Bear PROTECTION, not Bear Hunting

[Mike_Fontenot]

Thanks. My son in Alaska (in Haines, in SE) has told me before that the old timers around there HAVE told him that the black bears there CAN also be extremely dangerous.

[agtman]

I am not saying it isn't effective, just that you have to wait until the bear is very close and watch the wind.

Right, that's the proximity problem ...

You'd have to gauge the bear's closing distance and speed just right while you're waiting to 'perfume' him with Wildcat Mcdude's guaranteed '40-foot' 'killer' spray, ... whereas with a handgun that you've trained with, you can start firing from further away, and wind is a non-issue.

Most people don't have the nerve to wait until a charging bear is less than 20 feet away.

Nope, they'd faint or crap their pants, or both, right after throwing the can at the bear and having about as much effect as the 2nd string pitcher on a 6th-grade girls team.

Equally few will be the people that can hold their fire with a gun until that range as well.

Well, you'd open fire when you sensed the charge is real. Why wait?

Bear Spray = B.S. Simple as that.

Carry enough gun, and know how and where to hit with it.

[HiBC]

So,agtman,

I get it that you found a couple of decent guys with an assortmemt of guns ,a bear target and a sled who live in AK.

They made a fun video and its interesting.I'm not knocking them.

I'm not knocking you.

My practice was shooting tires rolling down a hill.

I'm curious . What personal experience or expertise do you yourself actually have to base your adamant opinions on? Its OK you have them,but what are they based on?


How did you get so sure?


You can believe whatever you want,and make what choices you want to protect yourself,but you are expressing disrespect for other folks and giving advice that is not backed up

[Andy Blozinski]

I was reading up on bear spray. In the expected standard laws are often stupid category.....
There are multiple states where it is illegal to buy pepper spray, but legal to buy bear spray.
Oi-vey!

[Cosmodragoon]

I have done the drill with it, but my .460 is a 10 1/2" PC hunting revolver. Not really what one would use for a trail gun for Blackie defense. It sure blew some damn big dirt clods up tho.........

I have the basic 8ish" XVR. It's a beautiful boat anchor that could substitute for a rifle on woods walks. I haven't tried anything fancy with mine. I've mostly used it for blowing up static water melons, water jugs, etc. There was one unlucky woodchuck. Hornady's "budget option", a 200-grain flex tip sailing around 2200 fps, made a real mess...

[briandg]

WOw, he was lucky to have the ranger right there!

High valley, it didn''t quite happen that way, the bear caught him. He was trying to get across a creek with the bear right on his heels and tripped on his chest waders. he went down in a few feet of water, the bear got on his back but then let him go because he was underwater. Dad climbed out as the bear went back for cover. The ranger station was contacted, a guy was right on the spot with a .357 handgun; the place was swarming with people and they didn't dare wait for someone with a bear rifle.

He went down to the bear's hiding place to assess the situation and it charged him. That is how I know that a big grizzly can be killed by a skilled man with a .357. Since he emptied his piece, I also recognize that shooting at a bear is a very easy way to meet your doom.

Seeing a bear that big and recognizing what it must have been like having that behemoth coming hell bent for my face has stuck with me, and I have no illusions. If i'm charged by an enraged, screaming grizzly, I'm going to die. probably a 90% certainty. The absolute confidence that some people present is amusing.

[wild cat mccane]

Here's another funny one.

Ever trip to Alaska, I have to buy bear spray. You'll see it's pretty common to do this and gift it guides or tourist shops.

I can bring a handgun on the plane, but not bear spray in any way.

[wild cat mccane]

Your home has 50-75PSI in the pipes. Regulators are pre set to 50PSI. Higher than 75 and you need a regulator to avoid damage to your washing machine, dishwasher, and fridge.

Bear spray has up to 110PSI in the canister.

Get it? 110PSI could potentially blind you by the impact.

It hits AS HARD AS a garden hose at 40 FEET.

Measure 40 feet. That's a pretty good shot alignment at a charging black bear covering 50ft in a second full speed...

Protection, not hunting. That was the topic. Hunting? Sure, I mean I don't think it's all the awesome to be killing bears, but go ahead with the magnums. Heck, even Buffalo Bore Ammunition says a 9mm FMJ is sufficient --on their website.

Avid weekly hiker here. What are your creds?

[mikejonestkd]

Just going to leave this here for you all:
https://above.nasa.gov/safety/docume...vs_bullets.pdf

I hike the Catskills and Adirondacks all summer, and carry Udap with me on every trip.

[big al hunter]

I work in the construction industry. I am very familiar with the water delivery system. You are correct that water pressure in domestic water lines is regulated to low pressures. But 110 psi is not high pressure. You can squirt me with 110 psi at 20 feet any time you want to. Bear spray is not designed to be a stream. It is intensionally a mist. By 40 feet it is a gentle, floating fog of nasty spices. The visable fog only sprays 20-25 feet, then it is a cloud that a charging bear runs through. This is directly from the instructions for UDAP bear spray

If a bear is charging, begin spraying when it gets within 40 feet. It will run into the fog. If a bear is coming at you along with a strong wind, you may wish to wait until it is quite close before spraying. Carry your canister in a holster on your belt or chest, with nozzle pointing away from you. Aim for the face or spray a cloud that the bear has to run through to get to you.

