lets say im at wal mart and some crazy person.....

cajun47 · August 9, 2007, 02:59 PM

whips out a gun and yells at the service desk "give me all the money!"

im standing nearby, i have a ccw and a kel tec pf-9 in my pocket with 7 rounds of powerball +p 9mm.

best thing to do is lay low out of his site but get my pf-9 out of my pocket at the ready?

if i lay low he may kill someone. would i be justified in shooting him before he shoots someone? this is what im not sure of.

i would indeed put 3 quick rounds in his chest if he did start shooting. am i right to shoot him even if he never pointed a gun at me? i would think so.

Redworm · August 9, 2007, 03:03 PM

And if it's just some stupid kid with an airsoft gun thinking he's being funny?

A gun is your absolute LAST line of defense. You draw when there is an imminent and clear threat to life.

glockman19 · August 9, 2007, 03:04 PM

NO Your only obligation it to protect yourself and those around you. If he shot then I beleive you would be justified as you /I would/could feel your life were in iminent danger.

YOU ARE NOT LEO.

Either way you'd likely be arrested.

and...

Should you miss and he shoots someone else instead of leavein you could be charged in the innocent bystandard's death/injury too.

cajun47 · August 9, 2007, 03:06 PM

roger. i hate to say it but i guess i would have to wait until he shoots someone before i shoot him.

cajun47 · August 9, 2007, 03:10 PM

"Either way you'd likely be arrested."

hmmm. best thing for me is to run and hide in a corner with my gun while other people get slaughtered if i don't want legal trouble. that would be hard to do. what if its another vt type thing. can anyone with a gun just hide while the bad guy murders 30+ people?

JuanCarlos · August 9, 2007, 03:11 PM

Quote:

A gun is your absolute LAST line of defense. You draw when there is an imminent and clear threat to life.

But what qualifies as an imminent danger? I'd say if somebody is pointing a gun at another person that certainly should qualify...since the line between "clear threat" to life and "dead person" is less than a second wide.

But yes, you run both the risk that the gun isn't real, or the deaths of others due to your escalation and/or missing and hitting a bystander. Both might expose you to both criminal and civil liability, and lots of it. But I'm no lawyer.

Since there's a fair probability that he'll simply take the money and leave, I'd say that the wisest decision, from both a tactical and legal standpoint, is to get your firearm ready (out of sight) and wait. If he shoots, you're up. I'd say if he tries to take anybody with him, you're up (morally...legally, probably not). Aside from that, your firing risks doing much more harm than good.

wingman · August 9, 2007, 03:12 PM

Right or wrong if you pop a cap on anyone have lots of money and a good lawyer.

JuanCarlos · August 9, 2007, 03:14 PM

Quote:

hmmm. best thing for me is to run and hide in a corner with my gun while other people get slaughtered if i don't want legal trouble. that would be hard to do. what if its another vt type thing. can anyone with a gun just hide while the bad guy murders 30+ people?

No, as soon as he starts actually shooting people you'd probably be in the clear. And yes, somebody with a gun can justify "hiding" before the criminal fires the first shot, since firing on him is just as likely to cause death (and possibly more of them) to bystanders.

But yeah, if he hasn't fired first you're likely to be arrested. You may be cleared afterwards, but probably still arrested. Even if we're talking about a 30+ massacre, and you finally take the shooter down, you're likely to be detained. It's just the way it works. Pretty much any time you shoot somebody, justified or no, expect to have a run-in with the law...it's just the outcome that varies.

Derius_T · August 9, 2007, 03:41 PM

As much as it would kill you to stand there and watch, you kinda have to. You ARE NOT A LEO, or a vigilante, (as they will label you if you shoot the guy) I know you, as a decent law-abiding citezen, want to STOP anyone from being hurt, but you could actually CAUSE people to be hurt by opening fire. I mean I know we are all perfect sniper shots, that could accurately hit multiple asprins thrown in the air, in different directions, in a rainstorm, from the hip...blindfolded....but just what if you miss, and he turns to face the treat, (you) and blows away the poor cashier cowering next to you?

Just things to think about. Now if it were a family member or self in danger, or if he opened fire on people, I would shoot, and consequences be damned.

