224 Valk - Page 6

ed308 · May 20, 2018, 06:23 PM

This thread has some info....

http://68forums.com/forums/showthrea...light=valkyrie

stagpanther · May 20, 2018, 07:00 PM

Thanks Ed--I read it but it looks mostly like speculation and not a whole lot of real experience with loads.

I don't profess by any means to be knowledgeable about the cartridge potential--but a few things became quickly apparent to me in the limited loads I did for the 20" PSA upper I bought.

Principal among them--I believe if you really want a long range performing valk gun--you're necessarily going to need a high SD/High BC bullet--and you'll immediately encounter the conundrum of loading enough powder to drive the projectile fast enough, as well as how to stabilize the exceedingly long (for a 224) projectile. It then becomes that all-to-familiar in an AR "tug of war" just how far out you can seat the bullet without risking a jam vs encroaching on the case capacity. That's why I was wishing for just a tad more freebore. H's COL measurements above--some of which are beyond the practical limits of even what the cavity back cutout mag can hold in the lower, seem a bit long to me compared to preliminary measurements I've done--but H is certainly far more qualified than me to comment on that I'm sure. I certainly hope I can match that in the barrel we're getting from him.

stagpanther · May 21, 2018, 08:21 AM

Just for grins--I took a 95 SMK, put it on the end of a drill and dipped it in lapping compound--then turned the inside of a spare seating stem. Went a long way towards reducing the deformation--but haven't quite totally eliminated it, especially under compressed loads. I did a dry test run of the 95 gr SMK seated to a COL of 2.35 per H's measurement--it cycles and comes out OK but I'm still getting a bit of extra resistance upon extraction and I can see the bullet is still getting constricted a bit at the end of the straight freebore--I may do just a touch of chamber polishing to see if that helps.

ed308 · May 21, 2018, 01:19 PM

Following....

stagpanther · May 21, 2018, 02:18 PM

OK--done finished polishing the chamber and using the cavity back mag no problems whatsoever chambering and extracting a 95 MK seated to 2.35.

H is right--me is wrong.

The good news--this should easily enable going past the powder charges typically found for a COL of 2.26.

Question is, who's going first?

stagpanther · May 21, 2018, 02:46 PM

I'll try to load some up tonight. Weather looks pretty crappy for the next couple days--rainy and windy, so not sure how soon I'll get to fire em.

stagpanther · May 21, 2018, 07:07 PM

I can't say how they compare to the creedmoor--but they sure look like them.

ed308 · May 21, 2018, 08:22 PM

Yes they do. That 6.8 looks fat with those skinny bullets. Got the Grendel look! Hope they shoot well for you.

stagpanther · May 21, 2018, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Hope they shoot well for you.

Apprecaite it--but to be honest I really am not expecting that they will stabilize effectively--I just don't think I have enough velocity and twist in the present set-up. For a 224--that 95 gr MK is giant!

stagpanther · May 22, 2018, 11:50 AM

Snuck out before the rain and tested the little beauties above--the good news is that loaded to 2.345 COL they fired, cycled and ejected perfectly with no signs of any friction/damage--meaning there's room to spare for development of future cartridges using high SD/BC bullets.

I ran the charges up to a bit warmer than what Sierra recommended for 2000MR--but I don't think I was even getting near a compressed load at that COL.

The bad news--as I expected I didn't get stabilization with any of the loads at any velocity, and I was getting just under 2700 fps with my warmest load. Conclusion: if you want a big sleek bullet to go long in the 224 valk--it has to have a faster twist than 7 (at this point I'm praying 6.5 is up to the task).

All was not lost however, I think I might have at least found a good "destabilized" load, here's a tight group of 3 out of four shots of 25.4 grs of 2000MR (which is pretty much my go-to powder for the time being--that's a just under inch target dot).LOL

ed308 · May 22, 2018, 02:22 PM

Wow. I'll say tight group! But who knows on the twist. May need a 1:6 twist. But keeping my fingers crossed.

stagpanther · May 22, 2018, 02:27 PM

Quote:

But who knows on the twist. May need a 1:6 twist. But keeping my fingers crossed.

