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Old January 9, 2014, 11:06 AM   #1
Guv
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Past 10 rd mag Limits Effect on 40S&W and 45 ACP

So how many of you out there feel the old 10 round limit for new magazines and new guns helped boost 40 S&W and 45 ACP sales years ago? This isn't about weather you like them or not but speaking for myself there was no way back then I would have bought a full size 9mm, just to have bullets half way down the grip!
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Old January 9, 2014, 12:05 PM   #2
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I think it's a factor, certainly. I'm lucky enough to live in a jurisdiction that doesn't restrict capacity and I prefer .40 S&W, but the 18+1 capacity of my Mec-Gar magazines for my Beretta 92 is certainly appealing.

If I lived in a jurisdiction that limited magazine sizes to 10 or lower, I'd absolutely use .45 - a lot of great options like the Sig P220, Smith & Wesson M&P, and Beretta PX4 have capacities in that window. Without the capacity advantage, 9 loses a good bit of appeal for me.

All of that being academic if you can't hit your target in a vital area, of course.
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Old January 9, 2014, 01:01 PM   #3
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Yes, I also agree I carry a P229 in 9mm most of the time and capacity was a primary consideration. If I were limited to ten rounds I’d probably find it just as easy to carry my P220 Carry which is basically the same size and utilizes the same holsters.
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Old January 9, 2014, 01:11 PM   #4
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Back then (early 2000) I bought 2, 220ST's and a 4006. Really wanted a 92 Beretta but avoided it untill the ban went away, my wife was sooo happy when the ban was lifted!
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Old January 9, 2014, 01:24 PM   #5
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It hasn't affected my decisions much. Even though we don't have magazine limits here in New Mexico none of my magazines hold more than ten.
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Old January 9, 2014, 06:21 PM   #6
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40 S&W hit the market in 1990. The AWB in 1994. Given the option of buying a beretta 96 holding 10 rounds of 40 or an identical sized model 92 holding 10 rounds of 9mm a great many chose the 40. Same with all other brands. I certainly think it had a huge effect on the 40's initial success. The timing was just about perfect.
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Old January 9, 2014, 06:25 PM   #7
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Big factor. Like others have said it came down to 10rds why not choose the bigger bullet.
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Old January 9, 2014, 07:02 PM   #8
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Big factor. Like others have said it came down to 10rds why not choose the bigger bullet.
How about recoil management and faster follow-up shots?

I am not sure how much of an influence magazine capacity has had on consumers. I will admit however that it would be interesting to see what make or model sells better in those affected areas.
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Old January 9, 2014, 07:24 PM   #9
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What I think I'm meaning is the "high cap" ban that may have been part of the Brady Bill, some time in the 90's? Pretty sure it was nation wide at the time. What jmr40 said I believe is right on the money!
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Old January 10, 2014, 10:17 AM   #10
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In addition to the effect you described, the combination of the AWB and shall-issue CHL laws has also been credited with pushing manufacturers to make 9mm pistols smaller.
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Old January 10, 2014, 10:55 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Guv
What I think I'm meaning is the "high cap" ban that may have been part of the Brady Bill, some time in the 90's? Pretty sure it was nation wide at the time.
It wasn't the Brady Bill, it was part of the 1994 Crime Bill. This bill included a ban on any new manufacture of magazines holding more than 10 rounds and also a ban on so-called "assault weapons" that limited certain cosmetic features on rifles. These bans lasted from 1994 to 2004.

And I definitely was someone who bought a .45 instead of a 9mm because of the ban. My first handgun was a full-sized Kimber I bought in 2000 when I turned 21. I originally wanted a Glock 17 or 19, but I hated the idea of having all that wasted space in the grip and I didn't want to pay $150 each for pre-ban mags.

Now that the ban is over, I've gone back to 9mm. Though since then I've decided that I'd still rather have 10 rounds of 9mm than .45; the difference in effectiveness between 9mm and .45 is so small that it definitely doesn't make up for the lower recoil and faster follow-up shots of the 9mm. For me, anyway. Someone else might decide differently.
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Old January 10, 2014, 10:59 AM   #12
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My brother bought a glock 20 (I think) with a 50GI conversion just incase some thing like that effected him. The 50GI is not common but he has a lot of brass and realods for it.

Granted it not as powerful at the 10mm the gun originally was but its "fun" and he likes it! Its not like you cant convert the gun back to 10mm at any time.
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Old January 10, 2014, 11:02 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by carguychris
In addition to the effect you described, the combination of the AWB and shall-issue CHL laws has also been credited with pushing manufacturers to make 9mm pistols smaller.
Yeah, for me the ban wasn't so much that I thought 10 rounds wasn't enough, it was the fact that we had all these full-sized double-stack guns with artificially limited magazine capacity. The 10-round limit of the Glock 26, for example, is a lot easier to stomache for me simply because that's all that will fit in the grip. But it was extremely annoying to see a gun like the Glock 17 -- a gun capable of fitting a 17-round mag in the grip -- artificially limited to 10 rounds. All that wasted space just got to me.
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Old January 10, 2014, 11:06 AM   #14
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Thanks Theo,

I knew some one out there had a better memory than I! I do remember all those way over priced high caps! It was kinda frantic back then, it looks like it expired September 13 2004.

