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Old May 4, 2017, 05:19 AM   #1
steve4102
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If You Draw You Must Shoot

OK Bill SB40 would allow brandishing or pointing firearms(weapons)in self defense situations.

https://legiscan.com/OK/text/SB40/2017

Is this even necessary? I read the sticky above and from what I gather pointing or brandishing is a crime, but it can also be justifiable if one was in fear for his/her life or great bodily harm.

Quote:
"When you go and get your [concealed carry] license, that instructor tells you that you don't bring your gun out, you don't show your gun, you don't intimidate somebody with your gun," said Slaughterville Rep. Bobby Cleveland. "If you bring it out, you have to shoot."
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...-display-bill/

Really, that is what OK law states? I highly doubt that, but I could be wrong, thoughts?
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Old May 4, 2017, 06:15 AM   #2
Texas45
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Sounds to me like it is more like adding words to protect the cc individual should they be forced to draw the gun but not actually shot the perp. Protects the individual a little bit.

Protects those among us who would practice as much restraint as possible prior to pulling the trigger.

No OK law does not state "if you draw you must shoot" similar to TX law it is NOT a good idea to draw weapon AND not need to use it. That is when the other person (perp) has the opportunity to "turn the situation" and make you the bad guy for "threatening them with a gun" aka brandishing a weapon.


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Old May 4, 2017, 06:37 AM   #3
Minorcan
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In Florida brandishing a firearm can be agravated assault with a deadly weapon is a felony and has a minimum three year sentence. Don't draw unless you have to which translates to must shoot. I said that if I draw I must and will shoot. Many thought I was an idiot . In fact many locals have similar laws.

It's actually intended to prevent escalation. Think what would happen if a gun was draw in every road rage incident. We would get rid of the crappie drivers but a lot folks would end up in jail.

Last edited by Minorcan; May 4, 2017 at 06:56 AM.
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Old May 4, 2017, 06:40 AM   #4
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In 99+% of the times a gun is used in self defense it is not fired, and that holds true for police as well. I think people who preach that "you must shoot if you draw" greatly simplify the law, and dangerously so.
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Old May 4, 2017, 06:54 AM   #5
Armed_Chicagoan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minorcan
I said that if I draw I must and will shoot.
Even if the threat ends while you're drawing? The BG sees your gun and turns around and runs, or lays down, you shoot anyway?

eta: this clerk should be charged with brandishing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKRqCHb0szc

Last edited by Armed_Chicagoan; May 4, 2017 at 06:59 AM.
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Old May 4, 2017, 07:05 AM   #6
Minorcan
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No, I don't draw unless my life is in eminent danger and I have to. Isn't the first rule of gun safety don't point a gun at anything you don't mean to destroy? I won't draw unless there is no other option.
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Old May 4, 2017, 07:07 AM   #7
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If someone is drawing on me I must believe my life is in immediate danger, I will draw and fire if I can.
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Old May 4, 2017, 07:15 AM   #8
steve4102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minorcan
Don't draw unless you have to which translates to must shoot. I said that if I draw I must and will shoot.
Lemmy get this straight.

Let say you are walking your dog and are carrying your firearm. A BG with a knife approaches and demands your wallet. Instead of reaching for your wallet, you reach for your firearm. You draw your firearm, as you draw the BG see that he is in deep trouble and turns to run away. As he retreats you feel obligated and required under the law to fire and shoot him in the back?
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Old May 4, 2017, 07:38 AM   #9
Bartholomew Roberts
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Just a quick glance; but it looks as though Oklahoma only has the common-law defense of justification for pointing a firearm. That defense is basically "I broke the law but I had to."

ETA: Just noticed the current statute has "without lawful cause" as a qualifier. In terms of changes in the law, I'm having a hard time figuring out the specific situation where the new language is going to make a difference.

