Historically incorrect guns.

[dahermit]

I just finished watching "The World Wars" by the History Channel, via mail-to-my-home Netflix. I found it annoying and distracting that the dramatizations, WWI Germans were armed with WWII SMLE rifles...I could tell by the flat cocking piece. In some scenes the bolts on those .303 SMLE's were on the left (running the film backwards gives the illusion of different footage). Also, Instead of M1 Garands carried by Patton's soldiers on Sicily, they carried those same WWII .303 SMLE's.
For me such faux Pas in regard to the details about the guns reduces my enjoyment of such supposed "historical" films.

[griz]

I'm not that knowledgeable when it comes to military arms, but I seem to remember that Saving Private Ryan had some errors too. When it ends up annoying me is in cowboy movies and shows. Often set in the 1850 to 1870 period, it's common to see Colt SAAs (1873) and Winchester 1892s.

[Wyosmith]

Many movie producers don't know what is correct and don't care. The believe that the average viewer is not concerned and doesn't know either, so they just use what's available to them. It's annoying to those that like history and correct details, but 99% of the viewers could not tell you what years WW2 or the US Civil War was fought, can't tell you anything about the individual battles or why they are important and could not care less (total ignorance and apathy of their history is the largest reason the "left' can make inroads into our nation and destroy individual rights I might add)

look here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoUSx7RF-28

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26-c4lZLPZc

And these are not the exceptions, they are the rule.

We have all seen Civil war movies where the combatants are using Colt SAAs and Winchester lever actions.

Patton had the Germans using M48 Patton tanks and the US using Walkers.

To some degree I can understand the problem. Now, in the days of CGI, the excuses for such lack of accuracy is dwindling, but when Patton was made, original running German Panzers and even M4 Sherman, Grant and Lee tanks were very very rare.
As far as small arms go, the excuse is not as valid. To some extent it may be forgiven, but any gun shown up close and with details that can be seen should at least be a good plastic molded replica of the real deal in my opinion, but I am like you guys, knowing what I am seeing for the most part. Most people don't.

The large majority of TV and movie watchers would not know the difference between an SMLE, a Gras or a Mauser. The large majority of them can't tell you the difference between a flintlock and cap-lock and don't know what periods of time either one was common.

[T. O'Heir]

"...and don't care...viewers could not tell you..." It's a lot about that but there's also the fact that since Stembridges closed finding W.W. I vintage stuff isn't easy.
Trapdoor Springfields have been substituted for muzzle loaders for eons too. There's very little history on the History Channel in the first place.
"...when Patton was made..." Yep. No 88mm pretend Tiger's gun would do what they did to Savalas' turret and have anybody survive either though. Something about 'poetic licence'.
"...plastic molded replica..." Used extensively in The Longest Day, The Big Red One and other big budget movies. There just weren't enough M1's, et al to go around. Nearly all of 'em didn't need to go bang either.
"...cowboy movies and shows. Often set in the 1850..." Cattle drive movies could be set in the 1850s, but not the rest of 'em. The American "Wild West" was really only about 25 or so years between 1865ish and 1890. The Wounded Knee Massacre occurred on December 29, 1890.
I still want one of Roy's SAAs that doesn't need reloading too. snicker.
And if you live in the U.S.A, ya'll don't speak English. Ya'll speak American. Isn't the same. snicker.

[Jim Watson]

And we spell the contraction for "you all" as "y'all", too. The apostrophe goes where letters are omitted. Otherwise it ain't right.

The old film at the Shiloh battlefield visitor center was a bad case of anachronistic guns, but the producers working with what was available knew enough to put muskets in the front rank, Trapdoors in the second, and odds and ends including bolt actions farther back.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Wyosmith

look here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoUSx7RF-28

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26-c4lZLPZc

And these are not the exceptions, they are the rule.

We had a war in 1812?

Nobody ever tells me nuthin'!

[SIGSHR]

I'm still looking for one of those left handed M1893 Mausers the Spanish troops use in Rough Riders.

[dahermit]

Originally Posted by SIGSHR

I'm still looking for one of those left handed M1893 Mausers the Spanish troops use in Rough Riders.

I saw a few left handed .303 SMLE's in "The World Wars". But, the technique of running the film footage from the back is common enough...it gives the illusion of completely different footage.

[Dfariswheel]

In one of the series on "The History Channel"?? They had several scenes of Germans in the trenches shooting Lee-Enfield's and 98 Mauser's, with some of the rifles having the bolt on the left side.

However, this was not the usual reversed film, some of the rifles really had the bolt handle on the wrong side, others had it on the right side, all in the same scene.
I'm not certain how prop rifles could be so badly made that they made the props backward.

There's been some really outrageous mistakes made on cable TV historical shows the last 10 years or so. One reason is that many of the shows are made in England and it seems no one there knows anything about firearms anymore.
Even their supposed experts say stupid things.

