Manufacturing your own press

[xandi]

On my internet travels, somewhere awhile back, I read of some one making a reloading press out of an axil
What would the viablity of making on today?
Say using part of a railroad track?
Or 2 inch plate?
What are the threads on common dies? How about lee breechlock?
Expand and extrapolate as you will

[Grey_Lion]

The vast majority of loading dies do have the same threading - yes.
If you weld and have the tools there are plans out there for free to make your own steel press. I haven't had the guts to try it even thought I have access to a full machine shop. I just don't trust myself to get the tolerances tight enough.

At the end of the day it will simply be cheaper and faster to buy a press. But I say this having the resources to do so and not all are that fortunate.

[xandi]

How tight do the tolorences need to be?
I have access to a mill and welders
Cheaper it may be, however it might be fun (:

[F. Guffey]

I have arbor presses, one is a Dake; one day I decided I could use more room and strength so I modified the Dake arbor press. Shell holders were not a problem, I used Herter shell holders in the arbor (upside down) and made a hold down plate for the dies.

Moore room: I made another plate with a coned hole for a barrel, I used the arbor press to press cases into the chamber to determine chamber dimensions.
With a 3' foot bar there was no overloading the press.

The most magnificent press I have ever seen was a press made by a crew member of a B17, he volunteered for a one way mission one Christmas day to Germany. It was a rough trip. He went to school on the GI Bill and majored in engineering and then went to work for Chance Vought. He took up shooting and reloading, operating the equipment was a challenge.

At first he thought 'all he had to do was ?' add the hydraulics, the problem? There were no presses up to the task because he rendered them scrap. He started from scratch with a small learning curve. The big problem was releasing the pressure before the piston busted his home made press. His ram was pressure up and pressure down.

And then one day I thought I would build a press with assist, I had help, problem; my help did not have instructions. When I picked up all the parts I find the valves and cylinders were air cylinders, too slow. My help thought the cylinders were strong enough because the cylinders were rated at 2,000 psi. Their thinking? The high pressure cylinders would save space. I never found a pump.

F. Guffey

And do not forget to lube your cases before pressing the case into the chamber.

[reddog81]

Originally Posted by xandi

How tight do the tolorences need to be?
I have access to a mill and welders
Cheaper it may be, however it might be fun (:

How concentric do you want your ammo to be? The tolerances need to be pretty tight if you want decent ammo. You can buy a Lee Challenger press for $70.

The Lee breech lock would be a good option if your living out of a backpack.

[mikld]

Single stage presses are extremely simple (a high school metal shop project). I would start with a solid block of metal (steel or aluminum) at least 2" thick. I would machine the center of the block to make the block into a square "O". I would line bore a hole near one side/edge of the "O" and ream one hole for 7/8-14 threads and the other hole bored to 1 1/2". This is the frame. I would machine a slot in one end of a 1 1/2" steel rod for a shell holder, and machine the other end of the rod for linkage.Then I would copy the linkage from another press and assemble. Solid, no welding, simple. The main consideration is the alignment of the die and ram/shell holder, the reason for line boring.This is a "Readers Digest" version...

[hdwhit]

mikld wrote:
Single stage presses are extremely simple (a high school metal shop project).

What you describe sounds intriguing.

Of course, since my first degree was Agricultural Engineering, I tend to think of more "pedestrian" approaches. I think I'd take my inspiration from the Lee Pro 1000.

[JeepHammer]

I'll go one direction, since I've built about 6 single press designs...

I was obsessed with concentricity. (OCD kicking my butt hard!)
Evaluations of presses, mainly the strongest of the time, the Rock Chucker, got me measuring four places behind the decimal point.

What I found out after a ton of money & work was what Mr. Guffy has said several times,
Either your press beats the brass, or your brass beats the press.

First off, 99% of presses have a stroke (ram travel) that's too long.
Most of us aren't trying to bend .338 Lapua or .50 BMG length brass.
The ram simply bows sideways offsetting the head of the brass at an angle.
When the head is cocked at an angle to the sides, which are trapped in a die and can't move, you angle the head (floor plate) of the brass.

'Camming Over' the press, running the shell holder into the die both aggravate this issue.

