Why am I being drawn to the 410?

[hartcreek]

If you are weak from age or arthritus get a 20 gage instead and if you have to use it for HD you might actually hit them.

[darkgael]

.410 Fun
I bought a single-shot H & R .410 a year ago, and have had wonderful fun with it. A wide variety of brass will chamber in it - .45lc, .444 Marlin, .303, .30 - 30 and some others I have yet to try... folks like to sneer at it as a defense gun, but I think 4 ( 00 ) Buck pellets would dissuade almost anyone, especially if followed by 2 or three more rounds...plus it is a light, handy package.

If you like casting and loading, the .410 offers you a lot of options... I love touching off a .444 Marlin load of black powder... get the experience without having to deal with often temperamental muzzle-loaders....

Please, please, please......tell me that you are kidding.
Tell me that you are not shooting .452"/.429" bullets down a .410" bore and thinking that it is ok.
Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should.

[SHR970]

Dreaming100 straight wrote:

SHR970, There may be unique circumstances where someone is better off with a .410 for defense, but I would think in those situations they would be best off with a pistol.

Statistics show a much better percentage of hits with a long gun vs. hand gun. So a 9mm / 40/ whatever with 1/2 the energy beats a 410 with 44 mag / 30 carbine power and multiple wound tracks?

Multiple Wound Tracs: True, a piece of 00 travelling at the same FPS is going to penetrate heavy clothing just as well whether it is shot out of a 12 or a .410, but even if they are just as shallow, the additional wound tracts of the 12 are likely to more quickly end a threat.

Not in dispute. But for those who don't have / can't handle a 12 gauge, a 410 is not the pop gun many ascribe it as. Re read my earlier post please.

Felt Recoil/Follow Up Shots: While up to a point you can fire an equivalent load of buck from a .410, the weight of a 12 will help to tame the recoil and thereby enable one to get off faster follow up shots. For that reason some choose to use reduced recoil 00 buck.

Again re read my earlier post. Same platform for same platform a 410 will generally have less felt recoil. Reduced recoil (aka 1100 fps buck out of a 12 gauge) is akin to the same load in a 410. Run the math on same make model of guns in the same configuration and you'll find the 410 is on par or generally less free recoil than the 12.

Availability of Ammo: It is much easier to find 12 gauge than .410.

At the store, no dispute here. On line??? I can get what I want.

Downloading 12 Gauge One thing about going with a 12 gauge is those hulls can be loaded so as to emulate sub-gauges. For instance, I regularly reload my shells with one ounce of shot ( emulating a 16 gauge) and I am beginning to load 7/8 ounces of shot (20 gauge), while some shooters are going to a wad that allows them to reload there 12 hulls with 3/4 ounces (28 gauge).

Straw man argument. Refer to your posts above and do you load 3/4 oz self defense loads for your 12 gauge?

Go with your 18 pellets if you want, but 9 has been proven to get the job done.

Re read my post on this point vis a vis your point about going with 1/2 as much. Now you are trying to obfuscate the situation.

If it doesn't, I can drop some one ounce slugs in my 12. This is an example of what I meant when I said "up to a point". There is no reason to overwhelm the 12 gauge with 18 pellet ammo and all the attendant recoil when the standard 9 gets the job done. Any marginal advantage from the increased number of wound tracts is outweighed by increased felt recoil and reduction in follow up shots.

Thank you for making my point and negating your own in the second quote.

Tell us this. If a .410 gets the job done as well as a 12, what law enforcement agency equips members with a .410?

Strawman argument again. Why are so many departments going away from the 12 gauge and going to the M14 / M4? We are talking home defense, not in the line of duty here. My point is and was the 410 is not "totally inadequate" for HD as many believe. But if you want to go with the LEO argument, see Jim Cirillo's opinion on the 30 carbine loaded with proper ammo and his squads use of same in NYC for LE work. We are talking about the same energy levels here and both calibers are "disdained" for their lack of stopping power.

[SHR970]

Doyle wrote: If you REALLY insist on using a .410 as a SD weapon then at least reduce some of the "pattern" handicap and use Federal Personal Defense #4 Buck loads.