Some of the things I've seen in just the last year or two........

Adolph Hitler in the trenches shaving his mustache down with a WWII British commando knife.

Russian 1918 commie revolutionaries armed with new looking Lee-Enfield rifles.

German soldiers shooting at Hitler during the beer hall revolt with Lee-Enfield's.

American WWII soldiers equipped with British web gear and canteens.

American paratroopers wearing obvious modern work boots.

M1 Rifles, Carbines, and Thompson guns that are blazing away but the bolts are not moving.

George Patton during WWI on the back of a WWII era tank wearing a pearl handled Colt SAA jammed into a Model 1916 .45 auto hip holster.

1913 Patton standing in a car chasing Mexican's on horses and firing a WWII machine gun at them...... at about 20 feet and not hitting them.

American soldiers in WWII wearing obviously plastic helmets that are WAY smaller then real helmets.

A very obviously British actor playing American paratrooper Richard Winters, who's wearing his helmet on the back of his head.

American paratroopers tossing British Mills bombs instead of US Pineapple grenades.

American soldiers using M1 Carbines that are ludicrously obvious toys not even close to a real M1 Carbine.

This isn't new, in the movie "Patton" the Germans are viewing film of American generals coming ashore in Sicily. General Bradly is carrying a British #4 Lee Enfield.

It's fun to watch old movies to spot the mistakes.
Among the best, Roman soldiers wearing sneakers and wrist watches.
In the original "Shane" as Shane is riding up to the squatters ranch there's a pickup truck tooling along in the distance.

In Netflix's "The Highwaymen" as Keven Costner is shooting at bottles the kid is tossing, there's a jet contrail overhead.
In the small town gun store Costner is looking at guns in a catalog while discussing the rifle on the wall.
The rifle in the catalog is a WWII German semi-auto rifle.
He's also stating that a rifle can fire a bullet at over 8,000 feet per second.

[Scorch]

A few (very few) movie producers try to make historically accurate movies. Many are just story tellers. and they want to tell a story, whether it's accurate or not. They have money given to them by people who don't care about the details that just want the movie makers produce a movie that tells a story that they like. And since they don't care if it is accurate, they don't care if the message is accurate either. Remember the Alamo! The USA won WW2! Wild West gunslingers doing quick-draw! Oswald killed Kennedy! Et cetera.

[rickyrick]

I spotted a Mini14 in a WW2 documentary a few years ago. Can’t remember which documentary it was, but I clearly saw the Mini14.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Watch any show with naval vessels or aircraft and you will be astounded at the stupidity. Saw a navy show that said a Seawolf sub was to be feared as its cruise missile had a range of three miles. Wow. Though I mis - heard , so I reran it with CC on. Nope.

A 15 inch twin turrent was represented by a quadruple 14 inch turret. Need I go on.

[Jim Watson]

I had an old Gun Digest article on movie guns.
Westerns being popular at the time, there were lots of DA revolvers with dummy ejector rod housings for actors who could not be bothered to learn the SAA draw. There was even one with the butt reshaped to SAA "plowhandle," you had to look sharp to see the trigger position.
There were Colts with webs added under the barrel to look like Remingtons.

The Winchester 92 with receiver brass plated and foreend removed to resemble a Henry was common. Trapdoor Springfields were cheap and were mocked up to look like muzzleloaders, even with dummy flintlock cock and frizzen.

There were "guns" beside the camera, too. They were large bore air guns firing ball bearings to break windows, capsules of dust "dance dude, dance", and capsules of "blood."
There was even one with a square barrel that shot a "throwing knife" with a blade about an inch long. The knife wielder would throw his knife in an unobvious safe direction, as the stubby air gun projectile knife imbedded in a board under the victim's shirt.

[Double Naught Spy]

I have a buddy that is a bit of a tire nut. It makes him mad to see WWII films showing Jeeps with the wrong tires.

As I keep telling him, unless it is a documentary on Jeep tires or that the tires somehow play a key role in the actual story line, don't worry about it.

Reminds me of that nut Neil deGrasse Tyson complaining that the stars were all wrong on the movie Titanic. They actually went back and changed it, but even so, what the heck did it matter?

[DaleA]

The knife wielder would throw his knife in an unobvious safe direction, as the stubby air gun projectile knife imbedded in a board under the victim's shirt.

Wow. The things they got away with back then.

There was a book IIRC "Stuntman" by the legendary Hal Needham (driving force behind the "Smokey and The Bandit movies and the movie "Hooper") that said in the early days of TV if they had an Indian attack they'd put a bunch of padding under their costumes and let the archer actually shoot them with an arrow relying on his skill that he'd hit center of mass where the padding was and not hit them in the head etc.

