Shooting the big iron - Colt's 3rd Model Dragoon

[Big-Blue]

Bill, since your last post was 18 months ago, should I assume you never did the mod, or did you do it and post the results elsewhere?

[Bill Akins]

Big-Blue wrote:
Bill, since your last post was 18 months ago, should I assume you never did the mod, or did you do it and post the results elsewhere?

I still want to do that mod, just haven't gotten around to it yet. So many other projects.


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[mec]

Beleview really can shoot. Head shots and he's not that close to the target. Of course the Dragoons and Walkers reach almost to the target but he does that with all of them.
Dragoons are neat because the size of the parts make them easy to disassemble/reassemble for cleaning. Bonus with this one and my Walker is that the hand/hand spring assembly spares required no fitting had perfect timing and are interchangeable between the two revolvers.

In spite of several things to make the catch tighter, this Dragoon tends to drop the loading lever like a Walker,- But not with this mild loading of rifle powder.

[AKexpat]

I know this is an old thread, but I find it fascinating!

Mr. Akins, I can't think of a better BP gun-combination experiment that would put you off from doing it this long. Take us out of our misery!

Thanks again for the (up to now) fantasy.

Jim

[45 Dragoon]

Hoof Hearted has some really good photos of this conversion over at www.cascity.com in the STORM section. Click on STORM and then on Dragoon/Walker . The first pic you'll see is a Dragoon with a Kirst Konversion Walker cyl.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

[Bill Akins]

Thanks for that info Mike (.45 Dragoon). I went there and found it at this link...
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/ind...c,45956.0.html

The pics of the Dragoon with the Kirst Walker conversion cylinder from that link. Nice to see my idea of adapting a Walker cylinder to a Dragoon is possible and that gentleman did it. You can see where he filed down the Dragoon's forcing cone to install the Walker conversion cylinder. Nice. Since the Walker cartridge conversion cylinder worked, there's no reason a regular black powder non conversion Walker cylinder wouldn't fit equally as well. One of these days I'd like to do that mod. Just isn't a big priority right now, but nice to know it is possible.

[45 Dragoon]

I think this version looks "right"!! Like a big revolver should! No gaps (in the lines), big everything, nothing but business!!!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

[4V50 Gary]

Bill Akins - that is one handsome revolver.

[Big-Blue]

Now that would be a great video to do. Take a Uberti Dragoon (which model?) and modify it for both a Kirst Walker conversion cylinder and a Walker BP cylinder.

I have a small mill and would love to take that on as a project, but only if I had some guidance.

How about it Bill?

[Big-Blue]

Maybe installing a Dragoon loading lever catch on a Walker would be better than modifying a Dragoon to take a Walker cylinder.

Anybody know anything about installing a Dragoon catch on a Walker?

[Bill Akins]

4V50 Gary wrote:
"Bill Akins - that is one handsome revolver".

I think so too Gary. But just wanted to make sure there is no misunderstanding. That is not my revolver. It is from the description of that link that Mike (.45 Dragoon) posted earlier at this thread. I went to that link, then dug around at the Cascity site, and found the post and pics Mike was talking about of the Dragoon that had been modified to take a Walker cylinder. The revolver belongs to "Hoof Hearted" who posted about it at Cascity.com at that link I posted in my previous post.

Big-Blue wrote:
"Now that would be a great video to do. Take a Uberti Dragoon (which model?) and modify it for both a Kirst Walker conversion cylinder and a Walker BP cylinder. I have a small mill and would love to take that on as a project, but only if I had some guidance. How about it Bill?"

Big-Blue, at the link I posted in my previous post, the owner of it ("Hoof Hearted") said it was a Colt 2nd gen Dragoon. But just because he said it was a "Colt 2nd gen Dragoon" doesn't mean it was a 2nd MODEL Dragoon. Because the only model Dragoon that has the same oval bolt and oval cylinder stops as the Walker....is the 1st model Dragoon. The 2nd and 3rd model Dragoons both have rectangular bolts and cylinder stops. So the only likely Dragoon candidate for the Walker cylinder conversion, that has the same oval bolt that will work on the oval stops on a Walker cylinder....is the 1st model Dragoon.

