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Old March 28, 2019, 07:28 PM   #51
kilotanker22
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Here is the best photo I could get with my phone's camera. It's difficult to see, but you can see what I am talking about. Just ahead of the datum. Almost Identical on all 20 of the cases I fired last. (8th firing)

Here in a few I will measure these cases and size them and let you all know if maybe my last measurement was not accurate.
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Old March 28, 2019, 08:13 PM   #52
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My guess would be that it's not the shoulder position that is making it hard to chamber until you've set the shoulder back .005 . It may be the diameter of the case body needs to be sized down more and that's what is hanging up in your chamber . If you have the tight chamber as mentioned . You may do better with a small base die which will size down the body of the case and web area more then a standard die .

If 44 is loading for 30 firearms , that's why he never splits case necks . Back when I only had one target rifle it was not unusual to have 10+ loads on a single lot/count of cases . Now that I have many more rifles and don't mix brass from rifle to rifle . I barely have 3 loadings on any one lot of cases and don't anneal as much as I used to . I'm not shooting the same lots as much because I'm not shooting the same rifles as much . I'll take this rifle this time and that rifle next time etc etc . So I'm just not working any one lot of brass all that much anymore .
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Old March 28, 2019, 09:04 PM   #53
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I just sat down and took more accurate measurements. I measured the diameter of the datum, the area just ahead of the head and the diameter of the case body in a couple locations. As well as the Cartridge base to Datum. Then set the die to set the shoulder back .002. After setting the shoulder back .002. The Case length and the Shoulder position was the only measurement that had changed. In fact, I also feel very little resistance when the ram pushes the case into the die, until the neck starts to size.

To set the shoulder back by .002, The die was screwed down to flush with the shell holder then advanced the die 1/16 of a turn. Again, the only dimensions that showed any change at all were the case length increased by .001. The shoulder position set back .002. And the neck was sized obviously.

Metal God, You may be right in that What I actually need is a small base die. I added another 1//16 advancement of the die. The shoulder was set back another .002 to be .004. And the area ahead of the case head reduced in diameter by .0015. And it then chambered as it should with only slight resistance. I also measured Some loaded ammunition I still have. And the shoulder position was set back .005. Also that area of the case body in front of the case head was reduced in diameter by another .001. And the cases then slide right into the chamber.
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Old March 28, 2019, 09:29 PM   #54
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Here are the measurements for a fired case before sizing. The Cartridge base to Datum was measured with the Hornady Head-space Comparator. The rest of the Measurements were also taken with the same Lyman Caliper. I am using the term Datum to refer to the shoulder location. Although The Hornady tool does not measure off of the datum. It measures just in front of the Datum.

Neck diameter= .310 Neck wall thickness= .011
Base Diameter= .554
Shoulder diameter= .538
Cartridge base to Datum= 1.746
Rim diameter= .534
Rim Thickness= .053
Case length= 2.095

The SAAMI Specs that I was able to find are as follows. Although I assume the SAAMI specs are for a sized case? It would seem to me that These measurements confirm (to me at least) That I indeed have a chamber on the tighter side...

Bullet diameter .277 in (7.0 mm)
Neck diameter .3140 in (7.98 mm)
Shoulder diameter .5381 in (13.67 mm)
Base diameter .5550 in (14.10 mm)
Rim diameter .535 in (13.6 mm)
Rim thickness .054 in (1.4 mm)
Case length 2.100 in (53.3 mm)
Overall length 2.860 in (72.6 mm)
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Old March 28, 2019, 11:49 PM   #55
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I am using the term Datum to refer to the shoulder location. Although The Hornady tool does not measure off of the datum. It measures just in front of the Datum.
No explanation needed , not sure how many members are here at the firing line or even guest the look at this website . There's only one person that takes issue with reloading or firearm words when used in a way they weren't originally intended 100+ years ago and makes a stink about it . The rest of the world knows what you mean and except it .
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Old March 29, 2019, 01:35 AM   #56
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"Hard to know what you know or don't, you provide no support that sizing and shooting will work harden the neck and shoulder back to its original.

The experts in this area say you can't. Good enough for me."

Why the heck do you think you anneal case necks? BECAUSE THEY WORK HARDEN!
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Old March 29, 2019, 06:56 AM   #57
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If my buddy didn't own one of those fancy machines to annealing brass, I'd look at a Salt Bath Annealing set up. My buddy only charged me a 12 pack to anneal 6,000 + pieces of .223.
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Old March 29, 2019, 09:26 AM   #58
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There's only one person that takes issue with reloading or firearm words when used in a way they weren't originally intended 100+ years ago and makes a stink about it . The rest of the world knows what you mean and except it .
I am not the fan of calling it anything a member chooses to call 'it'. I understand most reloaders have trouble keeping up because they start out in a dead run because there is no book on basic reloading. Reloaders for some reason decided to call the Wilson case gage a 'drop in gage'. To get in on the beginning of the Wilson case gage the reloader started out 75 years behind; not my problem.