The thicker the ram the better.
Thin rams deflect, thicker ones won't. Simple.
Larger diameter rams simply deflect less, and hardened around 1.75" they stop deflecting, you simply have enough ram to whip the brass without deflection.

The second thing I found was loose threads.
Usually the press had oversize threads allowing dies to slop around.
The jam nut keeps the die from unscrewing, but it doesn't keep the die from shifting sideways.
The tighter the thread engagement the better, and having the jam nut BELOW the press hoop helps keep the die from moving around.

The third biggest issue I found was the ram guide was loose and too short.
The longer the guide/slide block at the bottom of the press the better.
Combined with a short stroke, a thick, hardened ram stopped deflecting.
The large diameter ram combined with zero lash (press) bearing allowed for free movement while reducing wear friction so the hole/ram didn't wear.

Keep in mind the typical cantilevered ram handle linkage side loads the ram, without a long, bushed guide block the ram IS going to deflect/angle off...

What I thought was going to be the biggest issue, frame stretch, wasn't as big of an issue as I thought.
What I was blaming on frame stretch turned out to be 'Spring Back' (rebound of the brass, resistance to bending).

It is true that cheaper presses, especially open 'C' frames open the ends of the 'C' when you attempt to size a brass, and I won't use a 'C' frame for sizing.
I simply don't consider up to 0.004" or 0.005" range in Datum line to head measurement acceptable.
This is the measurement that matches the headspace in your chamber, and having 0.0025" +/- range isn't acceptable for anything but blasting ammo...

Better iron 'O' frame presses (depending on how big the 'O' is...) cut that Datum line issues in half right away...
When you get Datum line movement under 0.001" to 0.0015" total, you are just dealing with 'Spring Back', resistance of different hardness brass to sizing.

This is where a 'Co-Axial' type press shines.
If the side rods are adjusted correctly, the Co-axial press will give really consistent results, and you only have to deal with 'Spring Back'.
This is where a good Datum line case gauge/measuring tool comes in, and some feeler gauges to slip under the head of the case for the stubborn cases.
Feeler gauges keeps you from 'Over Camming', 'Bumping' or trying to adjust die depth, or switching out shell holders trying to get the Datum line in the correct place.

One try at a press I used an eccentric (think camshaft lobe) to push the ram.
Awkward at best, with a big eccentric & bearings/mounts sticking out directly below the ram (knee knocker) but produced good brass.
With a roller bearing on the bottom of the ram, force was applied more directly upward without hard, banging stops that deflected the ram.
That particular press head was set up to lower the die 0.001" & 0.002" for stubborn brass.
That's where I found out the feeler gauge was faster since you had to remove brass from shell holder to measure anyway, when you put it back in the press, simply slip a feeler gauge under the brass for the next try.

I also tried a crankshaft throw type ram actuator, the connecting rod from crank to ram helping to remove deflection, but too many connection points with slop in them for really accurate brass.
Dillon uses a connecting rod type arrangement on the 1050 with 'Acceptable' results, but the 1050 gets a LOT more accurate when you switch to a hardened steel connection rod on hardened, tighter tolerance pins...

I used solid blocks, but I found laminated plates work just as well, and MUCH easier to work.
If you have the facilities, surface ground shim stock (hardened) using EDM to bore holes makes for a quick (but somewhat costly) way to make a frame.
The shim plates give you an absolutely flat/true/smooth starting point.
(Like I said, OCD kicked my butt! Cost me a fortune!)

Since I'm not shooting rail guns, or even bench rifle competitions anymore, I find several of the commercial presses acceptable, and for the money & plug & play ease, I'd have to recommend them.

The two types of presses I can't recommend, open side 'C' press, or a true 'Turret' press.
Guys with the big, old, heavy built true turret presses defend them to the death, but I've never seen one I couldn't walk up to and wobble the turret, and mounted on a center pin, angles the die away from centerline of the ram.
I've never seen one you couldn't wobble the ram sideways in the guide hole, which allows ram to deflect off centerline of the die.

