The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 15, 2019, 05:00 AM   #26
armoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 4,871
I did carry a vz-58 concealed once, in a UTG Cover Carry bag, just to see if it was feasible. It was a huge PITA, but it worked at several appointments.
As for this week...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg CZ P-10C online smaller.jpg (85.3 KB, 25 views)
armoredman is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 07:32 AM   #27
Cowboyfromhell
Member
 
Join Date: August 7, 2016
Posts: 37
HK P2000sk 9mm
S.A. RO ELITE OPERATOR .45
Cowboyfromhell is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 09:01 AM   #28
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,845
Springfield EMP 40. Glock 23 at work.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 09:38 AM   #29
John D
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2000
Location: No. Arizona
Posts: 387
S&W Shield 9mm
John D is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 11:12 AM   #30
Willie Lowman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2009
Location: Uh-Hi-O
Posts: 2,666
Glock 26
__________________
"9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens
Willie Lowman is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 05:32 PM   #31
KyJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 8,808
There’s some truth to the “one gun” argument but it overlooks the fact many of us have to dress differently in different situations. Light summer attire leads to smaller, lighter handguns. Winter means a gun with bigger bang and a heavier gun. A suit means one type of gun while jeans means another. I admit to just like carrying a different gun sometimes.
KyJim is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 06:06 PM   #32
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 11,453
Since I was like 12, my keys and wallet.
Since 2014ish, a Walther PPQm2, 9mm, with Federal HST 124gr +P in a leather IWB holster made by an Israeli manufacturer whose name I cannot recall. One extra mag in a Tortuga kydex OWB carrier.
Since 2016ish, a Zero Tolerance 0566CF folder.
Since 2016ish a Sofirn SF14v2.0 flashlight
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 06:51 PM   #33
Bob Wright
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2012
Location: Memphis, Tennessee
Posts: 2,859
This:



Bob Wright
__________________
Time spent at the reloading bench is an investment in contentment.
Bob Wright is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 07:16 PM   #34
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,943
Quote:
ABSOLUTELY, and for good reason.

A firearm is not a doggone fashion statement!


I totally agree.

I simply cannot wrap my head around the idea of regularly carrying several different guns of varying style, type, size, caliber, weight and intrinsic operations. I cant imagine how that can bolster my fighting prowess. I can however imagine how it can hinder it. Especially when you include physiology and typical stress reaction. In my opinion, it may be a mess waiting to happen

I attended a carbine course a while back and my AR system rifle crapped out on me really bad ( I damaged the gas system) and I didn't have enough mags for my back up gun. A buddy gave me his back up and mags which was a AK variant. Even under superficial stress, I flubbed a couple of basic tasks and had to perform certain articulations (twice) because I naturally gave in to muscle memory and trained habit action. I did this probably 3 times during the same module. These errors could easily have been measurably problematic if it were a real fight.

I carry a larger all steel gun in the winter and a smaller polymer gun in the summer. They are of different systems but I don't switch back and forth regularly. I train with and carry the same gun for 6 or 7 months at a time. I do this out of practical necessity and not out of some sort of entertainment value.

I guess what this highlights is the stark difference between people to may be in the hobby of guns and those who simply carry a gun as a tool. I realize that I am probably in the minority with this opinion. I have carried and trained with guns for more than 30 years. I am nearly always armed with a handgun but to be quite honest, I have no affinity with guns and care nothing for them outside of it being a tool of specific purpose. I train regularly out of a sense of moral obligation and desire to maintain a reasonable proficiency. I have never considered shooting guns to be fun or entertaining... rather I consider the whole process to be burdensome and at times, punitive.

Someone might read that and ask.. why am I here. Well, its not because for some interest in guns. I am here to foster discussions on the concept of self defense, personal safety and all things which may help mitigate crime and violence. Those discussions will often include guns but it doesn't mean I am a gun-guy. I think most of you here already know that Im not.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 07:25 PM   #35
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 10,223
Same gun I have carried since 1999. Keltec P32.
The "carry a bigger gun in the winter" thing never appealed to me. You are much more likely to need your gun in hot weather, when the crime rate is up.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is online now  
Old December 15, 2019, 07:53 PM   #36
kenny53
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2015
Location: My back yard
Posts: 715
M&P 9, and M&P 9 compact.
kenny53 is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 08:09 PM   #37
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,943
Quote:
The "carry a bigger gun in the winter" thing never appealed to me. You are much more likely to need your gun in hot weather, when the crime rate is up.
Statistical likelihoods are a very fleeting consideration. Plenty of people fall victim to violent crime in the winter. If I were to rely heavily on statistics and historical data, I wouldn't carry a gun at all, as (statistically) I am not likely to ever need it.

