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Old May 27, 2017, 09:16 PM   #26
dogtown tom
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Aguila Blanca .....Theohazard has already given you the link to the answer. You don't even need to have a car registered in each state. If you own houses in two states, as far as the BATFE is concerned you are a resident of whichever one you are living in at the instant of time in question. Yes, you can [legally] buy guns in both states.
WRONG.
Ownership of property does not by itself establish residency.
You could own a home, rent a home, rent a townhouse........if you cannot produce the required documentation then you have not satisfied the requirements of Federal law.

Read Ruling 2010-6:
Quote:
Held further, the intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid identification documents. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration.
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Old May 29, 2017, 10:13 AM   #27
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How does that BATFE statement in any way make what I wrote incorrect? The issue of how you demonstrate the validity of your second place of residence is secondary. The fundamental rule is that you can have multiple places of residence and the BATFE's determination is that, for the purposes of transferring firearms, you are a "resident" of whichever home you are living in at the time of the transfer.

Granted, if you own a rental property in another state that doesn't qualify. The second (or third, or fourth) home must be a place where you live for parts of each year.
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Old May 29, 2017, 12:06 PM   #28
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It seems like "we have a failure to communicate."

The issue is we are dealing with two different levels of legislation. One is state, the other is federal and to make it even more obtuse the federal component involves ATF - gun control. (yes ATF is gun control no matter what the liberals say.)

For state purposes and voting you must have certain documentation like vehicle registration, voter registration, local utilities, etc. There is no federal counterpart to these. these are issued by the states. The federal gun laws are totally separate and that is why the items mentioned below aren't used to establish residence. Federal law depends on different criteria to establish residence. Criteria that are more vague than state definitions of residence. In case you are wondering why the state requirements are more strict try living in NY, CT, NJ, etc and say your residence is elsewhere. People try this to avoid paying their ridiculous taxes all the time they close the loopholes so they can take advantage of the people that live there. that's why I choose not to live in places like that.

Having said all of that, I have been denied purchase in a state where I was a residence using the federal restriction but the local dealer refused to file the form for permission for me to execute my 2A rights. It was cheaper to buy elsewhere than hire a lawyer to convenience the otherwise.

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Old May 29, 2017, 12:23 PM   #29
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The ATF accepts only government issued proof of residency (as I understand it)

Quote:
Question 18.a. Identification:
Before a licensee may sell or deliver a firearm to a nonlicensee, the licensee must establish the identity, place of residence, and age of the tansferee/buyer. The transferee/buyer must provide a valid government-
issued photo identification document to the transferor/seller that contains the
transferee's/buyer's name, residence address, and date of birth. A driver's license or an identification card issued by a State in place of a license is acceptable. Social Security cards are not acceptable because no address, date of birth, or photograph is shown on the cards. A combination of government-issued documents may be provided. See instructions for question 18.b. Supplemental Documentation.

Question 18.b. Supplemental Documentation:
Licensees may accept a combination of valid government-issued documents to satisfy the identification document requirements of the law. The required valid government-issued photo identification document bearing the name, photograph, and date of birth of transferee/buyer may be supplemented by another valid, government-issued document showing the transferee's/buyer's residence address. This supplemental documentation should be recorded in question 18.b., with the issuing authority and type of identification presented. For example, if the transferee/buyer has two States of residence and is trying to buy a handgun in State X, he may provide a driver's license
(showing his name, date of birth, and photograph)
issued by State Y and another government-issued document
(such as a tax document) from State X showing his residence address. A valid electronic document from a government website may be used as supplemental documentation provided it contains the transferee's/buyer's name and current residence address.
Is a utility bill a government issued document? My utility bill is issued by the utility company and not the city or state. I do pay property taxes and that is a government issued document. A person renting a home doesn't get a tax document because the person liable for the taxes is the owner.

It is, apparently, possible to have multiple residences in different states. It appears that just living in a state temporarily for a job assignment does not qualify unless you are in the armed forces. (which is addressed elsewhere)
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Old May 29, 2017, 12:57 PM   #30
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A person renting a home doesn't get a tax document because the person liable for the taxes is the owner.
But that person would have a copy of the lease.