JuanCarlos · August 9, 2007, 03:44 PM

Quote:

As much as it would kill you to stand there and watch, you kinda have to. You ARE NOT A LEO, or a vigilante, (as they will label you if you shoot the guy) I know you, as a decent law-abiding citezen, want to STOP anyone from being hurt, but you could actually CAUSE people to be hurt by opening fire. I mean I know we are all perfect sniper shots, that could accurately hit multiple asprins thrown in the air, in different directions, in a rainstorm, from the hip...blindfolded....but just what if you miss, and he turns to face the treat, (you) and blows away the poor cashier cowering next to you?

I usually only run about 50% accuracy under those conditions...but I'm working on it!

Quote:

Just things to think about. Now if it were a family member or self in danger, or if he opened fire on people, I would shoot, and consequences be damned.

If he opened fire on people, I can't imagine you'd run into much legal hassle, provided you were carrying legally. But again, I'm no lawyer.

Fremmer · August 9, 2007, 03:47 PM

On behalf of the other employees and shoppers inside.....

Let the service rep give him the money so that he can just leave. We'd prefer not to have bullets whizzing around the store while you two have a shootout. We'd prefer not to have the kids in that store see someone shot to death. We'd prefer not to have him take one of us hostage.

Let him take the money and leave. JMHO, I'm no expert.

And start shopping at Target!

(get it....Target....ah, nobody understands my humor.)

cajun47 · August 9, 2007, 03:52 PM

i wish they had a target and academy sports nearby trust me.

JuanCarlos · August 9, 2007, 03:54 PM

Quote:

And start shopping at Target!

Ba-dum crash...

And yeah, there's a reason that nearly every store has a "just give them the money and let them go" policy. While it sucks having somebody point a gun at your employees, and it sucks having him be rewarded for it, it's actually the course of action least likely to lead to anybody actually getting hurt. Get him on camera, hope the cops catch him later...no mopping up blood (including possible bystanders), no patching bulletholes in the store.

Fremmer · August 9, 2007, 03:55 PM

Let me clarify my last post, lest I come off as a jerk....

I do respect your courage to want to help others. You have to decide what to do, nobody else can do that. If the guy points the gun at you, or shoots someone, or discharges his weapon, you have to do what you have to do.

Just do it very carefully, that's all. Sorry about the tone of my last post, Cajun.

Redworm · August 9, 2007, 03:58 PM

And always remember that regardless of the outcome, regardless of the justification and regardless of what others like us believe you may still have to prove to a jury that your shooting was justified.

1064chubbs · August 9, 2007, 06:35 PM

About a month ago an off duty LEO pulled out a gun in a road rage incident to scare the other driver and it just happened that the other driver had a ccw permit and a handgun so he shot the OD LEO and was detained for a few hours but was let go. Fortunately the LEO was only injured and not killed in the shooting. Ill see if I can find the article.

12-34hom · August 9, 2007, 06:52 PM

Check the criminal code in the state you reside for the use of justifiable use of deadly force.

Where i reside, [Iowa] deadly force can be utilized if you witness a forcible felony in progress. Witnessing a shooting; would be justified at that point [where i live] to apply deadly force. Your state code may differ.

Carrying CCW - it is your responsibility to know the law concering a situation such as this.

Be a good witness - if possible - without endangering your life or others.

12-34hom

Bruxley · August 9, 2007, 07:01 PM

I have to agree with JC here. I would add a cell call and being a very good witness. Not just clothes but look for PERSONAL features. Details like ear rings, finger rings, scars, etc.

And watch their eyes if you think they may decide witnesses are unacceptable. The look of a person about to fire is unmistakable and hard to describe past 'cold' or somber with focus. Drop em' as soon as you see that. You have a hell of a time for a while after that but you be alive to bear it.

Pat H · August 9, 2007, 08:23 PM

Quote:

whips out a gun and yells at the service desk "give me all the money!"

im standing nearby, i have a ccw and a kel tec pf-9 in my pocket with 7 rounds of powerball +p 9mm.

best thing to do is lay low out of his site but get my pf-9 out of my pocket at the ready?

if i lay low he may kill someone. would i be justified in shooting him before he shoots someone? this is what im not sure of.

i would indeed put 3 quick rounds in his chest if he did start shooting. am i right to shoot him even if he never pointed a gun at me? i would think so.