Carrying a bigger gun in the winter is about ease of concealment. I can easily carry a larger gun in the winter ( so why not). I am simply not going to trouble myself to carry a full frame auto during the summer. A smaller gun is a compromise on many levels for many reasons. I do not alter my life to include a gun. The gun will simply have to fit the manner in which I am carrying out my life. To do that( in the summer), its going to have to be a compact gun with half the capacity of my winter gun.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 08:34 PM   #38
mel80
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2019
Posts: 107
glock 19
mel80 is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 08:53 PM   #39
Forte S+W
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2019
Posts: 265
  • Smith & Wesson SW40VE
  • Ruger LCP (BUG)
  • Cold Steel Ti-Lite VI
__________________
I know that Balistics Gel is merely a tissue simulent, but until the day comes in which convicted registered sex offenders are put to good use as a testing medium for ballistics, it's the best we've got. Besides, Ballistics Gel is probably the closest thing to the sort of human sludge that typically requires the use of a firearm in self-defense.
Forte S+W is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 09:04 PM   #40
Nick_C_S
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2013
Location: Taxifornia
Posts: 4,954
686+ 3"

I live in California. (Thank you. I appreciate your condolences .)

On a Ca CCW, you must specify your carry guns; to a maximum of three. So I can't just reach in my safe a grab any ol' gun - not that I would do that.

The three on my permit:

Kahr CW9
Smith 686+ (3" bbl)
Glock 29SF (10mm)

The climate here is warm and light, short-sleeve shirts are the order of the day about nine months out of the year. So in that kind of attire, only the Kahr hides well.

But when the weather is cool and I can wear a wind-breaker, I carry the 686. It's the firearm with which I am the most comfortable and confident. I'm a revolver guy. So the big Smith is my go-to. That's why I like this time of year.

I do carry the big Smith in the summer on rare occasion. For instance, when I go to the range where nobody cares if they see a carry piece printing. Or when I go to put gas in the car - where don't wander far from the pump.

And I sometimes carry the Kahr in the winter. Such as, when I got my hair cut a couple days ago. I don't want the big Smith printing when I'm in the barber seat.

And what about the Glock? Well it's a winter carry piece too. But I hardly carry it at all (probably been two years). I am not comfortable carrying it with a round in the chamber. The trigger has a short pull and makes me nervy. By contrast, the Kahr has a looooong trigger pull - giving plenty of "are you sure you want to do this" time. That's just me. Like I said, I'm a revolver guy.
__________________
Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself.
Life Member, National Rifle Association
Nick_C_S is offline  
Old December 16, 2019, 02:03 AM   #41
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 7,059
student of firearms

I think I see a tendency for the martial artists to surface and view the enthusiast and hobby shooter with a bit of disdain. The old adage of "beware the man with one gun" may well be true, ...........or it may not. Carry more than one "platform" and you are a fashion statement. The hard core, trained up, the gun is just a tool folks, drag out their catch phrases, recite the only way to do things, and look down upon those less informed or having less insight.

Not everyone has the opportunity to attend a shooting school and gain the benefits of force on force training and experience deadly force situations as part of the job. A level of competency with a wide range of firearms, acquired thru personal interest, shooting sports and a bit of training, I think makes for a well rounded shooter and one just as likely to survive an encounter as the "one gun" martial artist types. In fact, my own observations of LEO's in mixed competition is that a lot of them can't shoot near as well as the hobby shooters. If we're going to examine stress and muscle memory sort of things, how do we know that "our" platform will be the one with which we finish and win the fight? Guns break, take rounds and get disabled or have cartridge case head fails. In a prolonged fight (yeah not likely, but so is the likelihood of being in any fight, period) hopefully get replaced with pickups from other officers, maybe even the bad guys, which may or may not be "your" platform.

You better be able to run a Glock, they're common. Same with the 1911 and DA revolvers. So to the AR .....AND....heaven forbid, the AK. And ,there were so many SKS's sold in my area for under $100 bucks, I think everybody in the state must have one. Don't forget all the shotgun types.

Better to be students of the gun, than specialists with a gun.
bamaranger is offline  
Old December 16, 2019, 09:08 AM   #42
IAhunter
Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2012
Location: Cochise County Arizona
Posts: 24
Glock 27.3 most days.
IAhunter is offline  
Old December 16, 2019, 10:12 AM   #43
Road_Clam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2013
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 1,461
Currently during the colder months when I can easily conceal a compact under a jacket / hoodie / sweatshirt, I wear the Beretta Nano with a N82 Tactical Pro holster IWB . Combo works very well for me. I shoot the Nano very well.