It is important to notice though, that Hoof Hearted's Dragoon's Walker conversion cylinder.....has rectangular bolt stops on its cylinder. (Look carefully in the pics of it I posted). So perhaps Hoof Hearted DID use a 2nd model Dragoon, but had his Walker conversion cylinder made with rectangular bolt stops instead of the usual oval Walker stops. That likely means he also changed out his oval bolt to a rectangular one.

Big-Blue, like I said, that isn't my revolver and I didn't do the modification. But I think I can tell from posts by "Duelist 54" (Mike), and using Hoof Hearted's modified example, coupled with common sense and logic, deduce how it might be done.

"Duelist 54" wrote earlier in this thread:....

Duelist 54 wrote:
"I don't have a 1st model Dragoon, but the Walker cylinder will work on a 3rd Dragoon frame. It indexes and locks up OK. I think the chambers will line up with the bore. You will need to take half an inch off of the forcing cone, That's basically all you have to play with, so I'm not sure you can get it to fit without milling down the frame contact area of the barrel as well. Probably you'll need to shorten the rammer too.You will also need to mill out the ball clearance area on the barrel because the longer cylinder is going to make that disappear.

Duelist 54 also said the arbor's are the same diameter on the Dragoon and the Walker.

So going by what Duelist 54 (Mike) said, and using logic and common sense,
as well as seeing the example of "Hoof Hearted"'s modified dragoon,...it looks like you'd start off using a 1st model Dragoon. As we've seen on Hoof Hearted Dragoon, the Walker cylinder will fit into the frame "window" if one mills down the forcing cone some. And like Duelist 54 (Mike) said, since you no longer have that large gap between the cylinder and the frame that previously was there because of the longer forcing cone, that means once you mill down that forcing cone, the area of the frame that is cut out for you to place the ball into a chamber, MAY be more rearward and closer to the cylinder and not be large enough and may have to be enlarged for a ball or conical to load into a chamber. Perhaps not. Wouldn't know for sure until you milled down the forcing cone and then went to load a ball or conical to see if they had enough clearance to load into a chamber. But Mike thinks it might need enlarging and it just may. So there's that to consider. And you MAY need to shorten the rear section of the Dragoon's rammer....but maybe not.

First thing I'd do would be to mill down the forcing cone and get the Walker cylinder fitted to the 1st model Dragoon's frame "window". Then I'd see if the conical shaped loading port needed enlarging or not. Then I'd see if the rear section of the rammer needed to be shortened or not.

That looks like about it to me. Can anyone else add anything to that? Did I miss anything?

Big-Blue wrote:
"Maybe installing a Dragoon loading lever catch on a Walker would be better than modifying a Dragoon to take a Walker cylinder.
Anybody know anything about installing a Dragoon catch on a Walker?"

The whole reason I thought about if it was possible to do this mod of putting a Walker cylinder on a Dragoon, was to use a Dragoon, so that would decrease the size and weight of that large flat area of the Walker's barrel where the wedge goes so it wasn't as long and as heavy as on the Walker, as well as to get the slightly shorter and handier barrel length of the Dragoon. It's subjective whether it is "better" to just put a Dragoon's rammer on a Walker rather than modifying a Dragoon to take a Walker cylinder.....but I think it is better to modify the Dragoon to take the Walker's cylinder....in my opinion.

But if you just wanted a Dragoon catch on a Walker, what I would do would be to measure the length of the Dragoon rammer, then simply file a dovetail into the bottom of the Walker's barrel, tap the rammer catch into place, remove the old Walker rammer's spring from the Walker barrel, replace the Dragoon rammer's rear section with the Walker's rammer rear section, then snap the rammer into its catch.....and you're done. But.....you still have the same longer and heavier flats section of the Walker's barrel (where the wedge goes) instead of the shorter and lighter barrel flats section of the Dragoon's, and you'd still have the longer barrel of the Walker too.

Another thing you could do to avoid having to buy a Dragoon rammer's front section, would be to just buy the Dragoon rammer's catch. Then file that dovetail into the bottom of the barrel and tap the catch into place like I said, then cut off the very end of the rounded Walker's rammer and file a slot and drill a hole for a pin across the end of the Walker's rammer, and install a sliding catch and spring. So you'd be simply modifying the very end of the front of the original Walker rammer to be held by a spring loaded catch at its front.