Last edited by Guv; January 10, 2014 at 11:11 AM.
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Old January 10, 2014, 11:36 AM   #15
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Big factor. Like others have said it came down to 10rds why not choose the bigger bullet?
Because the ever-so-slightly bigger bullet isn't all that much bigger, and cannot be shown to have any significantly different effect on actual humans.

If we are talking about common duty-use handgun rounds, it comes down to placement first, penetration second ... and almost everything else being so far down the list it isn't worth arguing about.

I know people who shoot .45ACP because they like the "push" of the recoil, and .40S&W guys who like the kick, and 9mm guys who like the fact that it's easier to shoot. There are always the guys who want .357sig or 10mm for bragging rights.

I shoot everything ... but mostly 9mm and .40S&W. I do note that a 10-round .45ACP handgun does seem to "balance" better in the hand owning to the weight. A Glock 17 with a 10 round mag just feels odd.

In actual practice, it just doesn't make a difference ... pick one and shoot what you like.
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Old January 10, 2014, 12:34 PM   #16
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If you look at the effect of the 94 AWB, you see, besides the general idiocy of gun banners, the law of unintended consequences, at work.

One result of the politician's desire to "protect" us from the "evil" of hi-cap magazines, (even when the mags were not "high capacity" but were the standard size for the gun) was the creation, and popularity(read sales) of large numbers of smaller more easily concealed handguns.

The .40 and the .45 benefited the most from the mag limit, BUT the 9mm also got a share.

Look at all the "compact" models of regular duty size guns. These did not exist, except as custom conversions before the 94 AWB.

Very few gun people were pleased at having only 10rnds in pistols that prior to the law came with mags holding 12,13,15,17, etc. Suddenly, all the advantages of the fat body hi cap wondernines went away. Sales of these kinds of guns dropped, rather sharply. at the same time sales of single stack guns (in all calibers) increased. Lots of people, decided to buy a .40 or a .45, over a 9mm, when the law limited them to the same number of rounds.

Gun makers were pretty quick to realize the trend, and started by shaving off the now "extra" length of the butt. This helped, but created a rather unbalanced pistol, so barrel & slide length were also reduced.

End result, the AWB's mag capacity created a huge popularity boost for a class of pistols that had been largely overlooked before. Full size gun calibers in compact guns that were easier to conceal and carry than their duty size ancestors. The AWB put these guns on the street, in large numbers. And having them, people found a utility, and a desire for more. These guns, from a variety of makers not only did not fade away with the sunset of the AWB (Federal level, some states still have essentially the same law on their books - if not something even more restrictive), these little guns have retained their popularity, and it has even grown, with the passage of revised carry laws in many states.

Also, just FYI, Revolvers saw a pretty big sales boost from the AWB, too.

When the legal limit is 10, somehow 6 (and likely 6 more powerful shots) doesn't seem like such a big disadvantage anymore....
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Old January 10, 2014, 12:46 PM   #17
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You know 44, I wondered if the decline in DA revolver sales now is due to the availability and reasonable price of "high caps" today. 357/9mm/40S&W could all fill the same basic need so why limit your self to 5,6 or 7 rounds?
Not trying to start an semi-auto vs DA revolver argument here.
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Old January 10, 2014, 10:28 PM   #18
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Capacity certainly plays a part. For generations the revolver was king, but we are now into the second generation since the autopistol conquered the last commonly visible bastion of the revolver, law enforcement duty use.

Believe it or not, there are actually serving officers who not only have never used a revolver, there are some who do not even know how to load and unload one.

The traditional advantages of the semi auto have always been its flat shape and its capacity advantage over a revolver. And the capacity includes the speed and ease of reloads. With today's improvements in so many areas, autos are now considered reliable, ammo is sufficient power, so until you get up to magnum levels, the revolver's traditional advantages are less in many people's eyes than they used to be.

Some of the new shooters discover revolvers, but more seem to stay with autos, at least for some time. I've seen lots of posts from guys who only "discovered" the joy of revolvers after years of shooting autos. Guys like that might have gone through 2-3 or maybe more semis then they get A revolver, and keep it. They may still go through more semis, looking for that "best" carry gun, but tend to hang on to that revolver, maybe adding another in later years. This, of course shows in the sales figures.
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Old January 11, 2014, 02:04 PM   #19
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I would not buy a full size 9mm, 40, or 357 Sig if I had the misfortune of living in a place with an artificial, arbitrary, asinine 10 round magazine limit (no grandfather clause like allowed in 1994).

I disdain the thought of sticking an artificial 10 round capacity magazine in a pistol designed to hold more, like the Glock 23/32.

