OAL ?

Targa · March 28, 2019, 08:36 AM

Hi all, I am curious what you consider to be an acceptable deviation in OAL for your reloads. I am loading 240 grain JHP 44mag and my Lyman manual has OAL at 1.61”. When I seat the bullet I am at the 1.61” but after a heavy factory crimp I am at 1.72”. My thought is to seat the bullet deeper to compensate the deviation after the crimp.

NoSecondBest · March 28, 2019, 01:02 PM

OAL is an approximation. Depending on the bullet profile/ogive, that length may change a bit. If your gun allows the loaded round to chamber and the cylinder rotates that's all you need to be good to go. If the bullet has a cannelure, just crimp into it and let the chips fall where they may.

Targa · March 28, 2019, 01:33 PM

Thank you. I crimped at the cannelure, i’ll stick with that then and call it good.

T. O'Heir · March 28, 2019, 01:37 PM

SAAMI max OAL for .44 Mag is 1.610" measured from the pointy bit of the bullet(even if the pointy bit is flat) to the flat bit of the case with no ogives involved. Minimum OAL is 1.535". ALL North American made firearms chambered in .44 Mag adhere to those numbers.
Does the loaded round stick out of the cylinders? If not, you're OK at the 1.72".
However, whatever you're doing with that "heavy crimp" is not right. The bullet should not move to lengthen the OAL when crimping. A crimp should be just enough to hold the bullet in place under recoil too. I'd lighten up on the crimp. Unless you're loading very hot.

ligonierbill · March 28, 2019, 01:48 PM

I agree that you should be good crimping in the cannelure, but I'm not sure how you would get another 0.1" COL by crimping. FWIW, my 240 JHP loads are Hornady XTP at 1.588 and Nosler JHP at 1.566, both with a firm crimp. I also load some Cast Performance 320s that go 1.707 crimped in the groove.

FrankenMauser · March 28, 2019, 02:08 PM

You should not be gaining 0.110" by crimping. Somethings wrong there.

If it were merely a COAL deviation, we'd be talking about 0.010" to 0.030" being okay, due to bullet variation - depending upon the cartridge and reloader.
But smashing the bullet with a FCD for another 0.110" is not 'deviation', it's unintended modification.

As for 1.72" COAL... That may or may not work, depending upon what you're shooting it in.
Cylinder length varies by brand and model, ranging from 1.700" to 1.8+".
For example: It would work in my S&W 29; but would lock up the cylinder of my Super Blackhawk, when the first round came around and hit the forcing cone.
The same is true for some rifles. Some of the .44 Mag carbines on the market are very picky about COAL. Get too long, and they start having problems.

Targa · March 28, 2019, 03:27 PM

Im using H110, I will lighten up on the crimp a bit and see if that brings me within a acceptable range.
Thank you all, for the input, I am starting out in reloading and the help is appreciated.

RC20 · March 28, 2019, 03:29 PM

Something is definitely wrong.

I would seat in one step and crimp in another (get a separate die, I have) and see what occurs.

That seat and crimp thing is possible but its way too fiddly. Yea it saves a die at a cost of time and difficult to change.

Its not that it grows (though that can be a bad thing) its that it doing git at all.

Targa · March 28, 2019, 03:31 PM

I am crimping separately with a Lee FCD. I will definitely back it off a bit and take another look at it.

NoSecondBest · March 28, 2019, 04:16 PM

A good enough crimp to hold the bullet with any load really doesn't have to be crimped so hard that it's obvious to any "untrained" eye. Just about any crimp at all will hold the bullet even under full power H110/W296 loads. Forty-five plus years ago when I started reloading I started out over crimping because it wasn't all the obvious to me that the crimp was adequate. It really takes very little to hang on to the bullet while shooting a cylinder full of max loads. You can feel the crimp being applied as you set the die up. It doesn't take all that much to get enough.

zeke · March 28, 2019, 06:46 PM

While i can not know exactly what is going on, revolver LFC can produce 2 styles of crimps in revolver. It can just crimp into the cannelure, or if turned down far enough can produce a roll crimp with the leading edge pressed parallel to the bullet. A Redding profile crimp can do essentially the same thing. If adjusting the die for the hard crimp, it may be adjusting the col slightly based on the col and the cannelure location.

Targa · March 29, 2019, 07:11 AM

Over crimping must have been the issue, backed the crimp off and I am now at 1.63. Also thank you all again, it’s nice to be challenged to rethink my inks so to speak...

lordmorgul · March 30, 2019, 09:34 AM

Sounds to me like you need to Raise your crimp die itself in the press and then adjust down the crimp adjuster to compensate.

Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders!

Targa · March 30, 2019, 02:31 PM

I just started from scratch per Lee’s recommended settings for each die to include the crimp. I was way off on one or all of the dies adjustments, now I am at 1.59-1.60”. Thank you all for your help.

FrankenMauser · March 30, 2019, 02:49 PM

Yea, Lee's instructions for FCDs are terrible.
In response to a heated discussion about the FCDs 6-8 years ago, I dusted off my .270 Win FCD and used it exactly according to Lee's instructions.

The result was smashed bullets, varying COAL, and substantially diminished performance down-range (notably increased group size, and jackets tearing where they had been squished, when impacting clay for expansion testing).

FCDs can be useful tools, and have their place for some cartridge and bullet combinations. But Lee's default adjustments are a step away from quality ammunition, rather than a step forward.

Grey_Lion · March 31, 2019, 03:22 PM

There is the recommended OAL from the ammo design specs and this is usually mirrored by factory ammo.

https://www.google.com/search?q=9mm+...WpF4kmnjJGgvM:

Then there is what your weapons will tolerate which will differ slightly from design specs on occasion.

Then there is what your loads dictate based upon the projectile - i.e. cast v powder coated v swaged v FMJ, etc., projectile length, and this is up to you to assess and, if castings are involved, is a bit dependent upon your molds, your alloy, and the mold size specs, etc..

Rifle, you also have to consider neck sizing which might only come up in pistol in something like the .357 sig but generally not for straight walled pistol brass.

Rule of thumb from my experience is to start with the ammo OAL spec and reduce slightly if you have trouble chambering the round cleanly.

One thing I can tell you that I DO NOT like is how many reloading rig instructions tell you to take a piece of factory ammo to set up your dies for OAL depth.

Spend the $20 on a pair of calipers and know the ammo spec OAL and measure that instead of eye-balling it off a piece of factory ammo.

But I do admit to a bit of bias here..... been years since any factory ammo has been had in my house........

March 28, 2019, 08:36 AM	#1
Targa Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Posts: 2,084	OAL ? Hi all, I am curious what you consider to be an acceptable deviation in OAL for your reloads. I am loading 240 grain JHP 44mag and my Lyman manual has OAL at 1.61”. When I seat the bullet I am at the 1.61” but after a heavy factory crimp I am at 1.72”. My thought is to seat the bullet deeper to compensate the deviation after the crimp.

March 28, 2019, 01:37 PM	#4
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	SAAMI max OAL for .44 Mag is 1.610" measured from the pointy bit of the bullet(even if the pointy bit is flat) to the flat bit of the case with no ogives involved. Minimum OAL is 1.535". ALL North American made firearms chambered in .44 Mag adhere to those numbers. Does the loaded round stick out of the cylinders? If not, you're OK at the 1.72". However, whatever you're doing with that "heavy crimp" is not right. The bullet should not move to lengthen the OAL when crimping. A crimp should be just enough to hold the bullet in place under recoil too. I'd lighten up on the crimp. Unless you're loading very hot. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

March 28, 2019, 02:08 PM	#6
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	You should not be gaining 0.110" by crimping. Somethings wrong there. If it were merely a COAL deviation, we'd be talking about 0.010" to 0.030" being okay, due to bullet variation - depending upon the cartridge and reloader. But smashing the bullet with a FCD for another 0.110" is not 'deviation', it's unintended modification. As for 1.72" COAL... That may or may not work, depending upon what you're shooting it in. Cylinder length varies by brand and model, ranging from 1.700" to 1.8+". For example: It would work in my S&W 29; but would lock up the cylinder of my Super Blackhawk, when the first round came around and hit the forcing cone. The same is true for some rifles. Some of the .44 Mag carbines on the market are very picky about COAL. Get too long, and they start having problems. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

March 28, 2019, 03:29 PM	#8
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Something is definitely wrong. I would seat in one step and crimp in another (get a separate die, I have) and see what occurs. That seat and crimp thing is possible but its way too fiddly. Yea it saves a die at a cost of time and difficult to change. Its not that it grows (though that can be a bad thing) its that it doing git at all. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

March 29, 2019, 07:11 AM	#12
Targa Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Posts: 2,084	Over crimping must have been the issue, backed the crimp off and I am now at 1.63. Also thank you all again, it’s nice to be challenged to rethink my inks so to speak... Last edited by Targa; March 29, 2019 at 06:42 PM.