I'm guessing H put a lot of thought and study into it before determining his twist--I hope it really is all that's needed. I don't think I'll ever shoot anything under 75 grs out of it so I'm not worried about "over stabilization."

That's a group of key-holes BTW. LOL

ed308 · May 22, 2018, 02:33 PM

I was wonder if it was. Fooled me. Didn't look like the typical keyholes I've seen.

stagpanther · May 22, 2018, 02:44 PM

The wobble wasn't quite as bad as the lower velocity loads--though some of the stronger loads landed very wide of each other in each shot--I am learning something about bullet instability at least. ; )

ed308 · May 23, 2018, 01:48 PM

H did some testing of his barrels. Not sure if you saw his note. See this thread:

http://68forums.com/forums/showthrea...62#post1333362

stagpanther · May 23, 2018, 02:49 PM

Huh--I don't get it. I load and cycle the 95 MK's with no issue with the bullet seated all the way out to 2.345. I wonder if there is an alignment or magazine issue in his test. I'm guessing he's loading the bullet shorter to fit "conventional" 2.26 COL 6.8 mags (meaning not PRI's cut-out that cavity back makes). Maybe that creates an inadvertent ramp lift issue since that would put the ogive base further back closer to the neck mouth.

I was talking to his friend over at cavity back this morning-- guy is immensely knowledgeable--and by the time I hung up I was convinced I need to take a look at H's 30 harrett barrel. So---got one of them on the way as well.

stagpanther · May 23, 2018, 03:06 PM

Just noticed he said barrel orders received after the 18th won't ship for a while. I ordered mine on the 19th. Drat.

ed308 · May 23, 2018, 07:08 PM

Thor's Hammer! Similar to the TAC 6. My TAC 6 is a sweet little 6mm round. Shoots .5 MOA like most of my ARP barrels. But I hate forming brass for it or my 270AR.

No rush on the barrel for me. I'll be tied up moving next week and the following weeks doing honey do's. Hopefully I'm make it to the range and play with my Valkyrie barrel by July.

stagpanther · May 23, 2018, 07:19 PM

I was kinda hoping the ARP barrel would get here sooner rather than later since I'm "in the groove" working on loads for it--but whatever. I'm still stumped by what might have happened with his test today--I'll keep an eye on that thread. Good luck!

ed308 · May 23, 2018, 10:52 PM

There's a FB site that has a lot of information on the .224 Valkyrie if you do FB:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/842346375944233/

stagpanther · May 24, 2018, 03:05 PM

Loaded up some of berger's 80.5 palma vld's today--they've been lying around forever and I thought this would be a good way to get rid of them.

Ran into what seems to be a consistent problem with seating high BC 224 bullets--so I've developed a "wild" theory about it and am interested in what other's may think (especially if you actually have experience loading them).

After just a few cartridges, I was having extreme difficulty maintaining consistent cartridge COL. At first I though I was inadvertently moving the die or press--but what I think is really going on is that once again the seating stem just isn't cut out--literally and figuratively--for the bigger high SD/BC 224 bullets.

So hear me out.

I think most seating stems are cut to work with 5.56 and wylde cartridges--so the venture into the 80+ territory is not something that most seating dies are turned to work with. The bigger, sleeker high BC bullets have exceedingly long frontal ogives--or more specifically, because of the narrowness of the 224--there is a significant portion of the bullet profile which is very thin copper jacket--often hollow at the meplat--which is inherently weak. This results in easy deformation of the front part of the bullet and an inconsistent seating in the seating stem--depending on the angle of the ogive to the cut of the stem--the front part of the bullet may creep or slip depending on the pressure. All of the loads I did, no matter how hard I tried to control the process--ended up varying widely in COL.

I'm beginning to think the only way to deal with this in the short run is to get a bunch of spare seating stems and turn each one for each of the bigger bullets used in the valk.