If they have a job, there will be a pay stub showing an address as another possibility
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Old May 29, 2017, 01:21 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootistPRS
It appears that just living in a state temporarily for a job assignment does not qualify
It would qualify if you're actually "making a home" there. Even if it's temporary. Again, ATF Ruling 2010-6 is quite clear on this. People keep getting hung up on the word "temporary", but here's the word in context from that Ruling:

Quote:
Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State.
It seems to me that it would be hard to convince a court that living somewhere for a few months on a temporary work assignment is a "transient act" that constitutes "temporary travel", especially considering the fact that the person must also demonstrate no intention of "making a home" in that state. We're specifically discussing situations where a person is actually making a home in a state. So, under federal firearms law -- and the ATF's interpretation of federal law -- that person is indeed a resident of that state, even if it's temporary.

Even if you're on a temporary work assignment, if you're doing the things that one would be expected to do when they're living somewhere (renting an apartment, traveling daily to a regular work assignment, sleeping there regularly, paying utility bills, etc.), it would be pretty hard to convince someone that you're not "making a home" there. And remember, if you're making a home in a state, then you're a resident of that state for the purposes of buying a firearm under federal law.
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Old May 29, 2017, 03:55 PM   #32
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FITASC,
Neither a copy of a lease nor a check stub is a government document. That seems to be a clear requirement.

Theohazard,
Can you actually define a 9 month stay while being employed from out of state as an attempt to "make a home there"?
Making a home requires some kind of investment, living on property you own, or looking for property to buy, maybe? Does he have any intention to spend time in that state after the job he is doing is over? Will he spend a few months at his second home every year? It seems one must show an intent to make it a "home" in order to be a resident. Will he pay the state income tax? No because he is an out of state employee. If he was a resident he would be liable for the state taxes.
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Old May 29, 2017, 04:15 PM   #33
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No because he is an out of state employee.
Depends on the state - CA charges income tax on visiting pro athletes who come into the state to play........
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Old May 29, 2017, 07:11 PM   #34
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Theohazard - Even if you're on a temporary work assignment, if you're doing the things that one would be expected to do when they're living somewhere (renting an apartment, traveling daily to a regular work assignment, sleeping there regularly, paying utility bills, etc.), it would be pretty hard to convince someone that you're not "making a home" there. And remember, if you're making a home in a state, then you're a resident of that state for the purposes of buying a firearm under federal law.
Again states can go both ways even in the same state. For example, even if you are only working a week or so some states try to declare you a temporary resident so they can collect state revenue taxes but then refuse to provide unemployment even though they earlier declared you a resident of the state. It's governments and they bend or interpret the rules for their gain not the citizens.
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Old May 29, 2017, 07:21 PM   #35
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Aguila Blanca How does that BATFE statement in any way make what I wrote incorrect?
You wrote: "....If you own houses in two states, as far as the BATFE is concerned you are a resident of whichever one you are living in at the instant of time in question."

Again, "ownership" of your residence is NOT required and has absolutely nothing to do with residency.
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Old May 29, 2017, 07:27 PM   #36
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Quote:
ShootistPRS ...Is a utility bill a government issued document?
It is if issued by a government entity.



Quote:
My utility bill is issued by the utility company and not the city or state.
Then you would need to use another government issued document.
My electric bill is from a business, but my water/sewer/garbage bill is from my city.







Quote:
I do pay property taxes and that is a government issued document. A person renting a home doesn't get a tax document because the person liable for the taxes is the owner.
Correct, so a renter would need to find another document.


