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Old September 12, 2020, 02:05 PM   #26
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Again, and this time with imphasis, what is a registered rifle?
Unless it's under NFA with a tax stamp.
The NFA doesn't have anything to do with it, directly. Every firearm receiver manufactured by a licensed maker is "registered" with the Fed Govt at the time of manufacture. The class of registration determines the legal status of the gun, from that point on.


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What's a "registered rifle"? Any lower I have nought were called in as other, or receiver, and entered in the dealer's 4473 as such. There is no government "record" of them being either a rifle or pistol.
There is a govt record of them being either "rifle, pistol, or other /receiver". It is done by the factory when they are made, not by the dealer when you buy one. THAT record of you buying the gun (4473) is a completely different record and not the same as the initial classification registration done by the manufacturer.

Where this matters is the "Down the road" legal status of the part. NFA law prohibits certain builds unless done under NFA rules.

A receiver registered by the maker as "rifle" can only be a rifle, you can't legally turn it into a pistol outside of NFA rules. (SBR rules)

This is why AR lowers, intended to be sold as receivers, not completed firearms are registered as "receiver" or "other" when made, not as rifle or pistol. This allows them to be built into either configuration, legally.

It's a can of worms, the laws are twisty and tangled. The "registration" of the receiver (in this specific instance) is between the maker and the govt, and is done before the part ever leaves the factory.

The end user has no part in it. It is already a "done deal" before the item is ever sold at wholesale or retail.
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Old September 12, 2020, 03:20 PM   #27
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It should probably be noted that it is ok to make an AR pistol into a rifle without following NFA protocol but it is NOT ok to make an AR rifle into a pistol without following NFA protocol.

Of course, then there are State laws.
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Old September 12, 2020, 04:01 PM   #28
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Every firearm receiver manufactured by a licensed maker is "registered" with the Fed Govt at the time of manufacture. The class of registration determines the legal status of the gun, from that point on.
Quote the law.
I, nor anybody I know have ever been asked if an AR lower is going to be use for a rifle or handgun, none.
Nothing is marked on the receiver, or the box about what it can be used for. No paperwork included referring to how it is to be used either. I, and a lot of dealers selling AR lowers would sure like to see that section and quote from the BATF.
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Old September 12, 2020, 04:18 PM   #29
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Jeff informed me that the first consideration is the lower receiver. “Stripped receivers are transferred as ‘other’ versus long gun or handgun (Form 4473 designation),” he explained. “The other doesn’t become something until you attach a barrel and a stock or brace. Once a receiver has been a long gun (rifle), it cannot be built into a pistol without navigating the National Firearms Act.”
Still looking for more. But this is the first expert explanation I found from the head of SB Tactical.
Note, the receiver doesn't become anything until a barrel, upper or stock has been installed.
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Old September 12, 2020, 04:50 PM   #30
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Just read through the entire BATF form that manufacturers are required to submit every year. There is nothing about identifying frames as pistol or rifle. Just says they must be reported as "miscelanous" with a short description.Does not say it has to be described as pistol or rifle.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-...ction-firearms
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Old September 12, 2020, 04:56 PM   #31
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Once a receiver has been a long gun (rifle), it cannot be built into a pistol without navigating the National Firearms Act.”
Once again, not true. If your first build of the "other" multi cal receiver is in fact a pistol (I take pictures with the parts just to be on the safe side) you can subsequently use the same receiver for a rifle configuration--and go back to a pistol if you wish (keep those pistol parts on hand though).
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Old September 12, 2020, 04:58 PM   #32
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It should probably be noted that it is ok to make an AR pistol into a rifle without following NFA protocol but it is NOT ok to make an AR rifle into a pistol without following NFA protocol.

Of course, then there are State laws.
That's correct. but then again, If you built it on a receiver sold as "other", like the thermos that kerps hot hot, or cold, cold, How do it know?
Not saying you should, but unless you're doing a bunch of them for nefarious uses the BATF probably have much bigger fish to fry.
Plus, there's no reason to with all the lowers, parts,and kits around.
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Old September 13, 2020, 12:57 AM   #33
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Cheapshooter, true but no telling how far the guberment has come with that men who stare at goats program!
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Old September 13, 2020, 09:16 PM   #34
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Still waiting to see that US Code Title, Chapter, and Section that says manufacturers are required to "register" stripped receivers as rifle or pistol.
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Old September 13, 2020, 09:34 PM   #35
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As I read through 18 U.S. Code § 926.Rules and regulations I did find this note:
18 U.S. Code § 926.Rules and regulations
No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established.
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Old September 13, 2020, 10:25 PM   #36
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Good gravy...

Manufacturers are required to log each serialized receiver they make.
Those logs are provided or otherwise available to the FedGov.
Example:
All AR-556s Ruger ships out with a 16" or longer barrel and a rifle stock, has to be recorded as a rifle.