Lawfully, in the state where I live, you can simply shoot the person, though it's called using force to stop a violent crime. Any crime in which the perpetrator has a potentially deadly weapon in his control and is threatening its use constitutes a deadly crime in progress. The weapon in his possession doesn't have to be functional, it does not have to be a gun.

Now, whether you should act or not is something only you can decide based on the precise circumstances at the time.

The thing is, you pretty much need to decide now, deciding whether you should act or not when things are going wrong is a bad time for that.

An anectdote: The father (age 70+) of a friend of my brothers was robbed at knife point in Wal-mart between 9 and 10 in the morning. It happened near the rear of the store, almost no customers in the location, and no one noticed. He was not armed. Luckily, he wasn't harmed either.

Al Norris · August 9, 2007, 10:25 PM

"What If" scenarios do not belong in L&P.

Off to Tactics and Training.

WhiteFeather93 · August 9, 2007, 10:50 PM

Here is what the PA State law has to say on matter.

§ 506. Use of force for the protection of other persons.
(a) General rule.--The use of force upon or toward the
person of another is justifiable to protect a third person when:
(1) the actor would be justified under section 505 of
this title (relating to use of force in self-protection) in
using such force to protect himself against the injury he
believes to be threatened to the person whom he seeks to
protect;
(2) under the circumstances as the actor believes them
to be, the person whom he seeks to protect would be justified
in using such protective force; and
(3) the actor believes that his intervention is
necessary for the protection of such other person.
(b) Exceptions.--Notwithstanding subsection (a) of this
section:
(1) When the actor would be obliged under section 505 of
this title to retreat, to surrender the possession of a thing
or to comply with a demand before using force in self-
protection, he is not obliged to do so before using force for
the protection of another person, unless he knows that he can
thereby secure the complete safety of such other person.
(2) When the person whom the actor seeks to protect
would be obliged under section 505 of this title to retreat,
to surrender the possession of a thing or to comply with a
demand if he knew that he could obtain complete safety by so
doing, the actor is obliged to try to cause him to do so
before using force in his protection if the actor knows that
he can obtain complete safety in that way.
(3) Neither the actor nor the person whom he seeks to
protect is obliged to retreat when in the dwelling or place
of work of the other to any greater extent than in his own.

So if you break this down a little bit. You are by law allowed to act to save of life as if you were that life. In other words if someone pointed a gun at you could you draw and fire back? Could you retreat? I don't know what state you live in but I can tell you that every state now has consolidated online statues. So take a look but according to law you are justified in PA.

It took me maybe 30 seconds to look this up. So when asking a question based on what the state law says try that first. If you are looking for opinions than forums are a great place. But remember that on forums there is a lot of information and a lot of less than desirable content.

SLOMountaineer · August 9, 2007, 10:54 PM

What a bunch of bogus advice this guy is getting...for the most part. If the dude whips out a gun and asks the clerk for the money you darn well better shoot him before he starts shooting or what is the point in having your gun with you? Wait until he starts shooting people before you shoot him? Are you people kidding me? Hey, if some guy pulls out a realistic looking fake gun and those around him can't tell its fake shoot him and you would be in the clear legally. Plus, the idiot DESERVES to be shot for pulling a stunt like that. You really want him around contributing to the gene pool? It doesn't matter one iota whether you are an LEO or not. If there is a threat to life whether it is yours or someone elses you have every right to cap the guy.

Geez! What is everybody so timid for these days?

P.S. I have been an LEO for nearly 19 years.

SLOMountaineer · August 9, 2007, 10:57 PM

the post above mine is pretty good. I must have been typing my tirade when he posted.

Rogueone · August 9, 2007, 11:25 PM

it is a compelling question though. I've wondered the same thing.

If you waited, and the perp didn't shoot anyone and left the building, what about following them outside to see if you might be able to hold them for the police? bad thinking due to lack of cover and still more customers likely roaming around I guess?

