Do I need a Lawyer to make an NFA Trust?

iraiam · April 7, 2014, 07:23 PM

I have been looking into the possibility of creating a NFA trust for a Title II SBR that I want to build, I highly doubt there will be any CLEO sign off here.

I have looked over quite a lot of information, and it seems the most prudent way to do this is to hire an attorney familiar with the process to help me make sure I get it right.

one of the advisements I have received so far is to create a dedicated bank account in the name of the trust; used to pay for the NFA item(s), as opposed to paying for them personally.

In my case I want to purchase a short AR Barrel and create a new NFA item, I have been confused thus far on the finer points of getting this done.

Did you use an attorney to set up your trust?

**JohnKSa** · April 7, 2014, 10:40 PM

You'll get a lot of different opinions. My opinion is that there's a lot at stake and it makes sense to make sure it's done right. If it turns out that there's a problem with the trust that invalidates it for any reason, you are immediately in violation of federal law by being in possession of an NFA item without the proper legal means to do so.

Sharkbite · April 7, 2014, 11:34 PM

Im in Co and used a laywer to set up a NFA trust.

He wrote it up and funded it with a $5 bill (s/n recorded). No separate bank acct needed.

I paid for all my NFA stuff outta my personal acct and bought them in the trusts name

dogtown tom · April 8, 2014, 05:13 PM

Here is a great post on The High Road that should help you decide:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=719848

Theohazard · April 8, 2014, 05:42 PM

^^^ That's also a sticky on the top of this forum.

Unlicensed Dremel · April 8, 2014, 09:23 PM

It's easier. Just go to www.guntrustlawyer.com . Pay them $600 and you will have two attorneys on your case - Mr. Goldman out of Jacksonville and a local counsel somewhere in your state of Colo.

TXAZ · April 8, 2014, 10:09 PM

I don't have one but know 2 who went through http://199trust.com and are happy.
They have reduced their price recently to $99.

iraiam · April 8, 2014, 10:11 PM

That certainly is a better price than I had been quoted elsewhere, I'll give it a look. Thanks

Jay24bal · April 9, 2014, 10:14 PM

It may not be "true" advice, but with something as serious as a creating a legal entity to own and posses NFA items, the adage rings true in my mind:

"If you think you may need an attorney, you need an attorney."

Sure, the online generic forms can work and have worked for people, but is it really worth saving the couple hundred dollars? What is an extra $500 when it comes to ensuring that you and your family do not become felons? Especially if you have any intentions of procuring any full-auto weapons down the road that will cost tens of thousands of dollars, is an extra couple hundred even a drop in the bucket?

boltomatic · June 20, 2014, 08:57 AM

Technically, no. There is no law saying you must use a lawyer, BUT its highly recommended. If you set it up by yourself and make a mistake either in writing the trust or executing it, the NFA will still approve your purchases however if its ever found that your trust in invalid, you would be guilty of illegally possessing an NFA item.

This is a worst case scenario thing and probably wont happen, but with gun laws in constant flux like they are now you are better safe than sorry. Goldman will mail your a trust in a couple of hours for only $200, and its $600 if you want to purchase full legal support and actually meet with a lawyer. Considering you will be using the trust for the rest of your life, $200 is not a big deal.

Goldman sends you a list of instructions for properly executing and funding the trust, and how to purchase items for the trust.

Its also a very good idea to open a bank account for the trust and pay for all NFA items via that account. Technically, if the trust is purchasing the NFA item, the trust needs to pay for the item. You can pay with your own money and attach a letter to the trust stating you made the purchase on behalf of the trust, but its easy to set up a bank account and the paper trail is more legit. Don't take any risks, you don't know what the future holds.

johnfreeman · July 21, 2014, 05:31 PM

Would you go skydiving with a parachute you made it yourself to save money?

Coach Z · July 21, 2014, 06:29 PM

I used the guntrustlawyer site and a partner of his in CT and have been very happy both with advice he gave and now that I've received a couple stamps without any issue it's well worth the expense IMO.

Sgt Pepper · July 21, 2014, 06:38 PM

Yes. Yes. Yes. My legal advice (and I'm qualified to give it) is don't ask us or any other forum, go ask an attorney in your jurisdiction.

Beyond drafting the trust correctly, it is highly advisable to get advice on how to operate the trust properly going forward into the future. One misstep, and you could lose the protection of the trust and end up in serious hot water. Keep in mind that the issue we are talking about bears severe and unavoidable penalties where no "honest mistake" may go unpunished, which also may result in you never possessing a firearm again. There is too much at stake, meaning fines, forfeiture, personal liberty, and so on.

boltomatic · July 24, 2014, 03:52 PM

TECHNICALLY no. As long as the trust is created properly, it doesn't matter who creates it. That said, there are NFA specific things that need to go into a gun trust designed to hold NFA items, and even just for regular guns its really not worth risking setting up an invalid trust on your own when you can have a lawyer set one up for $200 online and have peace of mind.