The Digital Head space gage had reloaders scramping for the gage and falling all over each other while singing praise for the tool. Not me, the digital head space gage was not a head space gage, it was a comparator and tool manufacturers called the tool a dial indicator stand. And then the maker of the tool declared he invented the three legged milkstool. And I thought to myself and Uncklenick found humor in it. Is it possible reloaders do not know why the 3 legged stool, table or chair was necessary?

And now we are back to the Hornady comparator; I suggested Hornady take lessons from Wilson when it comes to verifying their tools. The Wilson case gage had a radius, it is a datum based tool and is accurate for case length, chamber length from the datum to the case head for minimum length/full length sized cases and for cases that are go-gage length and for everything shorter and or longer if the reloaders understands datums.

I use a feeler a straight edge and or a flat surface, to get within .001" I use the feeler gage. In the beginning Wilson suggested the pocket rule be used for the straight edge. I added the feeler gage and later I added the dial indicator.
I am using the term Datum to refer to the shoulder location. Although The

Quote:
Hornady tool does not measure off of the datum. It measures just in front of the Datum.
When reloaders were wondering why the Hornady tool did not match SAAMI specs I said it is impossible for the Hornady tool to be accurate because they use a radius on their datum. I suggested reloaders learn to verify; most if any did not understand the effect the radius had on 'measuring from 'THE DATUM'

I said 'THE DATUM' because the datum had a sharp edge, the radius moves the datum to give the reloader a datum, I do not expect many reloaders to understand the Hornady datum with the radius is a datum, but it is not 'THE DATUM'.

If reloaders had the ability to verify a tool they would not make up small/short terms to explain something that does not make sense.

And I am still waiting for someone to explain how it is possible to move/bump a shoulder back with a die that has full body support.

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Old March 29, 2019, 09:27 AM   #59
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Kilotanker22, can you double check the thickness at the neck, (check it in 2 or three places) and the neck diameter. I'm assuming this is a fired case that has not been resized, is that correct?

Normal neck brass thickness on a new case that has not been turned is usually around .015. Bullet diameter of a 270 is typically .276 not .277 like the box say's. Measure a few bullets and verify that but that's what I have with several different styles and brands that I have in stock.

I think you can see a problem if typical spring back is .001 and your neck thickness is .011 then .011+.011+.276 = .298 and your neck is expanding to .310 (if your measurements are correct). If all was normal, you would be seeing .015+.015+.276 = .306 with zero neck tension. A properly sized case would be with a neck diameter of .304 so you have .002 neck tension after seating.

If your numbers are correct then I think we've found out why your necks are becoming work hardened so quickly.

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Old March 29, 2019, 09:48 AM   #60
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306 with zero neck tension and .304 with a normal .002 neck tension.
If I had a hammer; I do, I do have a hammer. I have one hammer with two claws. I am going to sell that one; I was thinking $125 would be a good price.

And then there is tension, If I had a tension gage and it measured tensions in some kind of unit like 5, or 15, I would be happy with 40 tensions but there is a problem with my tension gages, all of them measure in pounds and or deflections as in thousandths. And all of the tensioners on the Internet will not provide a conversion for tension to pounds. SO? I use bullet hold, I can measure bullet hold in pounds when pulling and pushing.

It reminds me of the old saying about it is possible for thousands of people to be around something all their like and know nothing about it.

The outside diameter of the 270 case is a horse shoe and or hand grenade fit with the inside diameter of the 30/06 case. Make sure you cover the primer pocket/flash hole to prevent that whoosh sound. I like that pop sound when the cases are pulled apart.

At the firing range, after firing a 270 cases I check the neck to see of it expanded, if the 270 case neck slides into the sized 30/06 case neck the neck did not expand.

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Old March 29, 2019, 01:04 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by LineStretcher View Post
Kilotanker22, can you double check the thickness at the neck, (check it in 2 or three places) and the neck diameter. I'm assuming this is a fired case that has not been resized, is that correct?

Normal neck brass thickness on a new case that has not been turned is usually around .015. Bullet diameter of a 270 is typically .276 not .277 like the box say's. Measure a few bullets and verify that but that's what I have with several different styles and brands that I have in stock.

