CMP .45's

[Terry G]

$1,000.00 for rack grade? You would have to want one for your collection real bad. If there anything like I carried they would be re-furbished at least once and be poor shooters. But each to their own.

[James K]

I must have been dozing. Last I heard, CMP hadn't released any info on those guns nor had sales been approved by DoD. Congress AUTHORIZED the sale by repealing the ban on handgun sales by DCM/CMP. But they did not MANDATE sales, and some have speculated that it would be a cold day before the Administration defied its anti-gun base and actually sold those guns.

CMP says only that they have no information yet. But some folks seem to know prices, quantities, grades, maybe even serial numbers of guns being sold. I guess I am not "plugged in" to the right rumor mill or have just been asleep.

Jim

[1stmar]

Agree w James K on this. I believe it is all speculation till prices are published. My speculation is... Why would they not be priced in a similar range to the garand? Even the m1 carbine that they recently briefly began to get inventory of (and limited inventory) was priced similar to garands and much less than $1000. If i recall it was in the $600-700 range.

[jcj54]

Congress mandated that surplus arms sold through CMP be priced at market value. Given that the average GI 1911A1 sells for over $1k it is not surprising that the prices are where they are.

[1stmar]

I don't see many m1 carbines going for $600-700. Unless they are not surplus.

[lockedcj7]

I paid $1200 for a fairly rough Remington Rand several years ago. Lots of people told me that I over paid but I haven't found another one for a better price in any condition. I have seen a few at gun shows for $1400 on up but they aren't selling. It's the same guns, show after show.

If CMP offered them for $500, I would buy one in a heartbeat but that's not realistic. There are lots of shooter 1911s on the market at that price buy none of them are WWII milsurp.

CMP has to price guns low enough so that they can move volume but high enough to discourage re-sellers, satisfy their charter and fund their mission. It's a tricky balance. With the latest carbine release, it appears that the price was too low. 5K orders on day 1 shows that they could have priced them higher and would have sold them anyway.

I don't want to pay $1000 for another .45 but I probably will, especially if I wasn't a winner in the carbine lottery. Milsurp used to be a way to get a cheap shooter but that was a long time ago.

[James K]

There is an old saying in the software business that vaporware is cheap. So are vapor guns. When or if we ever see those guns released to the CMP and a sales program set up, we will have all the answers. I am not holding my breath.

Jim

[mapsjanhere]

All depends how many CMP will get to sell. If it's a lot the market price will be whatever CMP asks for, just like M1s sold for CMP price for years. People will buy a dozen and hope to put together a couple of "correct" ones and sell the rest for CMP price. If they sell small batches current market prices won't change much.

[jonnyc]

Seems I recently read a brief interview with the CMP director (forgot his name). He said they would get about 10,000/year to sell, and they price would be $1000 each.
I just updated all my CMP info, but if those numbers are correct I'll probably pass.

[mtlucas0311]

You're thinking of Mark Johnson. At no point did he say they would be priced at $1,000. He has said numerous times that they can't price what they don't have. There will likely be pistols above $1,000 (think WWII guns or more desirable models not quite special enough to go to auction) and I believe, those under $1,000 due to mixed parts, multiple overhaul, and condition. He's constantly pressed about pricing of the 1911's so he threw a number out there.

In my opinion (which is worth no more than anyone else's) you'll see market value on USGI guns tumble when/if the CMP releases a large quantity of these pistols. Look at the prices on pre-64 Winchester model 70's in standard calibers like .270 and 30-06. They were between $1500 and $2,000 at one point, then FN started producing CRF again and now they're under $1,000. Similarly, look at International Harvester Garands. Before they released some big batches over the last year or two, guys would pay big bucks for them, now they only command a modest premium and many go unsold on the CMP forum or GB. It's just supply and demand. Those who want USGI 1911's is finite, those guys that aren't willing to pay $1,000 or more for one now, aren't gonna change their mind just because the CMP is selling them. but if they put those models that the collec-tards aren't that interested in for sale at a price comparable to modern entry level 1911's, I believe they'll order them up on cool factor alone.

[Clock]

I'd think that a 1911 that was made in the 1930s through the 1940s, used during WW2 and then put away until now, would have a collector interest. The gun was in use from 1911 to 1986 officially, but some remained in use. My cousin was issued one in the Gulf War and said it was a POS.
It seems likely that many of the guns the CMS may offer for sale, may have been used for 20-30 years and have mixed parts and been repaired any number of times. As a wall hanger or project gun, I'd be curious for $350 to $450. For $1000, I'd rather have a new gun. Ill concede to being a Philistine.