I'd really hate to have to let a criminal leave knowing I could stop him, but I would be very concerned about where I was positioned, would my screaming freeze cause more problems, etc. This type of scenario is actually one of the "reasonings" that persuaded me to start carrying, along with the VT shootings and that ex military old man in Detroit about a week or two later who got pummeled trying to get in his car and a group of kids were in the next parking spot watching and doing nothing. That one drove me nuts. I presume in that case, there was no way to know the old man wasn't going to be killed, considering how hard he was being hit upside the head by the door, and I probably would have shot in that case, gotten as close as I reasonably could if time was available and dropped the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]. That disgusted me more than most other incidents.

XD Gunner · August 9, 2007, 11:39 PM

Quote:

What a bunch of bogus advice this guy is getting...for the most part. If the dude whips out a gun and asks the clerk for the money you darn well better shoot him before he starts shooting or what is the point in having your gun with you? Wait until he starts shooting people before you shoot him? Are you people kidding me? Hey, if some guy pulls out a realistic looking fake gun and those around him can't tell its fake shoot him and you would be in the clear legally. It doesn't matter one iota whether you are an LEO or not. If there is a threat to life whether it is yours or someone elses you have every right to cap the guy.

Geez! What is everybody so timid for these days?

P.S. I have been an LEO for nearly 19 years.

Actually in the state of KY, your advice could get someone sent to jail for a long, long time.

You are NOT clear at ALL LEGALLY if you shoot someone, that appears to be holding up a cashier, but has a fake gun. If he has a fake gun that looks real, guess what, that's manslaughter. In KY it is VERY clear, that if you act to save another's life, then the scenario MUST be exactly as it appears. If its not, if say, it turned out that he was joking, or that it was a fake gun, or that anything other than what it appeared to be exactly, what if its some 17 yr/old with a BB Gun that is just trying to impress his friends? You can get into some deep crap. The advice given above was pretty spot on. Since no ones life is in eminent danger, you shooting him only ends up with you being the bad guy. Give him what he wants, live to fight another day. Again, we are CCDW Card holders, not LEO's. He's presumably not just threatening lives, he's wanting money. Money never equals the right to take another's life, regardless of what end your on.

When something goes down and your DIRECTLY involved, IE, your the victim, its another story entirely. Your basically giving advice, that in certain states, may send a person with good intentions away for a long time.

LEO or not, your information is wrong, at least in my state.

Not too mention all of the various charges bystanders may take up on you, just because you pulled the gun out. Pick your battles wisely, and basically, if it doesn't directly affect YOU or YOUR LOVED ONE, don't get in it. It's hard, but what would you rather do, sit behind bars to look at your wife and kids, or say "It's a good thing I didn't shoot that kid at Wal-Mart?"

August 9, 2007, 02:59 PM	#1
cajun47 Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: swamp people Posts: 539	lets say im at wal mart and some crazy person..... whips out a gun and yells at the service desk "give me all the money!" im standing nearby, i have a ccw and a kel tec pf-9 in my pocket with 7 rounds of powerball +p 9mm. best thing to do is lay low out of his site but get my pf-9 out of my pocket at the ready? if i lay low he may kill someone. would i be justified in shooting him before he shoots someone? this is what im not sure of. i would indeed put 3 quick rounds in his chest if he did start shooting. am i right to shoot him even if he never pointed a gun at me? i would think so.

August 9, 2007, 06:52 PM	#17
12-34hom Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 1999 Location: Iowa - northeastern Posts: 1,810	Check the criminal code in the state you reside for the use of justifiable use of deadly force. Where i reside, [Iowa] deadly force can be utilized if you witness a forcible felony in progress. Witnessing a shooting; would be justified at that point [where i live] to apply deadly force. Your state code may differ. Carrying CCW - it is your responsibility to know the law concering a situation such as this. Be a good witness - if possible - without endangering your life or others. 12-34hom __________________ This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. I must master itas i master my life.Without me my rifle is useless, without my rifle i am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I Will. Before God i swear this creed. My rifle and myself are defenders of my country. We are masters of our enemy. We are saviours of my life. So be it until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen.