All AR-556s Ruger ships out with a barrel shorter than 16" and a pistol brace, has to be recorded as a handgun.

All AR-556s Ruger ships out without any upper receiver has to be recorded as a receiver.

I think what the other folks were trying to point out is: If you buy a Ruger AR-556 rifle, it was recorded as such by Ruger, and no matter what happens to it after leaving the factory, in the eyes of the FedGov, that receiver will always be a rifle.
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Old September 13, 2020, 11:11 PM   #37
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But as pointed out in 18 U.S. Code § 926.Rules and regulations,
"nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established."
So a "receiver" is not registered as a rifle, or a pistol.
In fact, according to this section of the law, nothing is "registered".
The previous post made it seem that a stripped AR lower (receiver) was required by the BATF to be registered as a rifle, pistol, or other at the time of manufacture.
My point is where does it say they are "registered" anywhere?
In fact, section 926 says they are not to be registered!
They go into the dealer's bound book as other, and the bound book isn't turned over to any government agency for registration.

Now, back to the OP
Sights or optics mean absolutely nothing in determining if a firearm is a rifle or pistol, period!
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Old September 13, 2020, 11:59 PM   #38
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I believe the confusion is a result of the multiple uses/definitions of words in English.

The listing of a receiver by the maker, at the time of manufacture is a register. Just as, in the old days, the book you signed at a hotel was the guest register.

It may not be automatically turned over the police or govt agency, but those people can see it, if they choose (during an investigation, etc.)

The maker's register or list, or book is not a registration as referenced here,
Quote:
But as pointed out in 18 U.S. Code § 926.Rules and regulations,
"nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established."
And, it is not the same as the FFL retail dealer's "bound book", which is also a register being a list of guns, but in no way the same as a list of gun owners purchases linking specific guns to specific people.

In English, if something is on a list, it is in a register, and by being in a register, it is considered registered. The act of putting it in a register is registration. SO, grammatically correct, but not always what is usually thought of when the subject is gun registration, which is linking a gun by ser# with its owner by name, address, etc..
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Old September 15, 2020, 03:37 PM   #39
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So they "record" the lowers when made. They also send in a report every year to the BATF showing how many they made, and sold, but numbers only not individual serial numbers for each.
But in the case of the many producers of lowers only, not complete guns, do they somehow tell the distributors, then individual dealers if the lower was recorded as rifle, pistol, or other?
My guess is no, and if you make sure the dealer enters it into their bound book as other the determination of rifle or pistol is made by what ever you use it for. So in that case the BATF has no idea of what it is, or was.
Now if you purchase a completed weapon, it's determined at the time of manufacture.
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Old September 15, 2020, 08:02 PM   #40
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Yes, they have to be legally transferred from maker to consumer and at each stop it's recorded as to firearm type by serial number.

Ruger transfers rifles, pistols and receivers to distributors... Distributors transfer those rifles, pistols and receivers to dealers, and Dealers transfer those rifles pistols and receivers to consumers.

How do they know which it is? It has been recorded by serial number at each stop between maker and consumer.

Any maker who produces lowers only will never record or transfer a serial numbered receiver as a rifle or pistol, because a lower is not a firearm of any type, since it lacks the ability to chamber and fire ammunition. It is ONLY a receiver.

The US code you cited above is about creating a registry of private ownership that would record a serial number/type with who bought it. The FedGov is not allowed to do such. That's the main reason when a dealer calls in a NICS check, they only provide the firearm type not the serial number, or even the manufacturer.
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Old September 15, 2020, 08:42 PM   #41
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So you can be certain that a stripped lower will have been recorded as "other" no matter who the manufacturer is?
As long as it has never been completed as a rifle or pistol.
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Old September 15, 2020, 10:43 PM   #42
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Certain? No.

Reasonably assured? Yes.

Consumers have no access to manufacturer's records, and in a legal sense, that's where the certainty lies. Record keeping mistakes along the way do not change the status of a receiver, so... buying a new lower (stripped or assembled), you can be reasonably certain it is indeed just a receiver, buying used, you're at the mercy of the seller's knowledge/integrity.
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Old September 15, 2020, 11:02 PM   #43
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Here's my little huckleberry in 300 BO. It shoots just fine without a stealth SBR conversion device fitted to the buffer tube. It also has no trouble determining it's gender, it knows it's a pistol.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_3475.jpg (190.7 KB, 35 views)
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Old September 16, 2020, 08:59 AM   #44
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It looks loud...
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Old September 16, 2020, 10:05 AM   #45
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It looks loud...
and proud. Actually, no worse than a regular 5.56 carbine IMO.
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Old September 16, 2020, 01:12 PM   #46
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Mine (SBR) isn't too bad without the Omega out front, but it sure is nice with it.

I'd post a pic but then this thread would get moved to the NFA forum.
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