See what I mean about that longer flats section of the Walker's barrel where the wedge goes in these below comparison pics? I'm not talking about the round barrel section, but that part of the barrel with the flats on it where the wedge goes. The Dragoon's is much shorter and therefore has to be lighter, plus the Dragoon's barrel is a little shorter and thus lighter too. That's why I think it would be "better" to modify the 1st model Dragoon to take a Walker cylinder rather than simply changing the Walker to have a front spring loaded catch on its rammer.






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[Big-Blue]

Now that you point it out, I can see that the flat area is much larger on the Walker. I'd not noticed that before.

Looking at the two pictures you posted I can also see that the cut out to load the conical is smaller on the Dragoon, than on the Walker. I can also see that there isn't much space in the flat to enlarge the cut out area. I'm thinking you'd be limited to round balls.

I like your idea about modifying the end of the Walker load lever to add a spring and pin, and then to simply install the Dragoon catch in a dove tail on the bottom of the Walker barrel.

Reducing the weight would be nice, but I love the look of the 9" Walker barrel. I've got too much shake with 4.5 lbs hung off the end of my arm. I'll probably just stick with shooting the pistol from a brace.

[Bill Akins]

Big-Blue wrote:
"Looking at the two pictures you posted I can also see that the cut out to load the conical is smaller on the Dragoon, than on the Walker. I can also see that there isn't much space in the flat to enlarge the cut out area. I'm thinking you'd be limited to round balls."

I think there's a little more room there to enlarge the conical cutout than it first appears. Look carefully at the conical load cutout in the below pic of Hoof Hearted's modified Dragoon. If it needs enlarging at all, it won't be too much and you don't have to cut out all the way through the frame, just enough so that the sloped nose of the conical can clear just enough for you to ease the conical bullet's base back into the chamber. Plus most people shoot round ball anyway. If you did want to load conical bullets, you could easily remove the wedge and load the conical bullets into the chamber with it off the frame using a separate vertical tabletop cylinder loader.




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[Bill Akins]

I private messaged HoofHearted at CasCity and he responded thusly:...

"The oval shaped bolt works fine in the square bolt stops. This is how Kirst makes them so you just have to make sure the timing is correct for you application and fit the hand. I used this Dragoon due to the fact it was the one I had............I do not shoot this revolver as percussion.
To see more about it go to: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cartr...26097890808536"

So HoofHearted says that Kirst makes their Walker conversion cylinders with rectangular bolt stops instead of oval bolt stops, and he says the oval bolt of a 1st model Dragoon, will work with the rectangular bolt stops of the Kirst Walker cartridge conversion cylinder. That tells me that the 1st model Dragoon, (that has the same oval bolt that the Walker has), will work with the Kirst conversion cylinders for the Walker that have the rectangular bolt cuts in the cylinder. And since the 2nd and 3rd model Dragoons ALREADY have a rectangular bolt, they naturally will work with the Kirst Walker rectangular bolt stops conversion cylinders too.

However, what I still don't yet know, is if the rectangular bolts of the 2nd and 3rd model Dragoons, will work with the oval cylinder cutouts of a Walker percussion cylinder. That question hasn't been answered yet. So as it stands, without me knowing the answer to that, then if one wanted to use a Walker percussion cylinder (not a conversion cylinder) in a Dragoon, it might be best to use a 1st model Dragoon that also has the same oval bolt that the Walker percussion cylinder stops are.


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[45 Dragoon]

Bill,

I didn't want to post before Hoof had a chance to. The width of the oval bolt will allow it to work with the rectangular notches. ( One of my two converted 1sts still has the oval bolt.)
If you want to put a Walker cyl. on a 2nd or 3rd, you just need to shape (reduce the length of) the bolt head to fit the oval notches.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

[Bill Akins]

.45 Dragoon (Mike) wrote:
" The width of the oval bolt will allow it to work with the rectangular notches. (One of my two converted 1sts still has the oval bolt.)"

Yep, that's what HoofHearted private messaged me too.