I don't know that the new statute is necessary; but I think it is a valuable and important clarification of the existing statute. The problem with common-law defenses is uneven application in different situations and jurisdictions. You might get away with it in Love County but get convicted on the same set of facts in Rogers County. I also wouldn't want to rely on it in a high-profile (Zimmerman) case with a lot of negative media attention. A statutory defense helps even that out a bit I think.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; May 4, 2017 at 07:55 AM.
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Old May 4, 2017, 07:45 AM   #10
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The bill is not needed. Current OK law is specific. i can't remember any case where a person has been charged with brandishing in a genuine self defense situation in OK.

Quote:
What is Brandishing?

The word “brandish” means to wave or shake in anger. Under the law, brandishing a firearm means displaying a weapon in such a way as to threaten or intimidate another person.

This means that you cannot:
- Point a loaded or unloaded firearm at another person (except in cases of self defense)
- Disturb the peace by threatening another person with a firearm
http://www.edgecriminaldefense.com/b...noklahoma.html

From OK Self Defense Act:

Quote:
TITLE 21 § 1279 MISDEMEANOR POINTING A FIREARM

Except for an act of self-defense, it shall be unlawful for any person to point any pistol or any other deadly weapon whether loaded or not, at any other person or persons. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall, upon conviction, be guilty of a misdemeanor punishable as provided in Section 1280 of this title.

Any person convicted of violating the provisions of this section after having been issued a handgun license pursuant to the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act may be subject to an administrative violation as provided in Section 1280 of this title.

Last edited by thallub; May 4, 2017 at 07:55 AM.
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Old May 4, 2017, 08:08 AM   #11
Bartholomew Roberts
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Thallub, you are quoting 21 O.S. 1279 involving MISDEMEANOR pointing of a firearm. The law being changed is 21 O.S. 1289.16 involving FELONY pointing of a firearm. The felony statute language is older and requires specific intent. The proposed law would update the felony statute to mirror the misdemeanor language - which is probably a good idea since the current difference would allow a court to argue the legislature drafted the misdemeanor statute differently intentionally and then insert their own reasoning as to why the felony language is different.

Alhough interestingly, it looks like you can argue that bad muzzle discipline is a misdemeanor crime in Oklahoma even if negligently done.
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Old May 4, 2017, 08:24 AM   #12
jnichols2
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I was planning a reply, but it looks like steve4102 was first. But let me add...

We are talking about three saperate actions, at slightly separate times.
For each action, at each EXACT time, you BETTER be in fear for your life or great bodily harm.

1. A BG is coming toward you with a knife. You DRAW your weapon.
You were in fear for your life or great bodily harm.

2. You start to point your weapon.
You are still in fear for your life or great bodily harm.

3. The perp drops the knife and turns to flee.
THE THREAT HAS ENDED. DO NOT SHOOT.
The perp's actions have ended both the threat, and your self defense right.

You should incurr no legal problems from 1. and 2. as you were in fear for your life or great bodily harm at the exact time you were acting.

As for 3., the threat no longer exists, and you would be legally wrong to fire.

All of this happened in a split second. You must be able to think, decide, and act just as quickly. It's part of the responsibility of carrying a gun.

You should also be able to communicate the reason you did not shoot in a court of law.

Last edited by jnichols2; May 4, 2017 at 08:29 AM.
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Old May 4, 2017, 09:24 AM   #13
thallub
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Quote:
The law being changed is 21 O.S. 1289.16 involving FELONY pointing of a firearm.
Thanks, my bad.
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Old May 4, 2017, 09:37 AM   #14
Lohman446
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Quote:
1. A BG is coming toward you with a knife. You DRAW your weapon.
You were in fear for your life or great bodily harm.

2. You start to point your weapon.
You are still in fear for your life or great bodily harm.

3. The perp drops the knife and turns to flee.
THE THREAT HAS ENDED. DO NOT SHOOT.
The perp's actions have ended both the threat, and your self defense right.

You should incurr no legal problems from 1. and 2. as you were in fear for your life or great bodily harm at the exact time you were acting.

As for 3., the threat no longer exists, and you would be legally wrong to fire.

All of this happened in a split second. You must be able to think, decide, and act just as quickly. It's part of the responsibility of carrying a gun.