August 9, 2007, 07:01 PM	#18
Bruxley Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2007 Posts: 1,462	I have to agree with JC here. I would add a cell call and being a very good witness. Not just clothes but look for PERSONAL features. Details like ear rings, finger rings, scars, etc. And watch their eyes if you think they may decide witnesses are unacceptable. The look of a person about to fire is unmistakable and hard to describe past 'cold' or somber with focus. Drop em' as soon as you see that. You have a hell of a time for a while after that but you be alive to bear it. __________________ If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.

August 9, 2007, 10:50 PM	#21
WhiteFeather93 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2005 Location: Oley Pa Posts: 281	Here is what the PA State law has to say on matter. § 506. Use of force for the protection of other persons. (a) General rule.--The use of force upon or toward the person of another is justifiable to protect a third person when: (1) the actor would be justified under section 505 of this title (relating to use of force in self-protection) in using such force to protect himself against the injury he believes to be threatened to the person whom he seeks to protect; (2) under the circumstances as the actor believes them to be, the person whom he seeks to protect would be justified in using such protective force; and (3) the actor believes that his intervention is necessary for the protection of such other person. (b) Exceptions.--Notwithstanding subsection (a) of this section: (1) When the actor would be obliged under section 505 of this title to retreat, to surrender the possession of a thing or to comply with a demand before using force in self- protection, he is not obliged to do so before using force for the protection of another person, unless he knows that he can thereby secure the complete safety of such other person. (2) When the person whom the actor seeks to protect would be obliged under section 505 of this title to retreat, to surrender the possession of a thing or to comply with a demand if he knew that he could obtain complete safety by so doing, the actor is obliged to try to cause him to do so before using force in his protection if the actor knows that he can obtain complete safety in that way. (3) Neither the actor nor the person whom he seeks to protect is obliged to retreat when in the dwelling or place of work of the other to any greater extent than in his own. So if you break this down a little bit. You are by law allowed to act to save of life as if you were that life. In other words if someone pointed a gun at you could you draw and fire back? Could you retreat? I don't know what state you live in but I can tell you that every state now has consolidated online statues. So take a look but according to law you are justified in PA. It took me maybe 30 seconds to look this up. So when asking a question based on what the state law says try that first. If you are looking for opinions than forums are a great place. But remember that on forums there is a lot of information and a lot of less than desirable content. __________________ "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Freud "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." -Thomas Jefferson.

August 9, 2007, 03:03 PM	#2
Redworm Junior member Join Date: August 10, 2005 Posts: 3,372	And if it's just some stupid kid with an airsoft gun thinking he's being funny? A gun is your absolute LAST line of defense. You draw when there is an imminent and clear threat to life.

August 9, 2007, 03:04 PM	#3
glockman19 Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2007 Posts: 235	NO Your only obligation it to protect yourself and those around you. If he shot then I beleive you would be justified as you /I would/could feel your life were in iminent danger. YOU ARE NOT LEO. Either way you'd likely be arrested. and... Should you miss and he shoots someone else instead of leavein you could be charged in the innocent bystandard's death/injury too.

August 9, 2007, 03:06 PM	#4
cajun47 Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: swamp people Posts: 539	roger. i hate to say it but i guess i would have to wait until he shoots someone before i shoot him.

August 9, 2007, 03:10 PM	#5
cajun47 Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: swamp people Posts: 539	"Either way you'd likely be arrested." hmmm. best thing for me is to run and hide in a corner with my gun while other people get slaughtered if i don't want legal trouble. that would be hard to do. what if its another vt type thing. can anyone with a gun just hide while the bad guy murders 30+ people?

August 9, 2007, 03:12 PM	#7
wingman Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2002 Posts: 2,108	Right or wrong if you pop a cap on anyone have lots of money and a good lawyer.

August 9, 2007, 03:41 PM	#9
Derius_T Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: South West OHIO (boondocks) Posts: 1,337	As much as it would kill you to stand there and watch, you kinda have to. You ARE NOT A LEO, or a vigilante, (as they will label you if you shoot the guy) I know you, as a decent law-abiding citezen, want to STOP anyone from being hurt, but you could actually CAUSE people to be hurt by opening fire. I mean I know we are all perfect sniper shots, that could accurately hit multiple asprins thrown in the air, in different directions, in a rainstorm, from the hip...blindfolded....but just what if you miss, and he turns to face the treat, (you) and blows away the poor cashier cowering next to you? Just things to think about. Now if it were a family member or self in danger, or if he opened fire on people, I would shoot, and consequences be damned.