The idea is that a bear is covering 30 feet per second. You spray early so that the bear contacts the fog at 20 feet and stops charging. If the bear is slowly and methodically stalking you, (yes it happens) then you need to wait until it is at 20 feet. I have used a measuring tape every day for the last 25 years and I can say none of the video I have seen of bear spray testing or actual use had a visable fog further than 20 feet from the user.

[Mike_Fontenot]

Originally Posted by Big Al Hunter

Bear spray is not designed to be a stream.

I buy FOX 5.3, 3oz., available from Readhotpepperspray.com. It is available in spray or stream. I buy the stream.

[big al hunter]

Mike, have you practiced with it? And can you hit a moving target with it? I'm not sure I could grab a can and spray an accurate stream in that high pressure situation without practice. UDAP sells inert cans for practice. Does Fox have them as well?

I want a fog. It's easier to get on the critter during a high stress, action filled encounter.

[Mike_Fontenot]

Originally Posted by Big Al Hunter

Mike, have you practiced with it?

No. I've got numerous old ones that I've replaced, and I've always intended to try them, but I've never gotten around to it. I carry it all the time, but it's primarily to discourage aggressive dogs and other critters that I might encounter when out walking my dog. I conceal-carry a S&W 629 5" .44mag all the time (from pajamas-off until pajamas-on), and THAT'S what's for bears, cougars, and bad-guys, not the pepper spray. Maybe I'd try the spray on the really dangerous stuff, but only after emptying my 629 on them.

[briandg]

My mailman used spray on a spider outside my mail box once, stained the side of my house orange. It wasn't even poisonous, it was just big.

[Pond, James Pond]

Question. As aiming on a charging bear is hard work, why not kneel?

It would be more stable and you’d be level with the target: no lead.
No?

[44 AMP]

you’d be level with the target:

Yes, you would be, but remember, that works both ways!

#1) I don't like the idea of putting my face closer to the bear's mouth...
#2) Aiming at the bear means facing the bear, worst case means turn and run, if kneeling, you have to GET UP, Turn, and Run...I'm old, don't do the "get up" part well any more, and while I would be highly motivated, I don't see a big benefit adding an extra step to the run away process...

[HiBC]

I think we have established that a person can choose fog or stream pepper spray.Take your pick.

With stream,its not like firing a shot that hits or misses.Its like squirting a hose.
You see the stream and redirect it on target.

Both seem so obvious I don't understand the arguments.

In any case,as I have told my story,which amounts to one experience by one person (not much) I don't believe I gave much,if any advice.I do suggest standard Foster soft lead shotgun slugs lack penetration.If you will use a shotgun,I recommend stepping up to Brennekes or equiv.Whatever you shoot a bear with needs to penetrate.

Either spray or gun beats nothing. If using a handgun,the biggest you can shoot well is probably best.Its still pretty small.


If YOU decide to carry a Benelli 12 ga loaded with Brennekes or a 45-70 Guide gun or a .375 bolt gun or a 500 S+W or a 454 Casull or a 44 Magnum or a Lipsey 44 SPL or a Glock 10 mm or a .357 or a 460 Roland,45 ACP,or a 9x18 Makarov ,or bear spray,or any combination of the above,thats up to you.

Its not my behind that's on the line.If you ask me what I would do,thats different.I can tell you. There is nothing to argue about.

You might choose something else. That's OK.You get to take care of yourself your way.

Despite government recommendations,My first choice where legal is an adequate firearm.I do not dismiss spray.I might carry both.

If through hiking the Continental Divide Trail(not likely) I might just carry spray.

Mostly,I'd try to avoid the bear or lion confrontation if possible.

It would be really silly for me to tell you "Don't use bear spray" or "Your .357 will just make them mad" Both have been used successfully.


Life has risks . We gear up to meet our fears. If we are among bears,lions,etc,in the woods,lightning,moving water,ticks,mosquitos,and gravity oh,and bad water,are probably every bit as dangerous.

What gun for lightning? No gun will eliminate risk. If you are scared enough,make the choice to stay home.


I feel best knowing I have a familiar piece of steel and some lead to put my hand on.The opinion of other folks doesn't matter a lot. I'm open to spray,and would use it.I might have my 44 in my other hand.


One more thing.I keep reading about "The Charging Bear". Well,maybe. That can happen. Sometimes. I think more often it might start with a bear siting.The bear comes closer. Or smelling something dead.

There is a situation to deal with and it deteriorates .

Watch people fly fishing among grizzlies in Alaska..That crazy bear guy and his girlfriend were not killed by a charge.They were in a tent and a frypan was not enough. Hmmm.Frypan in the tent. That's at least cooking utensils in the tent. Bad idea.Avoidable.