You should also be able to communicate the reason you did not shoot in a court of law.
I think this sums it up well. In MI we were taught that the justification for drawing a firearm was the same level as that for actually firing the shot. MI law specifies deadly force may be used to prevent forcible sexual penetration, kidnapping, or severe bodily harm as judged be the hypothetical "reasonable" individual. If you are not in danger of those things you have no justification to draw your firearm.

As the above quote illustrates you may only use the level of force required to prevent those things. If the threat stops at blandishment then you may not shoot because you may only justify your actions based on a current and ongoing threat.
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Old May 4, 2017, 10:29 AM   #15
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Quote:
I said that if I draw I must and will shoot. Many thought I was an idiot .
I agree. You're an idiot.

THREE little words change an idiotic blanket statement into sound advice.

"be prepared to.."

I don't know if its a case of people only hearing what they want to, or something else, but NO COMPETENT authority will teach "if you draw you must shoot". What they teach is "if you draw, you must be prepared to shoot".

Pistols are not samurai swords, ghurka knives or some other blade that must be blooded if drawn before being resheathed, or its dishonor. Not even close.

The point here is a flat statement "if I draw I must shoot /will shoot" is a simplification that makes you sound simple minded. Literally.

IF the threat ends, you don't get to shoot. Period. Drawn weapon or not.

Likewise, if you have shot, and the bad guy is down, you don't get to put a "finisher" round into the back of his head, no matter how appealing the thought might be, its NOT LEGAL.

As others have said, the threat could end the instant your gun is drawn. If this happens, you cannot legally shoot. "I'm sorry, your Honor, but I had to shoot him, because I drew my gun" is NOT going to be a valid defense in court.

And a public statement that "if I draw, I will shoot" could just be what gets you into court charged with ADW or even homicide, as it shows "premeditation".

Words DO matter, and expect everything you ever said on the internet, anywhere, to become a matter of public record, and used against you in court, if it comes to that.
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Old May 4, 2017, 10:31 AM   #16
natman
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Quote:
"When you go and get your [concealed carry] license, that instructor tells you that you don't bring your gun out, you don't show your gun, you don't intimidate somebody with your gun," said Slaughterville Rep. Bobby Cleveland. "If you bring it out, you have to shoot."
The first part is right on. It's this part that's twisted: "If you bring it out, you have to shoot."

You shouldn't bring the gun out unless you would be justified in shooting. That doesn't mean you have to.
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Old May 4, 2017, 11:14 AM   #17
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Many defensive uses of firearms end in no shots fired.

If you draw and the BG runs away or surrenders that's just fine and dandy the gun did it's job without hurting anyone.

In such cases though still call 911.. there have been cases where muggers have ran away and called 911 to claim they're the victim, The police will usually treat the first one to call 911 as the victim.

You most definitely should be prepared to shoot if you do draw.
But I've drawn twice discreetly without pointing it at anyone.

Both time was in the car and drawing while sitting down is a bit more difficult (in most cases, cross draw / shoulder holster work best)

The 1st one was with my mom, She wanted to go with her to the ATM late at night, while we was there a man came from around the building wearing a ski mask.

What got my attention was 1 it was not really cold out, ski mask seemed overdone..
and 2 the guy came from the far side of the bank which is odd because it meant he had to walk rather then just park 15-20 feet from the ATM up front.

Luckily nothing came of it, no one ever seen the gun.. live goes on.


2nd case was also in the car with a friend, I was a passenger, we was at a red light and the car in front of us a man got out ran the drivers side of our car and started yanking on the door handle and beating on the glass saying "open up!".
Thank god for auto locking doors.

My first instinct was carjacking?
So I drew, kept it low and out of sight, I told the man to go back to his car and called 911, but if he broke in he was going to get it.

We couldn't pull off as there wasn't enough room and car's behind us as well.
After a minute I realized what was going on he fell to the ground.. the guy was drunk.
Mean while traffic is now stopped on both sides of the street, he's lucky he didn't get ran over.. it took like 5mins to get someone on 911 because they kept transferring me.. turns out we was on the jurisdictional boundary and they couldn't decided who should answer.