March 28, 2019, 01:02 PM	#2
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	OAL is an approximation. Depending on the bullet profile/ogive, that length may change a bit. If your gun allows the loaded round to chamber and the cylinder rotates that's all you need to be good to go. If the bullet has a cannelure, just crimp into it and let the chips fall where they may.

March 28, 2019, 01:33 PM	#3
Targa Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Posts: 2,084	Thank you. I crimped at the cannelure, i’ll stick with that then and call it good.

March 28, 2019, 01:48 PM	#5
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,457	I agree that you should be good crimping in the cannelure, but I'm not sure how you would get another 0.1" COL by crimping. FWIW, my 240 JHP loads are Hornady XTP at 1.588 and Nosler JHP at 1.566, both with a firm crimp. I also load some Cast Performance 320s that go 1.707 crimped in the groove.

March 28, 2019, 03:27 PM	#7
Targa Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Posts: 2,084	Im using H110, I will lighten up on the crimp a bit and see if that brings me within a acceptable range. Thank you all, for the input, I am starting out in reloading and the help is appreciated.

March 28, 2019, 03:31 PM	#9
Targa Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Posts: 2,084	I am crimping separately with a Lee FCD. I will definitely back it off a bit and take another look at it.

March 28, 2019, 04:16 PM	#10
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	A good enough crimp to hold the bullet with any load really doesn't have to be crimped so hard that it's obvious to any "untrained" eye. Just about any crimp at all will hold the bullet even under full power H110/W296 loads. Forty-five plus years ago when I started reloading I started out over crimping because it wasn't all the obvious to me that the crimp was adequate. It really takes very little to hang on to the bullet while shooting a cylinder full of max loads. You can feel the crimp being applied as you set the die up. It doesn't take all that much to get enough.

March 28, 2019, 06:46 PM	#11
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	While i can not know exactly what is going on, revolver LFC can produce 2 styles of crimps in revolver. It can just crimp into the cannelure, or if turned down far enough can produce a roll crimp with the leading edge pressed parallel to the bullet. A Redding profile crimp can do essentially the same thing. If adjusting the die for the hard crimp, it may be adjusting the col slightly based on the col and the cannelure location.

March 30, 2019, 09:34 AM	#13
lordmorgul Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2016 Posts: 206	Sounds to me like you need to Raise your crimp die itself in the press and then adjust down the crimp adjuster to compensate. Andrew - Lancaster, CA NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders!

March 30, 2019, 02:31 PM	#14
Targa Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Posts: 2,084	I just started from scratch per Lee’s recommended settings for each die to include the crimp. I was way off on one or all of the dies adjustments, now I am at 1.59-1.60”. Thank you all for your help.

March 30, 2019, 02:49 PM	#15
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Yea, Lee's instructions for FCDs are terrible. In response to a heated discussion about the FCDs 6-8 years ago, I dusted off my .270 Win FCD and used it exactly according to Lee's instructions. The result was smashed bullets, varying COAL, and substantially diminished performance down-range (notably increased group size, and jackets tearing where they had been squished, when impacting clay for expansion testing). FCDs can be useful tools, and have their place for some cartridge and bullet combinations. But Lee's default adjustments are a step away from quality ammunition, rather than a step forward. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

March 31, 2019, 03:22 PM	#16
Grey_Lion Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2018 Location: Baton Rouge - Louisiana Posts: 407	There is the recommended OAL from the ammo design specs and this is usually mirrored by factory ammo. https://www.google.com/search?q=9mm+...WpF4kmnjJGgvM: Then there is what your weapons will tolerate which will differ slightly from design specs on occasion. Then there is what your loads dictate based upon the projectile - i.e. cast v powder coated v swaged v FMJ, etc., projectile length, and this is up to you to assess and, if castings are involved, is a bit dependent upon your molds, your alloy, and the mold size specs, etc.. Rifle, you also have to consider neck sizing which might only come up in pistol in something like the .357 sig but generally not for straight walled pistol brass. Rule of thumb from my experience is to start with the ammo OAL spec and reduce slightly if you have trouble chambering the round cleanly. One thing I can tell you that I DO NOT like is how many reloading rig instructions tell you to take a piece of factory ammo to set up your dies for OAL depth. Spend the $20 on a pair of calipers and know the ammo spec OAL and measure that instead of eye-balling it off a piece of factory ammo. But I do admit to a bit of bias here..... been years since any factory ammo has been had in my house........