Here's 27 grs of 2000 MR--I have no doubt this group would be much tighter once I get the seating thing under control.

stagpanther · May 24, 2018, 06:26 PM

I just read H's description of his RL 17 loads--his experience mirrors what mine did--and is also why I abandoned RL17 for PP2000MR after my first attempt.

I did a set of loads--and even with a taper crimp the bullets "creeped" overnight--so I said the heck with it and pulled the bullets--only to find that the bottom third of the case was filled with compacted "powder mush" that wouldn't come out without a brush.

PS--BTW Ed--I'm not on the 6.8 forum--would be interesting for someone to ask what velocities H is getting with his loads.

ed308 · May 25, 2018, 09:43 PM

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1616847871918886/

From H's FB Valkyrie page....

224 Valkyrie
Starline brass, Russian primers -------------------------------------------
55gr Nosler Bt-30gr CFE oal=2.220" under 3/4"------------------------------------
-75gr ELD-26gr SWM oal=2.290 under 3/4"------------------------------------------
-90gr SMK- 26.5gr RE17 oal 2.345 under 5/8",
-90smk -26.5gr RE17 OAL 2.30" apx 3/4"
-90smk-24.5gr SWM OAL 2.30" apx 3/4"
-77TMK-25.3gr 8208 OAL 2.260 apx 3/4"
-95smk -25.8 RE17 OAL 2.290 under 5/8"
-95smk-24gr SWM OAL 2.290 apx 3/4"

I tried other lengths and other powders but for now it looks like the 95s shoot best at 2.290 and probably where they touch but haven't tried that yet.
They 90s like the jump from 2.3 and dead on the lands at 2.345

I tried 1 random load of each 55gr Nosler, 75 ELD, 77TMK, they were all sub MOA. The 80 Berger random load was right at an inch.
The 95s are much easier to find a 1 moa load for than the 90smks.

I have more factory ammo coming 60 Nosler, 75fmj and more 90smks.
I think the barrels will be fine for handloaders but I am not yet ready to say Federal factory ammo will work. Waiting for the Hornady 88s.
BTW at this point I am positive 2520 is the same thing as Shooters World Match.

stagpanther · May 25, 2018, 11:35 PM

I've used 8208 xbr alot in grendel loads--one of my favorite powders but I'm usually driving 115+ gr bullets. The SW match I often see being pitched as the equivalent of varget.

ed308 · May 28, 2018, 10:11 AM

Harrison updated his website with this info:

The Federal Fusion 90gr factory ammo is not accurate. If your plan is to shoot factory 90gr Fusions do not buy one of these barrels. Some handloads are shown below, they were found with apx 3 hrs of testing.

Starline brass, Russian primers -------------------------------------------
55gr Nosler Bt-30gr CFE oal=2.220" under 3/4"------------------------------------
-75gr ELD-26gr SWM oal=2.290 under 3/4"------------------------------------------
-90gr SMK- 26.5gr RE17 oal 2.345 under 5/8",
-90smk -26.5gr RE17 OAL 2.30" apx 3/4"
-90smk-24.5gr SWM OAL 2.30" apx 3/4"
-77TMK-25.3gr 8208 OAL 2.260 apx 3/4"
-95smk -25.8 RE17 OAL 2.290 under 5/8"
-95smk-24gr SWM OAL 2.290 apx 3/4"

May 20, 2018, 07:00 PM	#127
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,775	Thanks Ed--I read it but it looks mostly like speculation and not a whole lot of real experience with loads. I don't profess by any means to be knowledgeable about the cartridge potential--but a few things became quickly apparent to me in the limited loads I did for the 20" PSA upper I bought. Principal among them--I believe if you really want a long range performing valk gun--you're necessarily going to need a high SD/High BC bullet--and you'll immediately encounter the conundrum of loading enough powder to drive the projectile fast enough, as well as how to stabilize the exceedingly long (for a 224) projectile. It then becomes that all-to-familiar in an AR "tug of war" just how far out you can seat the bullet without risking a jam vs encroaching on the case capacity. That's why I was wishing for just a tad more freebore. H's COL measurements above--some of which are beyond the practical limits of even what the cavity back cutout mag can hold in the lower, seem a bit long to me compared to preliminary measurements I've done--but H is certainly far more qualified than me to comment on that I'm sure. I certainly hope I can match that in the barrel we're getting from him. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