I think you can see a problem if typical spring back is .001 and your neck thickness is .011 then .011+.011+.276 = .298 and your neck is expanding to .310 (if your measurements are correct). If all was normal, you would be seeing .015+.015+.276 = .306 with zero neck tension. A properly sized case would be with a neck diameter of .304 so you have .002 neck tension after seating.

If your numbers are correct then I think we've found out why your necks are becoming work hardened so quickly.
Yes these measurements are from a fired case. Diameter of neck after sizing on the same case was .303. The neck thickness was checked in several spots. it ranged from .011-.0115 I was surprised to see them so consistent. The Sierra Bullet I am using do indeed measure .277.

These are not new cases. They have been fired 8 times.
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Old March 29, 2019, 02:23 PM   #62
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OK. Your bullets are .277 and your neck thickness is .011. After sizing your neck diameter is .303. So .011+.011 =.022. .303-.022 = .281 which by your measurements is the inside diameter of your case neck. A bullet with a diameter of .277 would fall straight through? Somethings wrong because obviously you're not having that issue. At least I don't think so.
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Old March 29, 2019, 03:12 PM   #63
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OK. Your bullets are .277 and your neck thickness is .011. After sizing your neck diameter is .303. So .011+.011 =.022. .303-.022 = .281 which by your measurements is the inside diameter of your case neck. A bullet with a diameter of .277 would fall straight through? Somethings wrong because obviously you're not having that issue. At least I don't think so.
Over and over and over I keep saying there has to be something reloaders do not understand about reloading and then there are the tensioners

First? The case gets sized, my cases get sized when I raise the ram, and then there is one of those 'and then moments'. After the ram goes up the ram is lowered. When I lower the ram the sizing plug is pulled through the neck, pulling the sizer plug through the neck expands the neck

Pulling the sizer ball through the neck determines how much bullet hold I am going to get. I am the fan of 'all the bullet hold I can get'. Tensioners? You will have to ask a tensioner.

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Old March 29, 2019, 05:34 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by LineStretcher View Post
OK. Your bullets are .277 and your neck thickness is .011. After sizing your neck diameter is .303. So .011+.011 =.022. .303-.022 = .281 which by your measurements is the inside diameter of your case neck. A bullet with a diameter of .277 would fall straight through? Somethings wrong because obviously you're not having that issue. At least I don't think so.
I will measure again. Its possible I wrote down the wrong number. ALso possible that I did not measure the neck thickness deep enough into the neck. (Maybe My caliper jaw rested where I had chamfered the case.) Dont know for sure. I will measure all again. That was the last measurement I took so I guess it's also possible that the caliper was out of zero... I will also check my notes and see if I actually wrote the wrong number. I am work right now
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Old March 29, 2019, 06:13 PM   #65
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I am the fan of measuring before and again after if what line stretcher says is true you do not have bullet hold meaning your bullets will be sliding back and forth.

Your neck must have an interference fit or crush with the bullet meaning the neck will expand when the bullet is seated. And then there is this going on and on etc. as though they have to tell you everything they know in a short time.

Measure the outside diameter of the neck before seating first, seat the bullet and then measure again. The case neck should increase in diameter.

After that I expect them to start making stuff up' before you get confused think about what happens to the neck when it increases in diameter. Reloaders believe the neck gets thicker and or thinner.

There are some very big thinkers in reloading that can make a case for the neck getting longer or shorter when it is necked down and or up.

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Old March 29, 2019, 09:02 PM   #66
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Took the same measurements tonight. Got the same numbers as before, but my caliper shut off on me. I replaced the battery and these are the numbers I got. These here are from a sized case.

Outside neck diameter is .300
Inside neck diameter is .274
Bullet Diameter is .277
Loaded neck diameter is .303
Neck wall thickness is .013

The same fired case before sizing was.
Outside neck diameter is .306
Inside neck diameter is .279
Neck wall thickness is .013

Cartridge base to shoulder after firing is 1.744
After sizing is 1.740

It seems to me that my weak battery was throwing my measurements out a bit. These numbers Jive a whole lot better than before.
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Old March 29, 2019, 09:32 PM   #67
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I wonder if that means you don’t need a small base die but needing to bump the shoulder back .004+ would still indicate to me the body is the issue
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Old March 29, 2019, 11:21 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by kilotanker22 View Post
Took the same measurements tonight. Got the same numbers as before, but my caliper shut off on me. I replaced the battery and these are the numbers I got. These here are from a sized case.

Outside neck diameter is .300
Inside neck diameter is .274
Bullet Diameter is .277
Loaded neck diameter is .303
Neck wall thickness is .013

The same fired case before sizing was.
Outside neck diameter is .306
Inside neck diameter is .279
Neck wall thickness is .013

Cartridge base to shoulder after firing is 1.744
After sizing is 1.740

It seems to me that my weak battery was throwing my measurements out a bit. These numbers Jive a whole lot better than before.
OK, that's more like it.. Neck tension is a little more than I like but it's normal for a standard die.