Quote:
It is, apparently, possible to have multiple residences in different states. It appears that just living in a state temporarily for a job assignment does not qualify unless you are in the armed forces. (which is addressed elsewhere)
Good grief. Please reread ATF Ruling 2010-6.
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Old May 29, 2017, 07:30 PM   #37
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Minorcan Again states can go both ways even in the same state. For example, even if you are only working a week or so some states try to declare you a temporary resident so they can collect state revenue taxes but then refuse to provide unemployment even though they earlier declared you a resident of the state. It's governments and they bend or interpret the rules for their gain not the citizens.
What a particular state thinks, interprets or believes has absolutely NOTHING to do with Ruling 2010-6.
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Old May 29, 2017, 11:44 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootistPRS
Theohazard,
Can you actually define a 9 month stay while being employed from out of state as an attempt to "make a home there"?
Yes, that's a classic example of "making a home" under the 1968 GCA. For the purpose of buying a firearm, think of it simply as where you live. If you're living somewhere, you're making a home there, even if it's temporary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootistPRS
Making a home requires some kind of investment, living on property you own, or looking for property to buy, maybe?
Ownership of property isn't required to establish residency; the ATF explicitly says that in ATF Ruling 2010-6. In fact the ATF even allows an RVer to use the address of the spot where their RV is parked as their residence. Even a homeless person's tent on a street corner could qualify as a residence, but they would have to get some government-issued documentation of their tent's address to purchase a gun from an FFL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootistPRS
Does he have any intention to spend time in that state after the job he is doing is over? Will he spend a few months at his second home every year? It seems one must show an intent to make it a "home" in order to be a resident. Will he pay the state income tax? No because he is an out of state employee. If he was a resident he would be liable for the state taxes.
You're way over-thinking this. Read ATF Ruling 2010-6 and 27 CFR 478.11; residency is actually super simple. It breaks down as simply as this: Where are you living right now at this moment? People need to stop over analyzing this, because this is one of the simplest parts of our federal firearms laws. Many people are confused with the federal residency requirements to buy a gun because they think it's way more complicated than it really is. But it's actually pretty simple: Do you currently live in state X? Then you're currently a resident of state X. That's it.

If you're living somewhere, even for a short period of time, then that's your residence. If you're visiting somewhere on a vacation, then that's not your residence.
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Old May 29, 2017, 11:49 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minorcan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theohazard
Even if you're on a temporary work assignment, if you're doing the things that one would be expected to do when they're living somewhere (renting an apartment, traveling daily to a regular work assignment, sleeping there regularly, paying utility bills, etc.), it would be pretty hard to convince someone that you're not "making a home" there. And remember, if you're making a home in a state, then you're a resident of that state for the purposes of buying a firearm under federal law.
Again states can go both ways even in the same state. For example, even if you are only working a week or so some states try to declare you a temporary resident so they can collect state revenue taxes but then refuse to provide unemployment even though they earlier declared you a resident of the state. It's governments and they bend or interpret the rules for their gain not the citizens.
We're not talking about any state's definition of residency here. We're simply talking about the specific definition of residency for the purpose of transferring a firearm under federal law, which has already been mentioned and cited numerous times in this thread.
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Old May 30, 2017, 10:14 AM   #40
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Quote:
Theohazard
Quote:
Quote:Originally Posted by ShootistPRS
Making a home requires some kind of investment, living on property you own, or looking for property to buy, maybe?
Ownership of property isn't required to establish residency; the ATF explicitly says that in ATF Ruling 2010-6. In fact the ATF even allows an RVer to use the address of the spot where their RV is parked as their residence. Even a homeless person's tent on a street corner could qualify as a residence, but they would have to get some government-issued documentation of their tent's address to purchase a gun from an FFL.
Correct...but a word of caution to the RV'ers.

In order for someone who lives in an RV to claim a particular state as their "state of residence", (just like the homeless person above) they need to provide the same documentation as someone living in a home or apartment.

This means a physical address. ATF regulations clearly do not permit the use of a P.O Box or other mailing address. The address you claim as your current residence address must actually be the address where you reside.

For someone who is travelling the country constantly it may well be impossible to truthfully claim a "current address and state of residence" on Question 2 of the Form 4473.
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Old May 30, 2017, 11:47 AM   #41
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Quote:
This means a physical address. ATF regulations clearly do not permit the use of a P.O Box or other mailing address. The address you claim as your current residence address must actually be the address where you reside.

For someone who is travelling the country constantly it may well be impossible to truthfully claim a "current address and state of residence" on Question 2 of the Form 4473.
So what is the answer in this scenario:

Mr. and Mrs. Smith live 8 months in Michigan and then bring their RV to Florida for the winter where they put it in a RV park. All of their IDs are Michigan, including the tag and registration of the RV. For four months they are residents of FL, living in the RV, so how would they go about (or better I guess what documents would they need) to go buy a handgun in FL?
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Old May 31, 2017, 03:57 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by FITASC
So what is the answer in this scenario:

Mr. and Mrs. Smith live 8 months in Michigan and then bring their RV to Florida for the winter where they put it in a RV park. All of their IDs are Michigan, including the tag and registration of the RV. For four months they are residents of FL, living in the RV, so how would they go about (or better I guess what documents would they need) to go buy a handgun in FL?
If they're residing in their RV at an RV park, then the address at their RV park is their residence. They'd need to get some kind of government-issued documentation showing their name and this address, and then they could combine that with a government-issued photo ID to buy a firearm.