May 21, 2018, 08:21 AM	#128
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,775	Just for grins--I took a 95 SMK, put it on the end of a drill and dipped it in lapping compound--then turned the inside of a spare seating stem. Went a long way towards reducing the deformation--but haven't quite totally eliminated it, especially under compressed loads. I did a dry test run of the 95 gr SMK seated to a COL of 2.35 per H's measurement--it cycles and comes out OK but I'm still getting a bit of extra resistance upon extraction and I can see the bullet is still getting constricted a bit at the end of the straight freebore--I may do just a touch of chamber polishing to see if that helps. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

May 21, 2018, 02:18 PM	#130
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,775	OK--done finished polishing the chamber and using the cavity back mag no problems whatsoever chambering and extracting a 95 MK seated to 2.35. H is right--me is wrong. The good news--this should easily enable going past the powder charges typically found for a COL of 2.26. Question is, who's going first? __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

May 21, 2018, 02:46 PM	#131
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,775	I'll try to load some up tonight. Weather looks pretty crappy for the next couple days--rainy and windy, so not sure how soon I'll get to fire em. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

May 22, 2018, 02:44 PM	#139
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,775	The wobble wasn't quite as bad as the lower velocity loads--though some of the stronger loads landed very wide of each other in each shot--I am learning something about bullet instability at least. ; ) __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

May 20, 2018, 06:23 PM	#126
ed308 Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2016 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 1,147	This thread has some info.... http://68forums.com/forums/showthrea...light=valkyrie

May 21, 2018, 01:19 PM	#129
ed308 Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2016 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 1,147	Following....

May 21, 2018, 08:22 PM	#133
ed308 Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2016 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 1,147	Yes they do. That 6.8 looks fat with those skinny bullets. Got the Grendel look! Hope they shoot well for you.

May 22, 2018, 02:22 PM	#136
ed308 Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2016 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 1,147	Wow. I'll say tight group! But who knows on the twist. May need a 1:6 twist. But keeping my fingers crossed.

May 22, 2018, 02:33 PM	#138
ed308 Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2016 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 1,147	I was wonder if it was. Fooled me. Didn't look like the typical keyholes I've seen.

May 23, 2018, 01:48 PM	#140
ed308 Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2016 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 1,147	H did some testing of his barrels. Not sure if you saw his note. See this thread: http://68forums.com/forums/showthrea...62#post1333362

May 23, 2018, 02:49 PM	#141
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,775	Huh--I don't get it. I load and cycle the 95 MK's with no issue with the bullet seated all the way out to 2.345. I wonder if there is an alignment or magazine issue in his test. I'm guessing he's loading the bullet shorter to fit "conventional" 2.26 COL 6.8 mags (meaning not PRI's cut-out that cavity back makes). *Maybe* that creates an inadvertent ramp lift issue since that would put the ogive base further back closer to the neck mouth. I was talking to his friend over at cavity back this morning-- guy is immensely knowledgeable--and by the time I hung up I was convinced I need to take a look at H's 30 harrett barrel. So---got one of them on the way as well. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!* Last edited by stagpanther; May 23, 2018 at 10:17 PM.

May 23, 2018, 03:06 PM	#142
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,775	Just noticed he said barrel orders received after the 18th won't ship for a while. I ordered mine on the 19th. Drat. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

May 23, 2018, 07:08 PM	#143
ed308 Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2016 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 1,147	Thor's Hammer! Similar to the TAC 6. My TAC 6 is a sweet little 6mm round. Shoots .5 MOA like most of my ARP barrels. But I hate forming brass for it or my 270AR. No rush on the barrel for me. I'll be tied up moving next week and the following weeks doing honey do's. Hopefully I'm make it to the range and play with my Valkyrie barrel by July.

