:03 PM   #121
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With magnum revolver cartridges like the .357 Magnum, with its great increase in carbine velocity, the pairing makes sense to me.



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Old April 5, 2021, 11:02 PM   #122
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With magnum revolver cartridges like the .357 Magnum, with its great increase in carbine velocity, the pairing makes sense to me.
Agreed...very nice.
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Old April 6, 2021, 10:42 AM   #123
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One word COMPETITION. USPSA and IDPA
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That’s true
When USPSA opened up the provisional division of PCC membership grew by over 5,000. I would say they made the right choice as well as the poor mans open division of Carry Optics
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Old April 9, 2021, 10:16 AM   #124
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A number of years ago PCC competitions were common, at least in my area. Then for some reason it all dried up and went away.

I'm really pleased to see it making a comeback. PCC competitions are hugely fun and not expensive. Those comps were about the only time we had an opportunity to engage 40 targets in 60 seconds.

So yeah, fun. Do you all remember what fun is and do you need any other reason other than fun?
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Old May 13, 2021, 12:03 PM   #125
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Well, seems my opinions are in good company. Check out this interview at the 10 minute mark. Pretty much echos my perspective.


https://youtu.be/pLBCzry8ZjA


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