During the summer Tee shirt weather I pocket carry the Kimber Micro 380 in the Desantis Nemasis . I'm a very thin build so full concealment of the Nano under a Tee doesn't work well for me.

__________________
"To be old an wise you must have been young and stupid"
Road_Clam is offline  
Old December 16, 2019, 07:26 PM   #44
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,943
Quote:
The hard core, trained up, the gun is just a tool folks, drag out their catch phrases, recite the only way to do things, and look down upon those less informed or having less insight.
That may be a little dramatic. I dont think anyone in this thread has suggested "the only way" to do things.

Being critical of practices, conditions and circumstaces which are considered by some to be potentially distructive, is not really distain or "looking down". To take it that way seems overly sensitive.


Quote:
Not everyone has the opportunity to attend a shooting school and gain the benefits of force on force training and experience deadly force situations as part of the job.
Sure.. which is why its generally a good idea to be open and welcoming to criticism from people do have had the benefit of training and or practical expereince realted to the subject matter.

Quote:
A level of competency with a wide range of firearms, acquired thru personal interest, shooting sports and a bit of training, I think makes for a well rounded shooter and one just as likely to survive an encounter as the "one gun" martial artist types.
Being a good shot and being good at gun handling is not the same being good at fighting. When I say fighting, I am talking about lawful armed self defense against a criminal attacker. I am talking about "combat".

Tactics and strategics can easily make up for less impressive shooting skill but it does not often work the other way around. Absolute marksmanship is rarely the deciding factor in many conflicts. It is tactics and practical knowledge/judgment which usually wins the day, even when the opposition may be fundamentally superior.

Quote:
In fact, my own observations of LEO's in mixed competition is that a lot of them can't shoot near as well as the hobby shooters.
Sure.. I dont doubt that at all. I have trained with some elite shooters who hail from the gun game arena. Those I have trained with did not fair to well in force on force. At leat not until they became squared away in their fighting tactics and how to construct a proper defense in fast moving enviroment. You don't typically gain that type of knowledge from running a stage.

Quote:
If we're going to examine stress and muscle memory sort of things, how do we know that "our" platform will be the one with which we finish and win the fight?
We dont know.. but what we do know is that muddy water is not all that clear. That is why most people who simply select a platform and then invest in it. There is nothing wrong with a back up plan or a varying platform but when it become a "gun of the day" or "gun of the week" kind of thing, its may no longer be a practical attribute. There can certainly be a point of diminished returns when it comes to carrying 4, 5 , 9 different handguns on a regular basis.

Quote:
Guns break, take rounds and get disabled or have cartridge case head fails. In a prolonged fight (yeah not likely, but so is the likelihood of being in any fight, period) hopefully get replaced with pickups from other officers, maybe even the bad guys, which may or may not be "your" platform.
Most gun fights are going to be over in mere seconds. I wont call it fantasy but unless you are on a large scale battlefield, the idea of exploiting the use of "pick-up" is exceedignly remote. I don't consider that scenario a good reason to carry half a dozen different guns on a regular basis. Trained habit action, training scars and muscle memory are all real issues. It does usually require a balance.

...but sure, everyone should probably have a decent "idea" of how to use a glock, revolver, shotgun no matter if they own one or not. It doesnt mean you need to carry 5 different guns per week.

Quote:
Better to be students of the gun, than specialists with a gun.
quips, mantra's and related idioms are not what I base my self defense initiatives on.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old December 17, 2019, 07:33 AM   #45
DMK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2001
Location: Over the hills and far, far away
Posts: 3,050
Quote:
I attended a carbine course a while back and my AR system rifle crapped out on me really bad ( I damaged the gas system) and I didn't have enough mags for my back up gun. A buddy gave me his back up and mags which was a AK variant. Even under superficial stress, I flubbed a couple of basic tasks and had to perform certain articulations (twice) because I naturally gave in to muscle memory and trained habit action. I did this probably 3 times during the same module. These errors could easily have been measurably problematic if it were a real fight.
You have a valid point, but how accustomed are you to an AK? It sounds like you are predominantly an AR shooter and when someone gave you and AK, you didn't have the proper manual of arms motions for that rifle burned in (muscle memory as much as I hate that term) to the same level.

I carry both a semi-auto and a revolver. I practice a lot with both. Not always the same exact guns I carry, but guns with similar manual or arms. I can go back and forth easily with no false moves. I can also do the same thing with an AR and AK. It's because I do a lot of repetitions with those guns. With a lot of practice, you can use different guns. With a lot of practice, you brain will intuitively know which gun you are holding. But you definitely need to commit to practicing regularly with all and not favor a favorite (dry fire and dry weapons manipulation counts if you are doing it correctly and consistently!)