May 23, 2018, 07:19 PM	#144
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,775	I was kinda hoping the ARP barrel would get here sooner rather than later since I'm "in the groove" working on loads for it--but whatever. I'm still stumped by what might have happened with his test today--I'll keep an eye on that thread. Good luck! __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

May 23, 2018, 10:52 PM	#145
ed308 Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2016 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 1,147	There's a FB site that has a lot of information on the .224 Valkyrie if you do FB: https://www.facebook.com/groups/842346375944233/

May 24, 2018, 06:26 PM	#147
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,775	I just read H's description of his RL 17 loads--his experience mirrors what mine did--and is also why I abandoned RL17 for PP2000MR after my first attempt. I did a set of loads--and even with a taper crimp the bullets "creeped" overnight--so I said the heck with it and pulled the bullets--only to find that the bottom third of the case was filled with compacted "powder mush" that wouldn't come out without a brush. PS--BTW Ed--I'm not on the 6.8 forum--would be interesting for someone to ask what velocities H is getting with his loads. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!* Last edited by stagpanther; May 24, 2018 at 06:32 PM.

May 25, 2018, 09:43 PM	#148
ed308 Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2016 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 1,147	https://www.facebook.com/groups/1616847871918886/ From H's FB Valkyrie page.... 224 Valkyrie Starline brass, Russian primers ------------------------------------------- 55gr Nosler Bt-30gr CFE oal=2.220" under 3/4"------------------------------------ -75gr ELD-26gr SWM oal=2.290 under 3/4"------------------------------------------ -90gr SMK- 26.5gr RE17 oal 2.345 under 5/8", -90smk -26.5gr RE17 OAL 2.30" apx 3/4" -90smk-24.5gr SWM OAL 2.30" apx 3/4" -77TMK-25.3gr 8208 OAL 2.260 apx 3/4" -95smk -25.8 RE17 OAL 2.290 under 5/8" -95smk-24gr SWM OAL 2.290 apx 3/4" I tried other lengths and other powders but for now it looks like the 95s shoot best at 2.290 and probably where they touch but haven't tried that yet. They 90s like the jump from 2.3 and dead on the lands at 2.345 I tried 1 random load of each 55gr Nosler, 75 ELD, 77TMK, they were all sub MOA. The 80 Berger random load was right at an inch. The 95s are much easier to find a 1 moa load for than the 90smks. I have more factory ammo coming 60 Nosler, 75fmj and more 90smks. I think the barrels will be fine for handloaders but I am not yet ready to say Federal factory ammo will work. Waiting for the Hornady 88s. BTW at this point I am positive 2520 is the same thing as Shooters World Match.

May 25, 2018, 11:35 PM	#149
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,775	I've used 8208 xbr alot in grendel loads--one of my favorite powders but I'm usually driving 115+ gr bullets. The SW match I often see being pitched as the equivalent of varget. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

May 28, 2018, 10:11 AM	#150
ed308 Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2016 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 1,147	Harrison updated his website with this info: The Federal Fusion 90gr factory ammo is not accurate. If your plan is to shoot factory 90gr Fusions do not buy one of these barrels. Some handloads are shown below, they were found with apx 3 hrs of testing. Starline brass, Russian primers ------------------------------------------- 55gr Nosler Bt-30gr CFE oal=2.220" under 3/4"------------------------------------ -75gr ELD-26gr SWM oal=2.290 under 3/4"------------------------------------------ -90gr SMK- 26.5gr RE17 oal 2.345 under 5/8", -90smk -26.5gr RE17 OAL 2.30" apx 3/4" -90smk-24.5gr SWM OAL 2.30" apx 3/4" -77TMK-25.3gr 8208 OAL 2.260 apx 3/4" -95smk -25.8 RE17 OAL 2.290 under 5/8" -95smk-24gr SWM OAL 2.290 apx 3/4"