I messed with a couple of turret presses, cast iron deflects, the slop is hard to chase out of the turret/axle pin, and the die holes are always oversized, the die wobbles going into the hole so it's going to deflect during operation.
Just too many things to fix...
The turret center pin NEEDS to be at least 3" in diameter to keep from deflecting since the dies are leveraged off out in space off centerline, and the hub center of the turret needs to be at least 3" high to keep deflection to a minimum.
Turret pins & turret centers are never that wide/tall.
I built a riveter (brass & copper rivets) on turret arrangement, and to keep an 1/8" from deflecting it took 3"... Rounding over the head of an 1/8" river is comparable to the force of sizing a .30 caliber case...

Not saying an old style true turret can't work, I'm saying the ones I've seen have too loose of tolerances and too small of hardware for cast iron components.
Chasing all the 'Bad' out would take a redesign allowing for MUCH larger center post, much tighter tolerances (bushings or zero lash bearings, something to take the friction out of cast iron parts) and MUCH thicker turret plate to reduce flex since this is an open 'C' press design.

I always wondered about a much larger 'Axle' post with a bridge arm over to the turret right at the die, roller just behind the die (or outboard of the die) to slow down/stop deflection?
Anyway, with closed frame presses, I don't see any future in those old open presses, although guys still swear by them...

[JeepHammer]

Hdwhit, I try to tell people that, but everyone wants light weight 'Wonder Materials' and CNC controls now...
You don't need aerospace materials or computer control to stamp rivets or bend brass, and when I tell them common materials are heavier, and the machine *Should* be a little overbuilt they scoff...
Then I show them something from the 1920s or 1950s that is still working quite well, just bigger & heavier, but 100 years old and still working every day...

There are three big bonuses to 'Simple' & 'Heavy Duty'...
1. Works for 100 years or more with no fails of base machine. Reliable as an anvil or hammer.
2. Dirt simple to work on, common parts are available & reasonable priced.
3. Latest/Greatest, 'State Of The Art' means cubic dollars,
Buying a million dollar 'State Of The Art' machine isn't the end of it, you need that $70,000 a year qualified operator, and people come & go...

'State Of The Art' is only SOTA for about 6 months, you are always playing catch-up...
SOTA manufacturers routinely discontinue machines & specific parts needed for operation.
I have a customer sitting on a $3 million machine no one makes the control computer for anymore and it's 6 years old...
It's $300 worth of scrap now, been looking for a control computer for almost a year!

I bought Dillon for two reasons, the idiot proof warranty & the sheer volume of production.
I buy up spare parts when I find them just in case Dillon goes under or stops making them.

I still disc up my garden with a disk made in 1938, it's dirt simple & therefore 100% rebuildable.
I pull it with a 1948 overbuilt tractor since it's a garden and doesn't need a super duper, GPS monitored, computer controlled overwatch system, with a 700 HP tractor.
I could use a $4,500 rototiller, but things go wrong with rototillers that require proprietary parts.
The $800 tractor & $65 disc will sit for 6 months at a time without complaint, for decades on end... Proven! And it fits my APPLICATION really well...

No fuel injection to fail, battery on quick connector, I use the same battery in most of my equipment so it doesn't discharge, and an inexpensive rebuild on the engine, new clutch a few years back should give me another 60 years or so of service.
The most it's ever needed was a shot of starting fluid when I wanted to push snow at -5*F.

-----

One thing I did was run two rods, drilled top to bottom, right next to the die/ram on a Rock Chucker.
That was my first attempt to reduce deflection/stretch of the press frame.
Something that simple & cheap was my first try, and it taught me the Rock Chucker fame doesn't stretch all that much... I was mostly dealing with 'Spring Back'.
The second thing I did was build a larger diameter ram & harden it. Never regretted that upgrade.

I still use that press, with or without bolts/rods.
It did show me the opening on most presses is too big, I guess there are guys out there that need both hands in the press to load, or there is a market for guys with 5 gallon bucket sized hands I don't know about!
I mostly closed the opening up in my built presses, especially when using common materials that weren't hardened. Smaller the opening, the less stretch/deflection.
Shortening the stroke helped a bunch, and allowed for longer bearing surface block to support the ram for the same height package.