[44 AMP]

I'd think that a 1911 that was made in the 1930s through the 1940s, used during WW2 and then put away until now, would have a collector interest.

They do!

My cousin was issued one in the Gulf War and said it was a POS

Entirely possible. Also entirely possible your cousin doesn't know what he's talking about. And what I mean by that is that, judging the GI guns by any standard OTHER than the one for the GI guns means you don't know what you are talking about. A lot of folks will name a gun a POS because its not what they think it ought to be, instead of using the standards of what the gun was designed and built to be.

It seems likely that many of the guns the CMS may offer for sale, may have been used for 20-30 years and have mixed parts and been repaired any number of times.

It's not likely its guaranteed. The last purchase contract for 1911A1s (other than some very small numbers for special units & testing) was done in 1945.

All of the guns the CMP might get have been in service since at least 1945!

I was one of the guys who maintained, inspected and repaired 1911s in the 1970s, back when they were still the standard service pistol. I saw numerous 1911s still in service next to their 1911A1 brothers.

Mixed parts? Absolutely, IF the gun was ever repaired. Some guns never have been. Since 1923 when the 1911A1 became the standard, the military has maintained 1911s with 1911A1 parts as needed.

There is no "wrong" parts configuration, there is only "as originally issued", and "as service maintained parts" configurations.

Repaired a number of times? again, yes, quite possible, some guns saw heavy use, if not a lot of firing. Other guns might have spent their entire service lives in arms rooms, only doing guard duty and range quals.

During my time as a Small Arms repairman the majority of pistols that came into my shop were for damaged sights. As long as springs met spec for length and the guns passed their function checks, things didn't get "fixed", or replaced as "upgrades".

When the CMP guns finally do get to the market, the price will be what the market will bear, where ever that finally settles out.

Till then, its rather pointless to speculate what that price will be, isn't it?

[tobnpr]

I think CMP should price 'em at $3000.-$4000. each.
In today's market, there's enough "collectors" that'll pay any price...and hey, the money goes to a great cause!

[kraigwy]

I don't know how many, how much or when CMP will sell 1911s.

Personally I would like to see them dabbled out at the Auction Site to get the most bang for the buck to keep the CMP program funded. I get flamed when I say that on the CMP forums. But US Surplus guns are going be gone one day and the CMP program needs to keep going.

Pieces of Junk???? I'm not buying that one bit. I went MP AIT in 1966. First time I fired on was a practice qualification to see who needed work so they could qualify which was a requirement to graduate. Those who fired expert were pulled from the line and the practice qualification was used. I was in that group, which met I got put on details instead of shooting more.

After that, being assigned to the 82nd MP Company, I qualified expert every time I shot for qualification. The same when I went to the 101st MP company in Vietnam. I transferred to the 2/502 Inf and was given a M-60, I picked up a 1911 got carry through the chow lines or other places you had to have a weapon but didn't need a M-60. I again qualified expert with he pistol.

I also found my self in situations where I was crawling around on my hands and knees in rice paddy mud with the 1911 in my hand, and found out you could shake your hand knocking the big chunks off and it'd work.

Fast forward to a few years to my NG days. Back then they had Combat matches where unit teams had to fire Arms Rooms weapons, not the match weapons. My Unit won state Pistol team matches several years and we went to the Wilson Matches repenting the Alaska NG at the NG National Matches.

I got my only Pistol EIC points with the USGI 1911.

I took over the AK NG Marksmanship unit and ordered as issued 1911s for each unit, so they could use the "arms room quality guns" without having to jump through the hoops of getting them out of the Arms room. I shot most of them and they shot.

They are not target pistols, they are highly reliable combat pistols. The rattle which adds to reliability. But if you take one, rattle as they may, when you pull the trigger, and the barrel locks up, keep holding the trigger back and wiggle the barrel at the muzzle, you'll see they lock up.

I agree, a lot of people cant shoot them, but its the shooters fault not the guns. I've fired one's that I swore couldn't shoot, only to have one of my pistol team members take the same gun and fire scores that would rival any NM Pistol.

I have one I bought years ago, I love it and can still shoot it. We (the AKNG) went to the Berretta's before I retired but I refused to change, when I had to carry a pistol, I carried mine instead of the Berretta, when I had to qualify I did it with my 1911 (firing expert again). Will it shoot as well as my Series 70 Gold Cup I used in Bulls Eye Matches, no, of course not. But its not a match pistol.

Will I buy one if and when CMP starts selling them, probably, would I pay a high price if I have to get one on the Auction Site, Probably.

I figure I will be buying a piece of history, and that's where I would put the value on such a gun.