To keep this gun related Needham also told of working on a WWII movie where the director wanted a tank main gun to fire and kill an infantry guy. The director wanted both the tank and the infantry guy in the frame at the same time so Needham was ridiculously close to the tank. Needham set up the shot, figuring out how far away he had to be from tank's main gun which was firing some kind of blank and got the angles right so it would look like he was in front of the gun when it went off.

He had local talent, not one of his own crew, in the tank. He explained he'd be running across the set in front of the tank and after he passed the main gun the local talent was to wait until he got the required number of steps past the gun and then set it off. Needham even marked the spot with some piece of war time debris in his path as a visual for the guy so that when he stepped next to it the gun was to be set off.

They started shooting the scene, Needham runs across the set and when he is directly in front of the tank's gun the local guy sets it off. Needham said the concussion knocked him out and severely damaged his hearing. Needham's book IMhO is pretty good.

https://www.amazon.com/Stuntman-Car-...s=books&sr=1-1

[osbornk]

They get stuff wrong because they don't know better or don't have the right stuff but the one thing that has driven me nuts over the last 40 years or more has to do with cars. When they are showing someone driving a car, you can frequently see the gearshift lever sticking up where it is in park as they are supposedly driving down the road.

[briandg]

I never worry about that sort of thing anymore. Expecting the staff and cast of a small production to be spot on with the equipment and sets is too much.

Have you noticed the state of journalism, or for that matter, even reading through a catalog? Errors are going to happen and complicated things like films will have lots of errors, and big errors.

But then again, maybe the people who made the documentary had a limited budget for props and they only rented a minimal number and used them without worrying if they were using the right things.

[JERRYS.]

you think that's bad, in Dr. No when Bond is shooting at the "dragon" his gun goes from PPK to 1911 and back to a PPK. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iedK7wzunWo

[DaleA]

his gun goes from PPK to 1911 and back to a PPK

One of Q's most ingenious innovations!

[Double Naught Spy]

you think that's bad, in Dr. No when Bond is shooting at the "dragon" his gun goes from PPK to 1911 and back to a PPK.

And from that we get the mantra...

Two is one and one is none.

[briandg]

I just remembered something that happened decades ago along this line. My father in law was a shooter, and yes, he used to pitch a fit when he saw something wrong, even when it was just a C movie western like cisco kid. Oh, boy, that man had a lot of anger.

When roach studios and turner started to colorize the old musicals, the real rage started. It wasn't just about a mistake anymore. He would sit and yell at the television that the colors were wrong. He was also a very busy photographer and he was absolutely certain that he knew what color a b+w print would be, and that he could tell when the color was wrong.

every once in a while I'll point out a car, gun, etc to my wife but I'm far more likely to shout about bad science. She is always surprised by how little I care if I see a thompson SMG in an episode of roy rogers, or a red ryder BB gun in spartacus.

[Dfariswheel]

In the 1930's Hollywood did some seriously dangerous gun stunts.
James Cagney figured in two of them..
Hollywood employed an expert with the Thompson SMG to do the trick shooting WITH LIVE AMMO.

I think it was 1931's "Public Enemy" Cagney and a gangster friend are fired on by two water cooled machine guns from a window across the street.
That's fake.
In reality, as Cagney ducks around a corner of a building and peeks back a line of bullets stitches up the wall VERY close to him.
There's a photo of the filming of the scene showing the Thompson gunner kneeing on a table just behind and to the right of the camera and Cagney standing behind the corner.

In another movie, Cagney was to stand in an open window while a Thompson shoots around him.
This time Cagney had reservations so they faked it by superimposing him in the window after the burst is fired.
As the gunner fired the burst, one bullet hit the steel window frame and bounced off.
Had Cagney been actually standing there the real bullet would have hit him in the head.

[briandg]

This begs the question, why did brandon lee die? Because some idiot pointed a gun that was supposed to be filled with ordinary blanks at his heart.

Now how exactly does aiming a blank gun at an actor's heart make the B Movie any more believable, or any better? Cagney lived because someone involved in the scene thought 'hey, maybe I should follow the most basic rules of handling a firearm."

So, again, why in the world did someone get a hole blown in his chest by some pinheaded stuntman who forgot that you shouldn't point a gun at someone unless you want to kill him?

In a way this is related to the original question. Should they be using real guns, replicas, or even blue guns? If you should give some of the people in the united states the opportunity to do it, well, they would forbid anything but blue plastic guns in entertainment.

[P5 Guy]

The rifle in the catalog is a WWII German semi-auto rifle.
He's also stating that a rifle can fire a bullet at over 8,000 feet per second.

Sounds just like the typical gun store counter talk.

[Erno86]

Due to a lack of K98 Mauser scoped sniper rifles during WWII...some German snipers used there own scoped hunting rifles or captured M91/30 Russian sniper rifles.