My first try at closing up the oversize threads in the frame was simply wrapping a copper wire in the threads which believe it or not, helped a lot!
While you are forming copper, it's hard to crank the die into the frame, but it REALLY closes up the slop between threads.
If you have enough threads sticking though the frame (common dies a trimmed WAY too high most times) putting a jam nut on the INSIDE of the frame really locked the die up a lot.
Between copper wire & inside but the die deflected virtually zero, even with really hard, stubborn cases.

This requires nothing more than copper wire and a second jam nut. Farmer engineering!
APPLICATION, APPLICATION, APPLICATION!

[F. Guffey]

Jeep Hammer, In the old days manufacturers had 'fixes' for 'C' type presses, not all required the 'fix'. A manufacturer tested presses of the day, the press with the sliding collar around the center post did not get rave reviews, that is the reason I was surprised RCBS introduced their version a few years ago.

In the old days they used deviation gages/dial indicators to determine what effect sizing had on the frame of the press. It worked for someone with a strain gage and now there are load cells.

And then there are tension gage, my tension gages do not measure tension, they measure deflection in thousandths or they measure/calibrated in pounds, when using my strain gage they come in handy.

And then there was the press that failed, the best way to describe it when being operated: "It looked like a spider doing push ups"; I found one at the NAPA Valley Flea Market. A dealer involved in kitchen hardware was selling it as a juicer. I explained to him the only way it could work as a juicer is to mounted it upside down under the counter/table. To protect the public I purchased it for $15.00.

F. Guffey

[TruthTellers]

For the price and quality of a single stage Lee press, I wouldn't bother. You won't be able to make as good a press as what the press manufacturers do. You can spend the time doing other things, like reloading.

[hounddawg]

the precision of any equipment will be limited by the least precise component in the system. For what we are talking about that would be the shellholder which floats in the press and the case floats in the shellholder. Unless you have a shellholder which holds the case precisely in alignment to the die you will need that float to allow the case to align to the die. The dies are what determine the concentricity of the neck and bullet

The best concentricty I have found is to FL resize using Redding body dies then neck size using Lee collets. I am considering replacing the Lee and micrometer seating dies with Wilson bushing neck dies then seating with a Wilson chamber die

back to the OP. I can think of no way to improve upon the commercial presses but good luck in your endeavors and let us know what you achieve. I am always looking for a better mousetrap

[T. O'Heir]

A reloading press isn't terribly complicated. It's just a method of holding the die and shell holder on a ram. All of which are at just the right angle to have the case go straight into the die.
The threads on dies are all the same. 7/8-14.
"...viability of making..." Viable, but not cost effective.
"...Farmer engineering..." Wad of gum, a bit of wire and bent nail. Friggin' guys are amazing.

[gwpercle]

I love DIY projects...but honestly I would pay the $371.16 CH4D is asking for their Champion Press before taking on making my on. The press is the easy part....the compound linkage is what needs to be worked out.
CH4D spent two years with engineers and working with a leading university to perfect the linkage , handle and ram system .....I don't think reinventing the wheel is worth it .
Gary

[xandi]

I can spend $300 on more important things then a press.lol. I already have a lee press so it’s not like I’m trying to gear up. I’m entertaining the idea for fun and knowledge
That’s a good point about the fit of the shellholder and case to shell holder having a lot of play. Thinking about it if was a big enough deal one could gear machine one out
Just looked at a tap for dies, not that bad(cost wise)

[xandi]

I had a though: how well would a shot out bull barrel be as a presses ram in its next life(and where to find one)?

[F. Guffey]

There is a lot of verbiage about alignment, I have never seen or read anything about how to accomplish it, I have operated a lot of portable equipment, the most difficult part about using portable equipment is alignment. And now I have presses', lots of presses.

One day I decided to check my Rock Chuckers, the plan was to make a tool that checked alignment, the thinking? If it aligns under a load I should be able to remove the alignment equipment while under a load. It was then I decided if the press was going to align I would have to consider changing the design, and then? I got over it.

