Who made the first submachine gun? - Page 3

alan · January 14, 2008, 12:00 AM

Edmond:

In the cut away pictures of the MAS rifle I saw, it looked like the gas tube vented to atmosphere, possibly closer to the shooters face than desirable, but that is another matter, and I was looking at an undimensioned picture.

Also, the M-16's "early" problems, some of them, were propellant related. What sort of powder were the French using? Also, how do/did the ID's (inside diameters) of the respective gas tubes compare?

Otherwise, I was not familiar with the MAS rifle, matter of fact, I didn't know that the French had fielded opne. I had seen pictures of what I recall was a MAS rifle, but that was bolt action. Always something to learn.

wiking · January 14, 2008, 02:11 AM

MAS is the French short name for France's State Armoury Manufacture d'Armes de Saint-Etienne Incidentally, this is where the MAS in FAMAS also comes from (FAMAS again is short for Fusil d'Assaut de la Manufacture d'Armes de Saint-Étienne )

The MAS-36 is a bolt action, the MAS-49 and MAS-49\56 rifles are semi auto.

Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAS-36
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAS-49

Edmond · January 14, 2008, 02:31 AM

Until beginning of the 70's, 7.5 ammo was loaded with the same powder for 50 years then used ball powder. the 7.62 NATO was loaded with ball powder since day one.
All was calculated to have minimal gas vent near the shooter, hundred of millions of rounds have been shot without problems.
But some people cut 7.5 MAS barrels in US and rechambered to 7.62 NATO hence creating an excess of pressure since the gas is taken closer to the chamber, a very bad move..

Rifleman 173 · January 14, 2008, 02:28 PM

Wasn't there an American made rifle, right after the turn of the century and before WW1, that was magazine-fed, gas-operated, portable and shot some sort of intermediate size round? It's supposed to on display in some museum in Wyoming, Montana or some place out that way. The people at the museum actually refer to it as "the very first assault rifle." I haven't personally seen it. I've just heard about it. Anybody?

SDC · January 14, 2008, 05:31 PM

Rifleman, you're probably thinking of the Winchester 1905/1907/1910 series; these all followed the same pattern, and even had a certain following in LE circles up through the Depression (after they could get high-cap magazines), but they weren't select-fire.

Edmond · January 20, 2008, 09:06 PM

MP 18.1 live! Enjoy! http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=f6VZlJk_mRE

BAGTIC · January 21, 2008, 03:58 PM

The first submachine gun was the Italian 'Villar Perosa' (1915).

YukonKid · January 22, 2008, 02:43 PM

I concure with above poster, i think this question has been answered rather throughly

"They first pistol-caliber automatic weapon was the Italian Villar Perosa of 1914. This was the "first" SMG.

This was originally developed for aircraft use, but was adapted for infantry use. This was a double barreled weapon with two vertical magazines.

German SMG predecessors were the Artillery Luger with shoulder stock and "snail" drum magazine, and the Mauser 1896 pistol with shoulder stock, and modified to fire full-auto.

The first true SMG was the German Schmeisser-designed, Bergman-manufactured MP-18 of 1918.

It's a toss-up for first commercial SMG between the Auto Ordnance Thompson Model 1921, and one of the Spanish-made copies of the MP-18."

this is Dafarriswheel on the first page. (not taking credit in anyway for his post)

yukonkid

Edmond · January 22, 2008, 03:15 PM

Sorry, no spanish copy of the MP 18. The spanish republican weapons factory started to make a copy of the MP 28 in 1938. So far, the highest observed serial number is below 3000.
The magazine well was made of bronze.

Edmond · January 22, 2008, 03:21 PM

Johnny Guest · January 22, 2008, 05:02 PM

Three pages, three and one-half years in duration.

We're beginning to see repeats of the same information, which is usually a sure sign that the topic has been worn out.

CLOSED.

If anyone has anything NEW to add, feel free to start a new thread, but please, don't simply re-hash this one.