They wouldn't just need to use their FL address to buy a handgun, they'd also need to use their FL address to buy a long gun. Yes, an out-of-state resident can buy a long gun, but they're not out-of-state residents, they're actually living in FL. So if they put their MI address on the 4473 while they're living in FL, that would be a felony because they're lying about their residence on the 4473.
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Old May 31, 2017, 11:55 AM   #43
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So what kind of government-issued ID can an RVer get when parked at a rented/leased space in an RV campground that's owned by someone else? It's not like they're going to get a tax bill, or even a utility bill.
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Old May 31, 2017, 03:43 PM   #44
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Aguila Blanca So what kind of government-issued ID can an RVer get when parked at a rented/leased space in an RV campground that's owned by someone else? It's not like they're going to get a tax bill, or even a utility bill.
"ID" isn't needed as they can use their current government issued photo ID they already have. What they must provide the dealer is government issued documentation that shows their current address in Florida and their name.

This could be a hunting/fishing license, letter from the city, state, or Federal governments, even a traffic ticket.
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Old May 31, 2017, 07:20 PM   #45
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The definition of residency as listed in 27 CFR 478.11 as required in 2010-6 ATF ruling:

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:
Example 1.
A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Since the question is whether or not the person is a resident and the definition used in the document excludes his visitation as "residency" he cannot purchase a gun out of state.
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Old May 31, 2017, 09:24 PM   #46
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Quote:
Today 07:20 PM
ShootistPRS The definition of residency as listed in 27 CFR 478.11 as required in 2010-6 ATF ruling:

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:
Example 1.
A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Since the question is whether or not the person is a resident and the definition used in the document excludes his visitation as "residency" he cannot purchase a gun out of state.
For your example, that would be correct.

And your example in no way, shape or form comes anywhere close to the OP's situation.
OP isn't on a "trip" or visit..........HE'S LIVING THERE.
All he has to do is get a government issued document that shows his name and current address in GA. (and the example of the RV'ers is the same)
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Old May 31, 2017, 09:43 PM   #47
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I'm sorry Tom, as I see it there is no intent to make a home, he is there on a business trip only and intends to return to his home after the business is completed. Of course he is living there, but he is NOT making a home there. He has no intention of making a home there. It is a business trip, albeit a prolonged business trip it remains a business trip. There is no intent to make a residence.
You are free to believe what you like.
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Old May 31, 2017, 10:05 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootistPRS
Of course he is living there, but he is NOT making a home there. He has no intention of making a home there.
For the purposes of federal law when buying a firearm, those are the same thing: If you're living somewhere you're making a home there.

We've explained this multiple times with several direct references to federal law and ATF rulings. I already pointed out that you're completely misinterpreting what the term "making a home" means.

Every time a thread about residency comes up, there's always someone who overthinks it. But it's super simple: Residency when transferring firearms is simply about where you're living at that moment.
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Old May 31, 2017, 10:21 PM   #49
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Quote:
Today 09:43 PM
ShootistPRS I'm sorry Tom, as I see it there is no intent to make a home, he is there on a business trip only and intends to return to his home after the business is completed. Of course he is living there, but he is NOT making a home there. He has no intention of making a home there. It is a business trip, albeit a prolonged business trip it remains a business trip. There is no intent to make a residence.
You are free to believe what you like.
So.........you believe his state of residence is in a state where HE DOES NOT LIVE?

Laughably wrong fella.
And here's why (my comments in RED)

Quote:

ATF Rul. 2010-6
..........A person’s “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 478.11 as “the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a
- 2 -
State with the intention of making a home in that State.” Ownership of a home or land within a given State is not sufficient, by itself, to establish a State of residence. However, ownership of a home or land within a particular State is not required to establish presence and intent to make a home in that State. Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State.
According to the OP, he's in GA for at least SIX MONTHS, that's not a "short term stay" by any stretch of the imagination.