At typical household distances it doesn't matter the gauge or choke. You have the same pattern handicap. You are either on target or not. I would rather have the advantage of the weight and penetration of 00 or 000 Buck vs. #4.

[SHR970]

hartcreek wrote:If you are weak from age or arthritus get a 20 gage instead and if you have to use it for HD you might actually hit them.

I have comparable 12 / 20 / and 410 in O/U. 12 and 20 in pump. Please tell me / us how a 20 might "hit them" where a 410 won't? How about having to hold a weapon on some one until your friendly law enforcement official makes it to the scene? In some places, you will be waiting 45 minutes.

It is all a very personal balancing act.

[SHR970]

As I said before, I have many choices, but I would not feel under gunned or naked with my O/U 410 in a HD situation.

[Dreaming100Straight]

Whatever you say, SHR

[B.L.E.]

As far as being suitable for HD, you know you don't have to kill an intruder to stop him from what he's doing. Like Wild Bill Hickok was alleged to claim about being armed with .36 caliber cap and ball revolvers, "I don't need to kill them, I only need to make them sit down and stop shooting at me."

There was an actual case in the city where I live where a home intruder was shot once through the door he was trying to break down with a .22 rifle. He stopped trying to break down the door and was arrested later when he showed up at the emergency room for treatment. Anyway, the gun stopped the intruder.

I really think we are overthinking home defense rounds, it's not deer hunting where we want to make a clean and humane kill, we just want to stop the bad guys from what they are doing.
Most home defense situations don't even involve firing the gun, most intruders will run away or stop if they just see the gun pointed at them.

[BumbleBug]

Originally Posted by SHR970

Because you like a challenge!

Without being facetious that's the right answer!

I'll agree the low recoiling .410 is the wrong gun to get a youth started bird hunting just because it doesn't hurt. A kid would need a lot of encouragement! For HD, any shotgun is a scary deterrent!

Years back I use to shoot a lot of doves here in Texas. I mean a LOT, like a daily limit every Sat & Sun of the season. My dad, brother & I used 12ga guns & kept the Pacific reloader working overtime during the week!..LOL

Then I bought a Remington 1100 .410 after seeing someone shooting doves with one. I bought a MEC loader & cranked out 3" .410's with #6 shot. I learned to love shooting doves with that full-sized, but light weight auto! Not to mention that a whole box of shells fit in your pocket. Those were the good ol' days!

...bug

[Cheapshooter]

As a personal update by the OP, I didn't buy the Mosberg they had. Just didn't like the feel of it. It, and another one they had are gone. But I'm not giving up on finding a Stevens 59a in really good condition so I can have an example of my first shotgun. I also will still be watching for maybe another pump if the right one, at the right price shows up. That is a big advantage of wanting, not needing.

[Dreaming100Straight]

As far as being suitable for HD, you know you don't have to kill an intruder to stop him from what he's doing. Like Wild Bill Hickok was alleged to claim about being armed with .36 caliber cap and ball revolvers, "I don't need to kill them, I only need to make them sit down and stop shooting at me."

There was an actual case in the city where I live where a home intruder was shot once through the door he was trying to break down with a .22 rifle. He stopped trying to break down the door and was arrested later when he showed up at the emergency room for treatment. Anyway, the gun stopped the intruder.

I really think we are overthinking home defense rounds, it's not deer hunting where we want to make a clean and humane kill, we just want to stop the bad guys from what they are doing.
Most home defense situations don't even involve firing the gun, most intruders will run away or stop if they just see the gun pointed at them.

There is always anecdotal evidence to prove that most everything is possible. For my money, I want a gun capable of getting the job done if an intruder doesn't run. Don't count on a .22 or the like stopping a threat.

[lamarw]

A few years ago, I picked up a H&R Model 98 Topper Deluxe for forty bucks. It is a single shot and the one with the black stock and chrome frame.
It needed a lot of work but turned out to be a sweet looking thing. I believe it was seldom shot but neglected. It was far more of a restoration than a clean-up.

Recently, I ask my spouse to bid on a Savage Model 67 Series E pump at a local auction. I mentioned not to bid over $125.00. Well, she went $155.00. I just grinned and started cleaning it up.

I would recommend a Mec reloader in .410. It will help cut down the price of shooting.