Thompson SMG

[bonasa20]

A close friend of mine served in Viet Nam. His close friend, also a Viet Nam vet, recently died and left a number of guns to his sister. Among them is a military M1 Thompson dewat. I saw the gun 30+ years ago and to the best of my recollection, it is in mint condition. What are her alternatives to deal legally with this weapon? To the best of our knowledge there is no amnesty paperwork. Gun was probably purchased from an ad on the back cover of some 50's or 60's magazine. J Curtis Earl? Looking for advise here.

[Model12Win]

Possession of such an item is a felony.

Report it to the ATF immediately.

[Bill DeShivs]

She needs to put the gun in the possession of her attorney, and have the attorney contact ATF to find out if the gun is papered. If it is, they will advise her the proper transfer procedure.
If the gun is contraband, the attorney can relinquish it.

[James K]

Unless that gun is on the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR) it is contraband and illegal to possess. People may have various kinds of advice, some of which will only create trouble for her. Believe me, BATFE has heard it all before and is not going to prosecute anyone who is acting is good faith. The sister might feel better with an attorney, but there is no need to pay one; she should call her local BATFE office (should be in the phone book or from directory service) and explain the situation. Unfortunately, if the gun is not registered, it is contraband, like a stash of illegal drugs or counterfeit money, and she won't be able to keep it.

If it turns out that the gun is registered, BATFE will determine that and will advise her how to transfer it to her name so she can legally keep it or sell it.

But tell her not to play games with the feds, and not to believe most of the nonsense she might hear.

Jim

[44 AMP]

Among them is a military M1 Thompson dewat.

DEWAT

Did you guys miss this???

DEWAT (DeActivatedWarThrophy)

IF the gun is ACTUALLY a DEWAT in compliance with Fed regs, then the Fed doesn't give a rat's posterior about it. It's NOT a machine gun, it's not ANY KIND OF GUN.

Its a lump of metal (and wood) that cannot do anything. Period.

Now, the issue becomes, does the Tommygun in question meet the Fed standard to be a DEWAT. Paperwork on this from when the gun was DEWATted would be a big help, and would solve your problem, but if none exists, all is not lost.

Bill has the right answer. Contact an Attorney, and have them deal with the FED on this matter. IF the gun turns out to be a valid DEWAT, the money spent will seem excessive, but if the gun does not meet DEWAT requirements, then it is an unregistered machine gun, and the cost of an attorney to avoid a huge fine, felony conviction and 10 years in jail, is more than worth it.

Basically Fed DEWAT standards mean that critical areas of the gun must be cut open or welded closed, so it cannot be returned to function.

If you can return the gun to function just by replacing parts (anything or everything other than the receiver) its not a legal DEWAT.

Weld barrel shut? Not good enough, because you can replace the barrel and restore function.

Throw away internal parts? Not good enough. Put in more parts and rock & roll (illegally!)

Torch cut / grind the receiver (in the right place) or weld it shut, =DEWAT (as long as the Fed agrees and they generally do, once they have inspected it)

Basically if the level of effort and tools required to restore the gun to function come close or match the level of effort needed to make the receiver from scratch, it will accepted as a valid DEWAT.

However, each case is individually judged. Get a lawyer, have the lawyer contact the ATF for an evaluation of the gun. If the Fed says its DEWAT, you get it back, and are home free, minus the lawyer fee.

If the Fed says no, it's contraband, the lawyer will surrender it, and (likely) you will not be charged, (though you COULD be) because you acted in good faith. On the plus side, if you ARE charged, you already have a lawyer...

Even the "evil" ATF seldom goes after people who are obviously trying to comply with the law. Those who voluntarily come forward seldom get punished, even though they are technically breaking the law.

Those the ATF catches, trying to evade the law, they go after with a full court press.

Like they do with semis that MALFUNCTION and fire full auto. Yes, technically it becomes a machine gun, and you are in violation of the law, BUT, its a malfunction, and the ATF allows for this.

UNLESS you don't get it fixed! (time matters here...) If you keep it, knowing it goes full auto, and don't get it fixed, THEN you are deliberately breaking the law, and when caught, you WILL be prosecuted to the full extent.

Get a lawyer, follow their advice. If you don't like their advice, get a different lawyer and see if they give you other options.

Since the gun is clearly a real Tommygun, AND you do not have papers from the FED proving it is deactivated, the issue is now in question. DO NOT dispose of the gun, or destroy it, that might be a crime (destruction of evidence). Surrender it to your lawyer to hold until the FED determines if it is contraband, or not. THERE IS NO OTHER LEGAL OPTION!!!!

You might consider removing all the parts you can remove, before surrendering it to your lawyer, but I would talk to the lawyer first, and see if there is some reason (that I don't know) not to do this.

I have no idea the value of the DEWAT, but a real Tommygun with FED papers proving it DEWAT, and no longer a gun, isn't a common item, and could be sold to anyone, even in the most restrictive states, because it's a "decorator item" and NOT a gun. Without the FED papers, it could be a felony.

Did I mention, get a lawyer (one who knows what they are doing in these matters)?

