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August 17, 2016, 08:49 PM | #1 |
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Old Supreme Court case about Butter vs Margarine
It's gun related, I promise.
I was listening to a podcast about odd history and they were talking about the "Margarine wars." They briefly talked about some of the Supreme Court cases that came out of states banning margarine. One of them was called Shallenburger(maybe spelled wrong) V. Pennsylvania that happened in the late 1890's. I can't find the case online but the basic point was that a state can not ban a regular item(margarine) that the federal government taxes. Anyone know how/where to find it? Could this apply to "assault" weapons? Is this ruling overturned?
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August 17, 2016, 10:21 PM | #2 |
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Sounds like the SCOTUS ruled for the State (and against margarine):
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/127/678/ |
August 18, 2016, 12:22 AM | #3 |
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The podcast brought up the Powell case and actually made fun of the argument that the 14th applied to the margarine. I was bringing up a different case.
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August 18, 2016, 01:48 AM | #4 |
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What was the podcast, and who was participating?
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August 18, 2016, 03:30 AM | #5 |
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Another SCOTUS case that pretty much set up the federal government regulatory mess we live with today:
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-m...eard-of-2011-8 http://www.heritage.org/initiatives/...kard-v-filburn The federal government took the ruling and ran with it. The gun related issue in the last half of the article. |
August 18, 2016, 04:22 AM | #6 | |
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Quote:
And if we can't identify the case the OP is asking about soon. I'm going to just close the thread.
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August 18, 2016, 04:45 AM | #7 | ||
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Quote:
Powell v. Pennsylvania, 127 U.S. 678 (1888) Ruling: Quote:
The 14th was kind of weak in the way that it allowed rights to be legislated away back in those days. Since Flores this has been much less of an issue. States still ban stuff in commerce all the time with very little reason and challenge. |
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August 18, 2016, 06:01 AM | #8 | |
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August 18, 2016, 06:17 AM | #9 |
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ok, it sure sounded like it.
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August 18, 2016, 07:27 AM | #10 |
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The 80 year margarine wars, a dark time in American history
It seems there were some interstate commerce issues regarding bans with exemptions for domestic producers that made it to SCOTUS. Most of the other cases I see have more to do with truth in advertising and trade secrets. There are a surprising number of cases involving the production/sale/distribution of Margarine. Last edited by johnwilliamson062; August 18, 2016 at 07:42 AM. |
August 18, 2016, 07:59 AM | #11 |
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Chex, I'm wondering whether the panel you heard referenced Plumley v. Massachusetts, 155 U.S. 461 (1894). Looks as if MA was allowed not ban the colored stuff, but not the uncolored.
Any case that refers to oleomargarine is likely to reflect a pre-FDR view of one's rights in the market and would likely not be an excellent basis for overturning a firearms restriction.
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http://www.npboards.com/index.php Last edited by zukiphile; August 18, 2016 at 08:37 AM. |
August 18, 2016, 08:03 AM | #12 |
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We need the podcast link...
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August 18, 2016, 09:34 AM | #13 | |
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In fact, we didn't even call it "margarine." We called it "oleo." |
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August 18, 2016, 10:53 AM | #14 |
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Here is the podcast link
http://www.missedinhistory.com/podca...r-v-margarine/ It happens around the 29 minute mark. And the case is called shallenburger vs pennsylvania
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August 18, 2016, 11:08 AM | #15 |
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The case is Schollenberger v Pennsylvania (1898)
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August 18, 2016, 11:16 AM | #16 | |
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The FDR metric is approximate. It's true that the NIRA was found unconstitutional after FDR was elected, but that era marks a shift in how the courts came to view federal power. My sense is that the term "oleomargarine" in a case would indicate that the case pre-dates that shift. AB, if it helps illustrate the march of time I offer this jarring tale: My wife made a quip about a "return" key on a computer keyboard, but my 10 year old and 14 year old looked confused. I had to remind her that neither of them had likely ever seen a typewriter with a return lever, so the idea of a "return" key was foreign to them.
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http://www.npboards.com/index.php Last edited by zukiphile; August 18, 2016 at 11:22 AM. |
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August 18, 2016, 01:10 PM | #17 |
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Thanks natman, I was spelling it wrong that's why I couldn't find it. Now that we have it, could it apply now? I have no real legal training but when I heard about the case I thought of the AW bans in some states, considering that the feds tax guns.
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August 18, 2016, 02:13 PM | #18 |
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I well remember eating that oleaginous stuff in the 1950's. My parents wouldn't serve it, they were farm kids and knew what real butter tasted like.
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August 18, 2016, 05:08 PM | #19 | |
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Chatting over lunch, margarine came up. Ron stated quite forcefully that Drew Chemical made it, that it was basically an industrial byproduct, and that now he knew what was in it he'd never allow it in his house. I accepted that as words to live by. Now ... with thread drift accounted for, I'm very interested to find out if the resident legal scholars think this case could provide any useful precedent for firearms bans. |
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August 18, 2016, 08:25 PM | #20 |
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I didnt see the actual opinion at the link above.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...=6,36&as_vis=1 I think the day was lost until they brought up the butterines. |
August 18, 2016, 08:38 PM | #21 | ||
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This part may be of possible interest:
Quote:
Quote:
"High (or "large") capacity" magazines? |
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August 18, 2016, 08:50 PM | #22 | |
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Quote:
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August 19, 2016, 08:36 AM | #23 | |
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The issue involved in the margarine cases is whether a state is free to engage in bans where Congress has already regulated a matter. Congress is given authority to regulate interstate commerce by the interstate commerce clause in the Constitution. This ability of congressional regulation to displace state regulation is why one's employment retirement benefits are federally regulated; Congress passed ERISA. It is beyond any reasonable argument that Congress has regulated the interstate sale of firearms. To invalidate a state regulation for conflict with a federal regulation, you would want that state regulation to be in conflict with the federal regulation. If Missouri were to require every household to be equipped with one fully automatic rifle and were to specifically prohibit any kind of background check on any member of the household, you would have a very clear conflict in an area on which Congress had already spoken. State regulations with which I am familiar appear to focus on use and possession, transfer of stolen goods, or sales to felons. That is not precisely the same matter as taxation or transfer amongst and by federal licensees. It is true that federal regulation does not prohibit, for instance, 30 round rifle magazines, and also that some states have prohibited sales of those same magazines. That gives rise to the issue of whether there is any conflict between the laws, or whether that state is just regulating around the edges of a federal matter and within the confines of its legitimate police power. The police power of a state is vast and wide, much more robust and requiring less justification than the relatively modest police powers of the federal government. Where state makes a case for a peripheral firearms regulation on the basis of its exercise of police power it may be able to pull the issue away from the sort of commercial considerations that dominate the margarine cases. Even as a matter of interstate commerce, the scope of federal regulation then is not what it is now. We now have a labyrinth of federal food and food labeling regulation that is so far beyond the issue of protecting consumers from "fake butter" that those margarine cases are unlikely to be seen as a strong precedent. That doesn't even get to the sort of visceral antagonism one would expect from some numbers of the judiciary who would observe that margarine does not "spray bullets" or kill cops (at least directly and immediately), or that an individual right to arms is simply different and inferior.
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August 19, 2016, 08:48 AM | #24 | |
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August 19, 2016, 09:11 AM | #25 |
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The other nontrivial problem with relying on congressional regulation as a protection of one's right to buy a specific sort of arm is that the protection it self can be erased by an act of Congress.
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