Under such draconian law, I would carry a Glock 27/33 (instead of the 23/32) on principle, as they are designed for a 9 round magazine.

If doomed/forced (example: being just a few years away from retirement) to live in ultra oppressive NY, only a Glock 36 or 1911 (Tripp 7 round magazines) Kahr MK/PM series ect... would be acceptable (I would not carry a higher capacity magazine downloaded to 7 rounds).
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Old January 11, 2014, 07:06 PM   #20
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I think this has had an effect in states which more egregiously violate rights. In some of the worst, like NY, we've also seen renewed interest in wheel guns.
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Old January 11, 2014, 08:05 PM   #21
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There is always an upswing in the interest in revolvers after every fresh restriction on semi autos.

I think this is because those people with an interest in having one (or any gun) and don't yet have it, look at that, as long as you can legally have a gun, you will be able to have a revolver. And some of them decide the time to get to know one is now. Before they pass something else, and worse.
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Old January 11, 2014, 08:14 PM   #22
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I live in a limited capacity state, and the only reason I own a Beretta is because I found three 15rd pre ban mags for it. If I was limited to 10rd mags I would not have bought the gun. But regardless of the mag restrictions, 9mm is still my favorite round and I am hoping to find some pre-ban 229 high cap mags.
If I am to purchase another full sized pistol, it will either be a Sig 220, S&W M&P45, or an SR45. I however have no interest in owning a 226, M&P9, or an SR9 and be stuck with only 10rds. It sucks, but I count myself lucky to have the Beretta and some high cap mags to go with it, it's more than alot of others in my state can say.

I plan on getting an M1A in the future for similar reasons. I have a few 20rd pre ban mags for the M14/M1A put aside, and since I will likely not find anymore I will be forced to buy and use 10rd mags for range use and etc. So if I am stuck with 10rd mags, let them be .308 and not .223, which is why I have no interest in M4's/AR's. An AR with 10rd mags is neutered and defeats the whole purpose of running a gun with .223, might as well move up to .308.

Last edited by Dragline45; January 11, 2014 at 08:24 PM.
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Old January 12, 2014, 12:35 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guv
So how many of you out there feel the old 10 round limit for new magazines and new guns helped boost 40 S&W and 45 ACP sales years ago? This isn't about weather you like them or not but speaking for myself there was no way back then I would have bought a full size 9mm, just to have bullets half way down the grip!
There's no question that the '94-'04 AWB was responsible for a huge resurgence of interest in both the 1911 and the .45 ACP, and quite likely the .40 S&W caliber as well. Popularity of double-stack 9mm pistols dropped like a rock, with the exception of models for which spare pre-ban magazines were still relatively easy to find at gun shows (for a small fortune). But even during the ban years I still bought new Glock and Beretta 9mm pistols, and I simply used the post-ban mags that came with them for range practice while preserving my pre-ban mags in case of Armageddon. But a lot of buyers, especially new ones opted for larger 9 or 10-round options, and the 1911 notably came back from the dead just as "wondernine"-loving gunwriters were writing its epitaph.
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Old January 12, 2014, 08:30 AM   #24
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Dragline,

How do you tell the difference between a legal "pre ban " and say a current production 92 mag? I can remember some mags back then that said for "law enforcement only" but that was about it. We had a tool salesman (major company) that had a bunch of S&W Sigma "police only" mags for sale in the 90's, those things were taboo!
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Old January 12, 2014, 10:51 AM   #25
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Dragline,

How do you tell the difference between a legal "pre ban " and say a current production 92 mag?
There really isn't a clear distinction on what's pre-ban and what is post-ban for Beretta mags, although Sig mags for example as a general rule to be pre-ban must have the zipper seam on the back. From what I hear if a gunshop gets a shipment of pre-ban mags, they make a judgement call on whether they are pre-ban or not, and for the most part there is usually no indication to show that they are one or the other. Sig for example claims there is really no way to tell that if a mag is pre-ban or post-ban even if the majority of them will have the zipper backing. It's all a bunch of red tape, and for the most part there is no clear indication if a mag is pre-ban or not.

By far the easiest way to get pre-ban mags is to buy a used gun with them. Every now and then on the used page for my gun shop Glock's and Beretta's will pop up for sale with high cap mags included, although most of these are consignment guns and the asking price is almost always ridiculous. But high-cap mags being as valuable as gold in this state, it is to be expected. The other week I saw an M1A for sale on consignment with 8 high cap mags included, the asking price was something like $2500. Seeing as the gun used was worth probably $1000-$1200, that is like paying around $1500 for high-cap mags. I was lucky enough to find a good deal on mine, I found three like new 15rd factory Beretta pre-ban mags for $25 each, the M14 mags which are USGI and were still in the packaging were $40 each but I was only able to get 3 of them as well. Like I said before it sucks, but I just count myself lucky that I at least have some high caps. Sure I could move to a free state, but being close to my family is far more important to me than having all the high cap mags I want.

Last edited by Dragline45; January 12, 2014 at 10:57 AM.
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