To your point though, I drive a manual trans car exclusively. When I occasionally get into a rented car or work vehicle with an automatic, I'm looking for the gear shift. When I shoot a semi-auto handgun with a heal mag release, I look for the mag drop button (this is also why I never use a slide release lever and I never want a Colt revolver with their backwards cylinder latch). That's because I have uneven practice with those.
__________________
DMK

- Homeland Security begins at home: Support your Second Amendment -
www.gunowners.org - www.grnc.org

Last edited by DMK; December 17, 2019 at 07:41 AM.
DMK is offline  
Old December 17, 2019, 10:06 AM   #46
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,915
Quote:
The hard core, trained up, the gun is just a tool folks, drag out their catch phrases, recite the only way to do things, and look down upon those less informed or having less insight.
I don't.

Quote:
Not everyone has the opportunity to attend a shooting school and gain the benefits of force on force training ....
No, not everyone, but there are many more people who could do so than there are who do.

Quote:
A level of competency with a wide range of firearms, acquired thru personal interest, shooting sports and a bit of training,...
"A level" of competency may not cut it.

And if one can invest in a "wide range of firearms", one can afford training.

Quote:
...I think makes for a well rounded shooter and one just as likely to survive an encounter as the "one gun" martial artist types.
A well rounded shooter" may not be sufficiently proficient in defensive shooting.

"Martial artist types"?

Quote:
In fact, my own observations of LEO's in mixed competition is that a lot of them can't shoot near as well as the hobby shooters.
Off topic.

Also, "hobby shooting " and proficient defensive shooting are different things.

Quote:
If we're going to examine stress and muscle memory sort of things, how do we know that "our" platform will be the one with which we finish and win the fight?
Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but the defender will use what he is carrying, and if it is not what he carried yesterday, he will have to adjust accordingly, and that takes time that may not be available. And yes, muscle memory is indeed part of the equation.

Quote:
Better to be students of the gun, than specialists with a gun.
How's that?
OldMarksman is offline  
Old December 17, 2019, 12:56 PM   #47
Henry400
Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2019
Location: Cowtown, USA
Posts: 17
Pretty much every day except Sunday, Glock 45 OWB, with 2 spare 17 rd magazines. On Sunday, Sig P365 in strong side pocket with spare 12 rd magazine.
Henry400 is offline  
Old December 17, 2019, 05:54 PM   #48
willr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2006
Posts: 355
Kel Tec p32
At my age, 90, anything else is much too heavy.
willr
willr is offline  
Old December 17, 2019, 07:03 PM   #49
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,943
Quote:
You have a valid point, but how accustomed are you to an AK? It sounds like you are predominantly an AR shooter and when someone gave you and AK, you didn't have the proper manual of arms motions for that rifle burned in (muscle memory as much as I hate that term) to the same level.
You are likely fooling yourself if you believe that muscle memory can be evenly distributed across the cerebellum. Even if it were, it doesn't necessarily mitigate lines of habit or trained habit action which may form in the basal ganglia. When you add life/safety type danger, you are introducing a very specific kind of stress which can hinder, cloud and disrupt processes substantially. There are people who during times life threatening danger,.. cannot even remember their address to tell a 911 operator. A person who has lived in a home for 15 years gave his previous address on the other side of town when calling for police assistance during a home invasion. Police responded to the wrong location. Sure.. roll the dice and hope that during substantial stress, your brain accepts that you are telling it that you have a 1911 and not the glock you trained with last night. In my opinion, the gun of the day or gun of the week is just silly business. Fun? sure.. Entertaining? why not. Practical and prudent?.. not really, not if you consider your gun a weapon rather than some sort of bauble. That's just my take on it. Others may feel differently and I have no beef with that at all.

Regularly carrying multiple guns of varying operational characteristics is simply affording your brain another happenstance option during hyper neuron activity(stress). As important as self defense actually is to most of us, I find it exceedingly curious that so many people seemingly want to justify this whole gun of the day nonsense. I am not suggesting that someone stop doing what makes them feel good about their hobby. I am merely suggesting that it could be a problem if it ever becomes go-time.

Quote:
I can go back and forth easily with no false moves. I can also do the same thing with an AR and AK.
great! good luck, perhaps none of these issues apply to you. Still, I offer my thoughts for those who may be receptive to what I have said.

Quote:
you didn't have the proper manual of arms
come on man.. who talks like that? Its not the late 1700's
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

Last edited by FireForged; December 17, 2019 at 07:33 PM.
FireForged is offline  
Old December 17, 2019, 07:18 PM   #50
jcj54
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2011
Posts: 105
This week

Sig P227 .45acp 2 spare mags,S&W .380 Boduguard BUG
jcj54 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13679 seconds with 9 queries