Best regards,
Johnny

January 14, 2008, 02:11 AM	#52
wiking Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: Norway Posts: 29	MAS is the French short name for France's State Armoury Manufacture d'Armes de Saint-Etienne Incidentally, this is where the MAS in FAMAS also comes from (FAMAS again is short for Fusil d'Assaut de la Manufacture d'Armes de Saint-Étienne ) The MAS-36 is a bolt action, the MAS-49 and MAS-49\56 rifles are semi auto. Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAS-36 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAS-49 Last edited by wiking; January 14, 2008 at 03:07 AM.

January 14, 2008, 05:31 PM	#55
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	Rifleman, you're probably thinking of the Winchester 1905/1907/1910 series; these all followed the same pattern, and even had a certain following in LE circles up through the Depression (after they could get high-cap magazines), but they weren't select-fire. __________________ Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.

January 22, 2008, 02:43 PM	#58
YukonKid Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: NW Posts: 744	I concure with above poster, i think this question has been answered rather throughly "They first pistol-caliber automatic weapon was the Italian Villar Perosa of 1914. This was the "first" SMG. This was originally developed for aircraft use, but was adapted for infantry use. This was a double barreled weapon with two vertical magazines. German SMG predecessors were the Artillery Luger with shoulder stock and "snail" drum magazine, and the Mauser 1896 pistol with shoulder stock, and modified to fire full-auto. The first true SMG was the German Schmeisser-designed, Bergman-manufactured MP-18 of 1918. It's a toss-up for first commercial SMG between the Auto Ordnance Thompson Model 1921, and one of the Spanish-made copies of the MP-18." this is Dafarriswheel on the first page. (not taking credit in anyway for his post) yukonkid __________________ This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill Fifteen percent concentrated power of will Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

January 22, 2008, 05:02 PM	#61
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Seems as if this one has been well covered. Three pages, three and one-half years in duration. We're beginning to see repeats of the same information, which is usually a sure sign that the topic has been worn out. *CLOSED.* If anyone has anything NEW to add, feel free to start a new thread, but please, don't simply re-hash this one. Best regards, Johnny

January 14, 2008, 12:00 AM	#51
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Edmond: In the cut away pictures of the MAS rifle I saw, it looked like the gas tube vented to atmosphere, possibly closer to the shooters face than desirable, but that is another matter, and I was looking at an undimensioned picture. Also, the M-16's "early" problems, some of them, were propellant related. What sort of powder were the French using? Also, how do/did the ID's (inside diameters) of the respective gas tubes compare? Otherwise, I was not familiar with the MAS rifle, matter of fact, I didn't know that the French had fielded opne. I had seen pictures of what I recall was a MAS rifle, but that was bolt action. Always something to learn.

January 14, 2008, 02:31 AM	#53
Edmond Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2004 Location: Ukraine, Europe Posts: 120	Until beginning of the 70's, 7.5 ammo was loaded with the same powder for 50 years then used ball powder. the 7.62 NATO was loaded with ball powder since day one. All was calculated to have minimal gas vent near the shooter, hundred of millions of rounds have been shot without problems. But some people cut 7.5 MAS barrels in US and rechambered to 7.62 NATO hence creating an excess of pressure since the gas is taken closer to the chamber, a very bad move..

January 14, 2008, 02:28 PM	#54
Rifleman 173 Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2007 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 589	Wasn't there an American made rifle, right after the turn of the century and before WW1, that was magazine-fed, gas-operated, portable and shot some sort of intermediate size round? It's supposed to on display in some museum in Wyoming, Montana or some place out that way. The people at the museum actually refer to it as "the very first assault rifle." I haven't personally seen it. I've just heard about it. Anybody?

January 20, 2008, 09:06 PM	#56
Edmond Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2004 Location: Ukraine, Europe Posts: 120	MP 18.1 live! Enjoy! http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=f6VZlJk_mRE

January 21, 2008, 03:58 PM	#57
BAGTIC Member Join Date: July 7, 2007 Posts: 97	The first submachine gun was the Italian 'Villar Perosa' (1915).

January 22, 2008, 03:15 PM	#59
Edmond Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2004 Location: Ukraine, Europe Posts: 120	Sorry, no spanish copy of the MP 18. The spanish republican weapons factory started to make a copy of the MP 28 in 1938. So far, the highest observed serial number is below 3000. The magazine well was made of bronze.

January 22, 2008, 03:21 PM	#60
Edmond Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2004 Location: Ukraine, Europe Posts: 120