To ensure compliance with this residency requirement, section 922(t) of the GCA requires licensees to examine a valid “identification document” (as defined in 18 U.S.C. 1028(d) and 27 CFR 478.11) of a firearm transferee. This document must contain the residence address of the transferee so that the licensee may verify the identity of the transferee and discern whether the transferee has the intention of making a home in a particular State. Licensees transferring a firearm to a person not licensed under the GCA are required, pursuant to 27 CFR 478.124, to record the firearm transaction on an ATF Form 4473, which requires, among other things, the transferee’s residence address, including the transferee’s State of residence as it appears on the valid identification document.
The term “identification document” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 1028(d)(3) as “a document made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.” The regulations, 27 CFR 478.11, define the term “identification document” as “[a] document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.” Identification documents include, but are not limited to, a driver’s license, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration. As explained in ATF Ruling 2001-5 (ATFQB 2001-4, 37), a combination of valid government documents may be used to satisfy the GCA’s State residency requirement.
See.......here's where ATF says a buyer must provide a government issued photo ID that shows his name and residence address. As the Form 4473 REQUIRES the buyers CURRENT residence address, an out of state license will not suffice on it's own.


ATF has previously addressed the eligibility of individuals to acquire firearms who maintain residences in more than one State. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.11 (definition of State of Residence), Example 2, clarify that a U.S. citizen with homes in two States may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a firearm in that State. See also ATF Publication 5300.4 (2005), Question and Answer B12, page 179.
Well?
ATF even says you can buy in multiple states DURING THE TIME YOU ACTUALLY RESIDE IN THAT PARTICULAR STATE.



Similarly, in ATF Ruling 80-21 (ATFB 1980-4, 25), ATF held that, during the time college students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off-campus location, they are considered residents of the State where the on-campus or off-campus housing is located.
Whuuuut?
Even a college student?
Do you still believe the OP isn't making GA his residence? A college student is MUCH more temporary or transient than the OP.





The same reasoning applies to citizens of the United States who reside temporarily outside of the country for extended periods of time, but who also maintain residency in a particular State. Where a citizen temporarily resides outside of the country, but also has the intention of making a home in a particular State, the citizen is a resident of the State during the time he or she actually resides in that State.
"During the time he or she actually resides in that State"
What part of that do you just not understand?





In acquiring a firearm, the individual must
- 3 -
demonstrate to the transferor-licensee that he or she is a resident of the State by presenting valid identification documents.
A government issued photo ID and if that ID does not show the current residence address a combination of other government issued documents may be used to show residency. That's all the OP needs to show.



Held, for the purpose of acquiring firearms under the Gun Control Act of 1968, a United States citizen who temporarily resides in a foreign country, but who also demonstrates the intention of making a home in a particular State, is a resident of the State during the time period he or she actually resides in that State.

Held further, the intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid identification documents. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration.
Someone like the OP WHO IS LIVING IN GA for SIX FREAKING MONTHS can easily obtain a government document showing his name and address in GA.
That would make him a resident of GA WHILE HE LIVES IN GA.


Date approved: November 10, 2010
Kenneth E. Melson
Deputy Director
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Old June 1, 2017, 06:38 AM   #50
Aguila Blanca
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So, Dogtown Tom, what you're really saying seems to be that, although the BATFE officially recognizes that a person may have multiple states of residence (at non-overlapping periods of time), the BATFE also effectively makes it impossible to purchase firearms (at least from in FFL) in more than one of the states. The directives you cite all point to an FFL needing to see photo ID, which means that such things as tax bills from a state in which someone owns a vacation home will not suffice. But just how does someone obtain photo ID in a second state?

As far as I know, no state will issue a driver's license to someone who maintains a driver's license and residence in another state. Car registrations, if one wanted to register a spare vehicle in the vacation home state, don't include a photo. Perhaps a carry permit would work, IF the second state issues permits, but ... will state B issue a permit using the address in their state if the applicant has a permit and driver's license from state A?

At one time I briefly thought that a passport or passport card might help ... until I remembered that a passport doesn't provide a current residence address.

So the BATFE recognizes in theory that a person may have more than one state of residence, but then they establish other rules that make it essentially impossible to proceed under that theory. Does that about sum it up?
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