[briandg]

Question. As aiming on a charging bear is hard work, why not kneel?

It would be more stable and you’d be level with the target: no lead.
No?

That makes all sorts of sense but a sidestep might be better as you empty your magazine into his side.

As long as we are talking about making miraculous and difficult shots in amazingly stressful situations and surviving attacks by alpha predators that make their living by killing and eating things (when possible) we might as well be thorough.

I'm going to wait until he's a yard away and make a tactical roll, then empty my single action .45 colt into his bunghole after he runs past. Of course it will be loaded with buffalo bore or A square lion load. If he manages to turn around and come back for another fanny whapping I can surely reload after another tactical roll and put six more rounds right down his nostrils. Poor stupid grizzly won't live long enough to regret messing with the true alpha predator. Me.

[HiBC]

briandg, Don't quit your day job.

[agtman]

briandg, Don't quit your day job.

Don't be rude.

We have standards on this forum, such as they are.

[briandg]

briandg, Don't quit your day job.

Not going to happen, I retired after a brain tumor. Now I have plenty of time to go onto the internet and analyze messages for truth and sensibility. I have found that for every good idea, and there have been several good ideas floated here, there are maybe one hundred that fall into the category of the scenario that I just floated.

An african hunter was once chased up a tree by a buffalo and his crew was missing. He dropped both his rifle and his handgun on the way up the tree. So, he unrolled his shirt, took a safety pin, fished for his 1911 until he caught it. Then he made a dummy out of his shirt and clothes, and he would swing it down in front of the buffalo and shoot it as it charged the dummy. After emptying the magazine, he was able to jump down on the other side of the tree and grab his rifle to dispatch the half dead critter.

I read it, do I believe it? I dunno.

You do what you can as the time arises, and plan for things like having your gun bearer
drop the rifle and run like a scared little girl when a buffalo charges. I believe that his rifle failed to fire, but I can't remember.

It's sure a good thing that he had a tree handy, but bear spray might have been pretty good, too.

Not every idea is good, some are just so stupid they make politics look perfectly reasonable. Too many people can't winnow through the chaff and understand why interest rates should be changed, or which direction. Lots of people don't have the ability to discern when they aren't thinking clearly. Look around, you can certainly find a few.

It's just as important to have second and third choices lined up in case the default reaction doesn't work.

One of those options should be to have your will written, and don't bother putting your hunting gear in it. People are killed by bears, even smart ones are.

[briandg]

Something that I have never noticed in any of the bear defense discussions is the use of a taser, or any other alternative weapon other than pepper spray.

Could we sell a juiced taser for bear control? would it be a good idea to shoot one into a big wooly pelted carnivore?

Turns out that I'm not the only one who is thinking outside of the box, alaska fish and game department is researching it.

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm...rticles_id=450

A tazed bear can be maced afterwards without risk of self-inflicted spray. it can also be dispatched if that is called for.

Someday, bear tazers may be legal to purchase by the public but I'm not counting on it. Nobody will want to sell one that is rated for animal control to the public and risk the thing being used on a neighbor, resulting in possible repercussions for the maker.

[JERRYS.]

for the OP, you already have a .357 magnum. if it is a full sized gun you can load it with 158gr. solid rounds and be fine for your location. if you just want to buy another gun "for bear" a .44 magnum is good because it can be loaded from light to heavy which ever you discover is easiest for you to shoot fast AND accurately.

[Cosmodragoon]

#1) I don't like the idea of putting my face closer to the bear's mouth...

#2) Aiming at the bear means facing the bear, worst case means turn and run, if kneeling, you have to GET UP, Turn, and Run...

Just a thought but what is the difference in falling backward between standing and kneeling? In which situation would you be more able to keep shooting the animal that's overtaking you?

Even if kneeling were helpful, is it a step you'll remember in the quick heart-pounding moment of an animal charge? You'd probably be better served by putting your energy into drawing and trying to get shots on target.

[Fjblair]

Originally Posted by rodfac

Bear spray first and foremost, but I'd still carry a big revolver...of the choices you mentioned, I have the M69 Smith which weighs just a cpl oz's more than my M19, but is infinitely better if you ever need it. Hard cast 240 Magnums would be my suggestion and get some practice in with them. The lighter weight will encourage you to carry it on your hikes too.

In that regard, a good holster that you can draw from with split second timing, is worth some study. I'd choose a "tanker" type of chest holster that can be worn over or under a hiking jacket/windbreaker. A OWB, cross-draw type might work out as well but would be hindered if the outer jacket is too long.

Mine is a great gun, the two piece bbl. and cursed lock notwithstanding. Grouping inside 2" at 25 yds, and with a reasonable DA trigger and superb SA trigger, it's a great handgun.

Best regards, Rod

Seems he is not interested in spray even though every expert recommends it. Ballistics trump facts.