By the time I finally got the right one on the line his buddies in the car picked him up and got him back inside and took off.

No one seen the gun, I did'nt point it at anyone.. even my friend who was driving did'nt realize I had drew.. but If I needed it I was ready.

I have no regrets how I handled it.
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Old May 4, 2017, 11:32 AM   #18
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More pertinent to the situation may be reporting the incident.
Recently criminals have been known to immediately call the
authorities, and lie to them about what just transpired.

When the police show up, they are responding only to the
criminal's call, if you did not call them, also. As such, they
may be inclined to take the criminal at their word, more
readily. If someone is with you, you should both all call the
police, separately, to provide a numeric advantage.
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Old May 4, 2017, 03:06 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natman
You shouldn't bring the gun out unless you would be justified in shooting. That doesn't mean you have to.
Exactly.
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Old May 4, 2017, 03:44 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danoobie
More pertinent to the situation may be reporting the incident.
Recently criminals have been known to immediately call the
authorities, and lie to them about what just transpired.

When the police show up, they are responding only to the
criminal's call, if you did not call them, also. As such, they
may be inclined to take the criminal at their word, more
readily.
That sounds rather far-fetched to me. Most crooks try not to attract attention to themselves.

Care to share your source for this information?
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Old May 4, 2017, 04:03 PM   #21
Evan Thomas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carguychris
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danoobie
More pertinent to the situation may be reporting the incident.
Recently criminals have been known to immediately call the
authorities, and lie to them about what just transpired.

When the police show up, they are responding only to the
criminal's call, if you did not call them, also. As such, they
may be inclined to take the criminal at their word, more
readily.
That sounds rather far-fetched to me. Most crooks try not to attract attention to themselves.

Care to share your source for this information?
The underlying problem here is that you're both assuming that the world can be neatly divided into "good guys" and "criminals," and that police should always be able to tell the difference. But if one draws their gun in, say, a road rage incident or some other altercation, it's likely to be their word against that of the other party. In such cases, the cops may well see the person who called the police first as the likely "victim." This does suggest that reporting any incident should always be a priority.

But the issue of reporting is already a little off-topic here.
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Old May 4, 2017, 04:25 PM   #22
Glenn E. Meyer
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Here's a story about the 911 calls and the confusion that occurs when you are the guy or gal pointing the gun.

https://www.personaldefensenetwork.c...ritan-attempt/
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Old May 4, 2017, 04:34 PM   #23
Don P
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Quote:
In Florida brandishing a firearm can be agravated assault with a deadly weapon is a felony and has a minimum three year sentence. Don't draw unless you have to which translates to must shoot. I said that if I draw I must and will shoot. Many thought I was an idiot
My emphasis added to the quote. Pure and simple poppy-cock, horse fertilizer. As stated earlier, you draw and the situation deescalates rapidly (attacker turns and runs) and you have to shoot him because you drew your gun. You best re-read the Florida statutes 790.06 or better yet consult with a criminal attorney that handles firearm related cases. I concur with your last sentence.
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Old May 4, 2017, 06:15 PM   #24
thallub
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Can't understand where the "you must shoot if your draw your gun" nonsense came from. Don't recall hearing that 25-30 years ago.

Maybe it's an extension of the "if I draw my knife it must bring blood thing".
Then the guy nicks a finger, wipes off the blade and puts the knife away.
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Old May 4, 2017, 08:35 PM   #25
Minorcan
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Let me clarify, I will not draw unless I am certain there is no other way to prevent certain injury or death. Under those circumstances firing is justified and I will because I have no other choice. I will not draw unless there is no other option. If I draw under any other condition then I am not justified so I shouldn't have drawn. If I do then under Florida law could be charged with a felony and imprisoned thus loosing my tight to carry. I will not draw unnecessarily. By not drawing I get to retain my rights.
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