At this point you can eliminate the chamber from being abnormal. All your seeing is the normal work hardening of the WSM family of cartridges.

You can anneal as often as you want, it will not hurt your brass in any way but just because you anneal does not mean you return the brass to it's factory original condition. You still need to pay attention to the condition of the cases and watch for the warning signs of fatigue and stress. That's just normal reloading 101.
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Old March 29, 2019, 11:40 PM   #69
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I have time. I will buy a machine this summer to anneal with. For now I will just buy more brass. I guess having another 100 cases couldn't hurt. I won't be shooting this one a whole lot for a bit. I have several other rifles I am developing loads for so. This one can sit back awhile. (Probably until Hunting season).

The Winchester 6.5 cases that I have I think I may just toss them. I will probably buy a bulk pack of Hornady cases to load for my target/tactical rig.

And use the 100 once fired cases I have of RP brass for my 6.5 Creedmoor hunting rifle.
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Old March 30, 2019, 09:57 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by kilotanker22 View Post
I have time. I will buy a machine this summer to anneal with. For now I will just buy more brass. I guess having another 100 cases couldn't hurt. I won't be shooting this one a whole lot for a bit. I have several other rifles I am developing loads for so. This one can sit back awhile. (Probably until Hunting season).

The Winchester 6.5 cases that I have I think I may just toss them. I will probably buy a bulk pack of Hornady cases to load for my target/tactical rig.

And use the 100 once fired cases I have of RP brass for my 6.5 Creedmoor hunting rifle.
Sounds like a plan. That's what I have done with my 270 WSM. Mine is a hunting rifle also and just like you, it drove me nuts and I went a little to the dark side trying to figure out what was going on. Once I did, it dawned on me that I would probably never shoot more than 20 rounds a year so I got some new brass, worked up loads for Mule Deer and Elk and then called it good.

On your 6.5 C that's a different story. It's a great bench rest caliber and a lot of fun to just shoot whenever you can. My favorite brass for the 6.5 C is the Lapua small rifle primer brass. It's not cheep but lasts for a long time.
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Old March 30, 2019, 12:03 PM   #71
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I have considered Lapua brass. My intention is to use different brands of brass for the hunting rifle and the target/tactical rifle.

Pretty sure I am gonna stick with the 130 grain game changer for the hunting rifle bullet. And either the ELDX or the 142 Sierra Matchking for the Target tactical rifle.

If I don't buy a machine to anneal with. I will b setting up a salt bath system. Seems easy enough and the salt is water soluble. So easy to clean
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Old March 30, 2019, 08:41 PM   #72
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well for whatever it is worth here is my story.

I annealed after every firing for two years using an Annealeeze. About 8 months ago I stopped annealing. I started with 200 new Lapua .260 Rem cases and 200 Alpha munitions 6CM cases. The highest firing so far is on 75 of the .260 Rem cases which are on their 7th reloading with no anneals. I have been running my loads on various nodes sometimes on the highest node. At this point I have seen no adverse effects on accuracy or case life

Also just my opinion but if I pay $1.00 or so per case and can get 5 to 10 reloads out of it it has cost me at most 20 cents per firing. My cheapest bullet costs more than that. Buy quality brass if you can recover it easily but if not no biggie. I used to use Hornady bulk in a .204 Ruger that I ran at almost 4000 FPS and could get 5 reloads from it with no anneal
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Old March 31, 2019, 11:10 AM   #73
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I was getting very hard to insert bullets into cases at about 8th firing and neck splits.

I am not sure the annealer and ROI is, but its a one time fixed cost. I shoot 5,000 round or better a year.

Maybe its just the pain of the Anneler cost once vs buying brass all the time.

Its nice to have choices so you can suit what work for you.
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Old March 31, 2019, 11:27 AM   #74
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I shoot 5,000 round or better a year
as do I, I replaced two barrels last year and will probably do the same this year.Part of the cost for me is spending $200 for 200 new brass. When the barrel gets replaced so does the brass, I look at it as a consumable just like primers and bullets.

So far when I trash a case it has been due to issues with loose primer pockets or it not passing the paperclip test. In 10 years of reloading bottlenecks I have never had a neck split even once, but then I don't use range pickup or once fired brass.

I also trim and chamfer after every firing, doing a slight inside hand chamfer to just break the edge and that might be why my seating pressure seems to be consistent whether seating with a RC or an arbor press an inline dies
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Old March 31, 2019, 12:06 PM   #75
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I also Change every single firing.
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