I've laid out the options as I see them, I'm not a lawyer, and my advice is worth what you paid for it. If I've made any errors, I will gladly stand correction.

Hope for the best, plan for the worst, and you are seldom disappointed. IF the gun was deactivated in a way that meets the Fed approval, you will get it back. If not, you won't. You MAY get the option to have the DEWAT redone to meet the Fed requirements, but I wouldn't count on that. If the gun fails to meet Fed standards, you might inquire, but don't hold your breath.

Good Luck!

And, please, let us know how things work out.

[James K]

Sorry, not entirely accurate. In the 1950's and 1960's, when those guns were being sold like paperweights, they were mostly "deactivated" by dropping a short carriage bolt into the chamber and tack welding the head to the barrel. I "rewatted" several simply by using a rod to tap out the barrel plug.

The '68 law treats such "DEWATs" the same as live guns and requires they be registered just like an open gun. In fact, 95% of the MG's registered today were originally sold as DEWATs and opened up when registered, since there was no real difference under the '68 law. Of course, many DEWATs were registered as "unserviceable." Today, those guns can be legally restored to full functionality, since they are properly registered.

But you can't make a DEWAT today, unless you start with a registered gun. If you have an open gun, or a DEWAT welded to pre-68 standards, and it is not registered, you have contraband, period.

As to the lawyer, I still strongly recommend the owner contact BATFE herself; if she gets an attorney involved, things get complicated and that could act to her detriment.

Jim

[rkbanet]

DEWAT's guns still come under the NFA and must be registered. Do not mix up DEWAT'd gun with a DEMILLED one. Demilled guns do not need to be registered. To demill a weapon one usually makes 2 or 3 TORCH cuts completely through the receiver removing at least 0.5 inches of metal. The long story...

DEWATs

A DEWAT is an unserviceable gun that has an intact receiver, thus, as the GCA of 1968 is construed, it is a machine gun. In 1955 the ATT decided that a gun that was a registered war souvenir (or for a time, a contraband unregistered gun) could be removed from the coverage of the NFA if it was rendered unserviceable by steel welding the breech closed, and steel welding the barrel to the frame. All this was to be done under the supervision of an ATT inspector. See Revenue Ruling 55-590. The gun became a wall hanger, ornament, like parts sets now. This was not the same as an unserviceable gun, which was still subject to the NFA, but exempt from the transfer tax. These steel welded guns were DEWAT's. DEWAT stands for DEactivated WAr Trophy; it was regularly done for servicemen who wished to bring home NFA weapons as war souvenirs. It was also done to WWI and WWII era guns imported as surplus by companies like ARMEX International, and Interarmco, and then sold through the mail in ads in gun magazines. The glory days before 1968. A DEWAT must now be registered to be legal, there is no longer a legal difference between a DEWAT and an unserviceable weapon. A few states only allow individuals to own DEWAT machine guns, Iowa and Kansas come to mind.

A DEWAT machine gun transfers tax free, as a "curio or ornament", on a Form 5. To be a DEWAT, a gun should have a steel weld in the chamber, and have the plugged barrel steel welded to the frame or receiver. Having said that, a gun may be registered as unserviceable and not be de-activated in this manner. It may have cement or lead in the barrel, or a piece of rod welded, soldered or brazed in the barrel. Despite the repeated warnings from ATT, apparently DEWATs were made or imported that did not have steel welds. And a weapon registered as "unserviceable" before 1968 was not held to these standards. One (ostensible) reason machine gun receivers were redefined as machine guns in 1968, thus bringing DEWATs under the NFA regulation, was that folks were regularly and easily making their DEWATs live guns w/o complying with the law. Some barrel plugs were so poor they would fall out with little coaxing.

To re-activate the gun, ATF requires you file a fully completed Form 1 (i.e. you get the gun on a Form 5, including the law enforcement certification, photo and fingerprints. You have to do all that again for the Form 1), and pay the $200 tax the gun was exempt from before. Then when that is returned approved you can install a replacement barrel, or get the weld out of the barrel, if possible. In the alternative, a Class 2 manufacturer may re-activate the gun, and file a Form 2 reflecting the gun is now live. ATF considers re-activating to be manufacturing, and requires the re-activator to mark the gun with his name and address, whether done on a Form 1 or Form 2. If you sent your DEWAT to a Class 2 to make live he would have to transfer it back to you on a fully completed Form 4, as a tax paid transfer. These procedures are not in the NFA law nor the regulations. They are apparently based in part on the Revenue Rulings that created the DEWAT program in the 1950's. As a DEWAT was not a NFA firearm, before 1968, requiring the making tax made sense then as you were making a machine gun out of something that was the equivalent of a door stop, legally. Now that is not true, the DEWAT is a machine gun, and no making tax should attach, as you are not "making" anything, merely changing the gun from unserviceable to serviceable.

Folks who are around NFA guns for very long will find there are still a lot of DEWAT guns that were never registered during the Amnesty, and are now contraband unregistered machine guns. Folks have them in closets, up over the mantle... The only safe course is to abandon an unregistered NFA weapon to law enforcement.