F. Guffey

[jmorris]

If you have a lathe and arbor press you can make some accurate ammunition. Not unlike the Lee “wack a mole” kits but without the beating with a hammer. As above a number of bolt together style out there, some of the bullet swage designs are very robust. Also as above, cheaper/easier just to buy one but I understand that’s not as fun to some.

[F. Guffey]

Also as above, cheaper/easier just to buy one but I understand that’s not as fun to some.

Again, the most magnificent press I have ever seen was built by one of the survivors form a B17 crash, it was the only B17 that was up that day and to speed thing up they removed all unnecessary personal, ammo and 50s. The point? They got a lot of attention.

He built his own equipment because there was no equipment available, a recourse person in everything military got the press, from him I got a sled built by the same shooter/reloader/veteran. I have never had an interest using a sled but I am to the point my neck can not tolerate the impact; I will take the sled the next time I go to the range or I will take grandchildren; problem with the grandchildren, given a choice they will choose the 7mm57.

F. Guffey

[Unclenick]

Xandi,

IRRC Lee (and probably most others) co-bore the holes in the frame for the ram and the die thread (7/8"-14 tpi) to ensure co-axiality. However, the dies and presses that seem to make the lowest runout ammunition generally have components that float for self-alignment. The Forster Co-ax press has an intentionally loose horizontal hold on dies so a case entering the die tends to nudge it (the die) into alignment with that case. The Redding Competition Seating Die has a floating seating ram/stem and German Salazar found it beats even the Wilson arbor press dies in getting bullets concentrically seated.

In any conventional press, the case head usually has a little horizontal wiggle room, allowing the case to change position perpendicular to its axis to center it in the die. Twenty-five years ago, I recall John Feamster wrote the first information I'd seen about putting an O-ring over the threads on a die so it wound up between the top of the press frame and the underside of the die's lock ring. The flexible interface allows the die to slip in the threads a little. He found that helped a conventional die align better by letting it make slight final self-adjustment to axiality.

All that said, though, there are factors that always impede achieving perfect alignment. Boltface impressions and rims bent by extractors or ejecting onto concrete mean cases don't sit perfectly upright in a shell holder, so the loose, self-adjusting fit approach is needed to work them straight anyway. No amount of perfection in the press will overcome that. Letting the die slide around on the horizontal plane as the Co-ax press does is one way to overcome this, but others have observed they get a similar self-alignment action from a press that has a slightly sloppy ram fit that wiggles around a little in addition to the looseness of the shell holder.

So, let's assume first that you are not going to go into the business of manufacturing presses, but rather will spare yourself the expense of a factory by fabricating just one from steel stock of one kind or another, perhaps after the fashion of the Corbin hand presses. These use a base plate and a die plate and steel shafting with ends shouldered and threaded for retaining nuts to create the "O" throat of the press. A sliding plate aligns the top end of the ram.

If you have a boring head for your mill, you can clamp all the plates together and co-bore their holes for essentially perfect alignment. If you have a large enough tapping head, you could thread from there as well. Personally, I'd center and clamp the die plate to the faceplate on my lathe and single-point cut the threads. As far as precision goes, some horizontal freedom of movement may actually be desirable, but you ultimately want the case to achieve axial alignment with the dies, however you get there.

[HiBC]

I'm a machinist.I have access to machine tools .
I can chucka piece of round stock,turm it down,cut six flats to make a hex,and single point threads to the specs in a machinery handbook.I can make a bolt.
Its not what I choose to do with my time,because I can get a grade 8 bolt at the NAPA store.
But if I need a special bolt,drilled and tapped for a grease zerk,with holes drilled for grease ports .. I might make what I cannot buy.

So,I am interested in the "Why?" of making a press,given what is available.

Its pretty tough to pay for the steel billet to machine what someone else is making from castings. Cutters are expensive,and time is money.

You MIGHT make an ultimate press with a jig borer,Thompson linear shafting and bearings,or a punch press die base.But you won't save any money.

I agree with Uncle Nick (that always easy!) However you get co-axial ammo ,its the co-axial ammo you want.
How do you know you have co-axial ammo?? You see,ideas and experiments need to be measured...or you don't learn anything.

So,first build,or buy,a fixture with a dial indicator to check ammo runout.