Like them or not, to pricy or not, it doesn't matter, but there is no way I will agree they are a "sorry POS". Sucker saved my hide more then once when the chips were down. That's not something one tends to forget.

[mtlucas0311]

I sympathize with those of you that want to see the CMP well funded through market value (whatever that may be) sales until all the guns are gone. I also sympathize with the hatred felt towards the dealers and dirtbags who deceive the system to part out or solely sell these arms for profit. But what I am truly worried about is if one of two asshats running for the Presidency is elected. Remember who sent a whole bunch of rifles down the conveyer into the shredder last time??? Until we know one of those two morons isn't going to be at the helm. I don't care if they sell Singers for $0.50 to everybody here except me if it'll get them out of the Army depots and even the CMP's hands. Cause they're a hell of a lot safer in our hands than the governments.


And on a side note, I agree with Kraig. Rattling slide, oblong bushing, bent sight and all, there's no finer pistol out there than a 1911A1....except maybe a High Standard Trophy 107 or a S&W K-38 Target Masterpiece, those are really awesome too.

[James K]

I don't see a lot of impact on the market generally, though there might be impact on the 1911 collector market. The fact is that 10k guns is an insignificant number compared to the total 1911 type market in the U.S, not to mention the rest of the world.

FWIW, that whirring sound is Teddy Kennedy spinning in his grave. First, he tried to ban all government sales and all surplus guns destroyed. He then wanted all the guns that the government had ever sold recalled for destruction (yep, that 1816 musket!). Failing that, he tried to ban sales of semi-autos. Finally, he and his cohorts did get a revision of the way government sales were conducted and a ban on handgun sales. (The latter provision is what has been rescinded.)

Jim

[BoogieMan]

I personally don't think I want the cmp to release them at all. I own a 42 colt. If the market floods with wartime 1911 won't it destroy the value of my 1911?
If it's a case of when and not if I think I will be a seller now.

[44 AMP]

Part of the cash value /market price of the GI 1911A1s is their limited availability.

And the demand for them. In the 80s I got a 43 Remington Rand, it was a $300 dollar gun. By 2000, after Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers, and the 50th and 60th anniversaries of WW II, it was an $800 gun. I have no idea what they go for today, I haven't been looking.

If you got one of the GI guns as something you always expected to sell for a good profit, you're probably not going to be happy when the market becomes another bubble when the CMP begins releasing .45s.

If you got one of the GI guns because of what it was, and the cost was just what you had to do to get one, then having more on the market for a while won't matter much, will it?

Likewise, if you inherited one, and don't plan to sell it, the CMP pistols effect on the market is nil for you too, right??

They aren't on the market, yet, and so far no details are definite, so no plans about them can really be made. Yet.

[BoogieMan]

44amp- I fall more into the enthusiast catagory than the collector catagory. I love all of my 1911s and would be hard pressed to find a pistol that's I prefer. I probably would not have bought a usgi pistol if not for the fact that it found me at the right price. I own many low value guns that are of great value to me because they belonged to my father. As for the usgi colt. I don't have the connection to it that most of you do. Current price is more than double what I paid a year ago.

[johnwilliamson062]

If they release them through the store I will be making an immediate trip to buy a Singer. $1000 wouldn't cause me to pause. If it is $2000 I can sell something else to reduce the sting.

[mtlucas0311]

You won't be seeing any Singers in the stores, or via mail order, sorry. Those would go directly to auction and bring much, much more than $2,000.

[James K]

Advice: Do not hold breath waiting for all those Singers to become available.

Jim

[johnwilliamson062]

Those would go directly to auction and bring much, much more than $2,000.

I can sell two things
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/singer.htm
I guess I should stock up on canned tuna and start aiming for $3500 minimum.
I bet there aren't really any in this lot though. I'll just keep dreaming.

[James K]

As I am sure everyone knows, there were only 500 Singers made; reportedly all or most went to the Army Air Forces. If so, most probably went down over Germany and are not going to be coming back. The odds of even one Singer being still in inventory are so remote as to be near impossible.

Jim

[mtlucas0311]

I guess I should stock up on canned tuna and start aiming for $3500 minimum

....x10 on the CMP auction site. It's one of the very few places where there is almost zero chance of it being a fake and items there routinely bring money well over market value. The running joke is "of the 500 Singers made, there are only about 5,000 left". I do agree with James though, it's a pretty remote chance that there's any in inventory. But you never know, There were only 500 Winchester educational order Garands and a few of those have popped up on the CMP auction. I managed to buy one long ago, not from the CMP, but it's legit and not a reweld.