August 9, 2007, 03:47 PM	#11
Fremmer Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2005 Location: Nebraska Posts: 3,482	On behalf of the other employees and shoppers inside..... Let the service rep give him the money so that he can just leave. We'd prefer not to have bullets whizzing around the store while you two have a shootout. We'd prefer not to have the kids in that store see someone shot to death. We'd prefer not to have him take one of us hostage. Let him take the money and leave. JMHO, I'm no expert. And start shopping at Target! (get it....Target....ah, nobody understands my humor.)

August 9, 2007, 03:52 PM	#12
cajun47 Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: swamp people Posts: 539	i wish they had a target and academy sports nearby trust me.

August 9, 2007, 03:55 PM	#14
Fremmer Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2005 Location: Nebraska Posts: 3,482	Let me clarify my last post, lest I come off as a jerk.... I do respect your courage to want to help others. You have to decide what to do, nobody else can do that. If the guy points the gun at you, or shoots someone, or discharges his weapon, you have to do what you have to do. Just do it very carefully, that's all. Sorry about the tone of my last post, Cajun.

August 9, 2007, 03:58 PM	#15
Redworm Junior member Join Date: August 10, 2005 Posts: 3,372	And always remember that regardless of the outcome, regardless of the justification and regardless of what others like us believe you may still have to prove to a jury that your shooting was justified.

August 9, 2007, 06:35 PM	#16
1064chubbs Member Join Date: July 19, 2007 Posts: 16	About a month ago an off duty LEO pulled out a gun in a road rage incident to scare the other driver and it just happened that the other driver had a ccw permit and a handgun so he shot the OD LEO and was detained for a few hours but was let go. Fortunately the LEO was only injured and not killed in the shooting. Ill see if I can find the article.

August 9, 2007, 10:25 PM	#20
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	"What If" scenarios do not belong in L&P. Off to Tactics and Training.

August 9, 2007, 10:54 PM	#22
SLOMountaineer Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2006 Posts: 238	What a bunch of bogus advice this guy is getting...for the most part. If the dude whips out a gun and asks the clerk for the money you darn well better shoot him before he starts shooting or what is the point in having your gun with you? Wait until he starts shooting people before you shoot him? Are you people kidding me? Hey, if some guy pulls out a realistic looking fake gun and those around him can't tell its fake shoot him and you would be in the clear legally. Plus, the idiot DESERVES to be shot for pulling a stunt like that. You really want him around contributing to the gene pool? It doesn't matter one iota whether you are an LEO or not. If there is a threat to life whether it is yours or someone elses you have every right to cap the guy. Geez! What is everybody so timid for these days? P.S. I have been an LEO for nearly 19 years.

August 9, 2007, 10:57 PM	#23
SLOMountaineer Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2006 Posts: 238	the post above mine is pretty good. I must have been typing my tirade when he posted.

August 9, 2007, 11:25 PM	#24
Rogueone Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2007 Location: Northern Virginia, DC Metro area Posts: 204	it is a compelling question though. I've wondered the same thing. If you waited, and the perp didn't shoot anyone and left the building, what about following them outside to see if you might be able to hold them for the police? bad thinking due to lack of cover and still more customers likely roaming around I guess? I'd really hate to have to let a criminal leave knowing I could stop him, but I would be very concerned about where I was positioned, would my screaming freeze cause more problems, etc. This type of scenario is actually one of the "reasonings" that persuaded me to start carrying, along with the VT shootings and that ex military old man in Detroit about a week or two later who got pummeled trying to get in his car and a group of kids were in the next parking spot watching and doing nothing. That one drove me nuts. I presume in that case, there was no way to know the old man wasn't going to be killed, considering how hard he was being hit upside the head by the door, and I probably would have shot in that case, gotten as close as I reasonably could if time was available and dropped the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]. That disgusted me more than most other incidents.