Then try raising your ram on a store bought press to put an end load on your die before setting the lock ring.An O-ring under the lock ring is another trick.

What happens when you set a part in a vee block? It tries to center.Same with a center drill and lathe center,right?

Aren't threads sort of a spiraled 120 degree Vee,or cone? With an end load,threads are tapered surfaces that will find center. The die lock ring competes,and can throw things cockeyed,like an unsquare receiver face.The O-ring lets the threads be the master.The lock ring maintains a preload on the treads in the same direction press force is applied.

Nothing personal,Jeephammer,but the idea of putting the lock ring on from below probably puts the lock ring on a surface that,if it is not rough cast,was not machined in the same setup as the threads and ram bore.
And it preloads the threads in the direction of the slack.Will the ram force overcome the lock ring pre-load?

Consider and try all the theory,then measure the results with a dial indivator in your ammo co-ax fixture.

as Uncle Nick said,the Bonanza system relies on float. It works.

Collet sizing works.

There is more than one way.

Are you competing bench rest or deer hunting? Or plinking at cans?
When is ammo good enough? If extra hours at the press get your groups 1/4 MOA smaller,great!! If you are a benchrest competitor.
Or,in the same time,you might load 200 more "pretty darn good" rounds.
Then you can go SHOOT!
And maybe the practice will make YOU a 1/2 MOA better shooter.

Or you can make a reloading press.

[jmorris]

He built his own equipment because there was no equipment available,

I have done that lots of times myself but I own more than a dozen presses and have owned dozens of others in the past. There is no shortage of different designs and new ones are comming out on a regular basis.

There is a lot of verbiage about alignment, I have never seen or read anything about how to accomplish it..

That would be the easy part take the Op’s hypothetical 2” plate and stand it up on end. Now drill a 13/16 hole all the way through. While it’s still sitting there run a 7/8-14 tap in the top inch or so. Now lay it flat and mill out however large a window you want in the “O” shape. Now you have a 7/8-14 tapped hole that is also the same hole as the bottom 13/16 hole you can have a ram run up and down through.

Here is a version done that way but they just milled a pocket instead of a hole would make it more solid but it’s also not something I would worry about if using 2” steel plate, a good idea with the aluminum though.



Just costs more and takes a lot longer than doing essentially the same thing in a casting like everyone else does.

For the OP, Google “homemade reloading presses” and click on the “images” tab, ou are sure to find inspiration in the photos.

Like this one.

[F. Guffey]

I have done that lots of times myself but I own more than a dozen presses and have owned dozens of others in the past. There is no shortage of different designs and new ones are comming out on a regular basis.

I never understood the reason for the need for a one way trip to Germany in a striped down B17 with a three man crew but they did it. The reloader that built the hydraulic press lost an arm, again, the press he built is one of the most magnificent presses I have ever seen. To see it the owner had to open the cabinet doors, to watch it run I crawled under the cabinet and instructed the owner to turn it on and start sizing cases.

We (the US )were making round trips to Berlin on a daily bases in Spitfires we got from England. The crewman/shooter/reloader was the camera operator in the B17.

F. Guffey

[hounddawg]

jmorris- Just costs more and takes a lot longer than doing essentially the same thing in a casting like everyone else does.

quoted for truth.

Take a look at a case sitting in a case holder, wiggle it. Then take a FL sized case, lube it, then slide it up in a FL die. Not too far or it will stick but just before it does wiggle it. Could that case be aligned in that die any more precisely than you just did with your fingers ? That case holder has slop for a reason, it is to allow the case to align to the die

There are some bragging quality press' available and if I had access to a full machine shop and some stainless I am confident I could build one that would make jaws drop. That does not change the fact it would not do any better a job at loading regular ammo than a $80 dollar Lee

If you really want a bragging rights press get one of these and some Wilson chamber dies

http://www.cowboysew.com/product8a.htm

[F. Guffey]

jmorris- Just costs more and takes a lot longer than doing essentially the same thing in a casting like everyone else does.

The builder of the hydraulic press was not like everyone else, he had one arm. Again, he started modifying existing presses, he rendered all of them scrap. To reload he had to start over with a new press that did not exist.

F. Guffey