.45 Dragoon (Mike) wrote:
"If you want to put a Walker cyl. on a 2nd or 3rd, you just need to shape (reduce the length of) the bolt head to fit the oval notches. Mike"

That makes sense, and is good to know if one already has a 2nd or 3rd model Dragoon they decide to put a Walker percussion cylinder on.

But it also makes sense to me, that if one knows ahead of time, that they are going to put a Walker oval stops percussion cylinder on a Dragoon they haven't bought yet, it also makes sense to just buy a 1st model Dragoon that already has the same oval bolt that the Walker percussion cylinder takes.



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[45 Dragoon]

Yap, you're right about making sense!
Of course a lot of folks like the 3rd for the rounded TG. The good thing is you can "knock the corners off" of the 3rds bolt head and fit a Walker or a Walker/Kirst cyl.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

[Bill Akins]

I've been watching different auctions for 1st model Dragoons. One thing I don't get, is why I see some actual modern Colt 1st model Dragoons (actually modern repros marked as if made by Colt with the rearing Stallion), that some of them have the rounded top grips like the Walker, and then some of the same modern made Colt 1st model Dragoons (again also marked as if made by Colt with the rearing Stallion) also have the squared top grips. What's up with that? Anyone know?

Is it because they aren't really made by Colt, and Colt is using different U.S. or Italian companies to make their supposedly "true Colts" and thus some companies make them with the rounded top grips and some make them with the squared top grips even though they are all supposedly supposed to be true copies of the original Colt 1st model Dragoon? Is that it? That is messed up if that is the case and Colt is allowing that to happen with their name on it. When one buys what is marked as a "Colt" with the rearing Stallion and thinks they are getting an accurate to the original 1st model Dragoon reproduction, there shouldn't be both rounded top and squared top different versions of grips right?



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[hartcreek]

I see doing the mod if you have one of the older Ubertis and the loading lever drops but mine I just bought it last year has never come loose and I regularily shoot it with 50 grains of pyrodex.

[45 Dragoon]

Bill,
The reason is , there are two 1st Mod. Dragoons. The Whitneyville Dragoon (my fav.) is the " in-between" Dragoon. It has the Walker frame ( trig. and bolt screw pins aren't drilled all the way through) and thus the grip as well. This is also the rarest of the Dragoons.
The true 1st Mod.(1848's) has the new grip and the Walker sized frame has both screw pins drilled through.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

[Bill Akins]

"Hartcreek wrote:
"I see doing the mod if you have one of the older Ubertis and the loading lever drops but mine I just bought it last year has never come loose and I regularily shoot it with 50 grains of pyrodex."

Hi Hartcreek. My thoughts on doing the mod of putting a Walker cylinder on a Dragoon, were not just because of the problem with the loading lever on the Walker dropping upon firing. That was part of it, but mainly I was interested in doing a mod like that to decrease the weight of the flat area on the Walker's barrel to the less long and less heavy flat area of the flats of the Dragoon's barrel, coupled with the lighter weight and handier shorter barrel of the Dragoon.



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[Bill Akins]

.45 Dragoon wrote:
Bill,The reason is , there are two 1st Mod. Dragoons. The Whitneyville Dragoon (my fav.) is the " in-between" Dragoon. It has the Walker frame ( trig. and bolt screw pins aren't drilled all the way through) and thus the grip as well. This is also the rarest of the Dragoons.
The true 1st Mod.(1848's) has the new grip and the Walker sized frame has both screw pins drilled through.
Mike"

Thanks Mike, that explains that. I also like the looks of the Whitneyville Dragoon best too. I didn't know there were two different versions of the 1st model Dragoon. Thanks very much for that info.


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[Hardy]

I shut my store down. I have a 3rd colt dragoon-#222+/- sig series by colt gold and silver. I think its a 3rd model but will have to check. Never been fired-who wants [email protected] It was a marine edition. Whitneyville $700 has original uncracked box with white shipping box. The wedge on left and some screws have been polished to where gold plating is showing just the silver plating. I know only 800 or so were made and retailed for over $800. But they are now out of production. Good collectible or shooter

[Hardy]

Ok cheapos-ha--650 I forgot how to upload pics on this thread but email me i'll send pics---Hey--I'm gonna shoot it if I don't get you to buy this unfired.