With NFA items specifically, the ATF WILL approve a transfer to an invalid trust, but if its ever discovered that your trust is invalid YOU would be responsible and charged with possessing an unregistered silencer or whatever NFA item you have, event though the ATF said you could have it.

Has this ever happened to someone? Probably not, and I'm sure you could make an invalid trust, buy a silencer or machine gun, and probably never get in trouble, but all we need is some maniac to go on a shooting spree with a registered NFA item and before you know it the ATF will be cracking down and auditing all its transfers, its not worth the risk in my opinion.

Bartholomew Roberts · July 24, 2014, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Has this ever happened to someone? Probably not

I think Joshua Prince mentioned a case where the BATFE had transferred an NFA weapon to a trust and then when the owner attempted to purchase another NFA item, they denied the form because they claimed the trust was invalid. No idea how that worked out ultimately though.

Elkins45 · July 27, 2014, 07:52 AM

Quote:

I don't have one but know 2 who went through http://199trust.com and are happy.
They have reduced their price recently to $99.

They say right on their site that they aren't lawyers.

I paid $200 and mine was created by an real attorney authorized to practice in my state. It's worth the extra $101 just to have someone else to blame if my trust is ever found invalid. Using a lawyer shows that I acted in good faith rather than trying to save a few bucks by using a legal document I found on the back of a cereal box.

April 7, 2014, 07:23 PM	#1
iraiam Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2012 Location: Lakewood, CO Posts: 1,057	Do I need a Lawyer to make an NFA Trust? I have been looking into the possibility of creating a NFA trust for a Title II SBR that I want to build, I highly doubt there will be any CLEO sign off here. I have looked over quite a lot of information, and it seems the most prudent way to do this is to hire an attorney familiar with the process to help me make sure I get it right. one of the advisements I have received so far is to create a dedicated bank account in the name of the trust; used to pay for the NFA item(s), as opposed to paying for them personally. In my case I want to purchase a short AR Barrel and create a new NFA item, I have been confused thus far on the finer points of getting this done. Did you use an attorney to set up your trust? __________________ NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999 "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason

April 7, 2014, 10:40 PM	#2
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,990	You'll get a lot of different opinions. My opinion is that there's a lot at stake and it makes sense to make sure it's done right. If it turns out that there's a problem with the trust that invalidates it for any reason, you are immediately in violation of federal law by being in possession of an NFA item without the proper legal means to do so. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

April 8, 2014, 05:13 PM	#4
dogtown tom Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2006 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 3,089	Here is a great post on The High Road that should help you decide: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=719848 __________________ Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE

April 8, 2014, 05:42 PM	#5
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Location: Western PA Posts: 3,829	^^^ That's also a sticky on the top of this forum. __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."

April 8, 2014, 10:09 PM	#7
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	I don't have one but know 2 who went through http://199trust.com and are happy. They have reduced their price recently to $99. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

April 7, 2014, 11:34 PM	#3
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	Im in Co and used a laywer to set up a NFA trust. He wrote it up and funded it with a $5 bill (s/n recorded). No separate bank acct needed. I paid for all my NFA stuff outta my personal acct and bought them in the trusts name

April 8, 2014, 09:23 PM	#6
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	It's easier. Just go to www.guntrustlawyer.com . Pay them $600 and you will have two attorneys on your case - Mr. Goldman out of Jacksonville and a local counsel somewhere in your state of Colo.

April 8, 2014, 10:11 PM	#8
iraiam Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2012 Location: Lakewood, CO Posts: 1,057	That certainly is a better price than I had been quoted elsewhere, I'll give it a look. Thanks __________________ NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999 "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason

April 9, 2014, 10:14 PM	#9
Jay24bal Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2011 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 735	It may not be "true" advice, but with something as serious as a creating a legal entity to own and posses NFA items, the adage rings true in my mind: "If you think you may need an attorney, you need an attorney." Sure, the online generic forms can work and have worked for people, but is it really worth saving the couple hundred dollars? What is an extra $500 when it comes to ensuring that you and your family do not become felons? Especially if you have any intentions of procuring any full-auto weapons down the road that will cost tens of thousands of dollars, is an extra couple hundred even a drop in the bucket? __________________ I like guns. Once Fired Brass, Top quality, Fast shipping, Best prices. http://300AacBrass.com/ -10% Coupon use code " Jay24bal "

June 20, 2014, 08:57 AM	#10
boltomatic Member Join Date: March 25, 2014 Posts: 98	Its a good idea. Technically, no. There is no law saying you must use a lawyer, BUT its highly recommended. If you set it up by yourself and make a mistake either in writing the trust or executing it, the NFA will still approve your purchases however if its ever found that your trust in invalid, you would be guilty of illegally possessing an NFA item. This is a worst case scenario thing and probably wont happen, but with gun laws in constant flux like they are now you are better safe than sorry. Goldman will mail your a trust in a couple of hours for only $200, and its $600 if you want to purchase full legal support and actually meet with a lawyer. Considering you will be using the trust for the rest of your life, $200 is not a big deal. Goldman sends you a list of instructions for properly executing and funding the trust, and how to purchase items for the trust. Its also a very good idea to open a bank account for the trust and pay for all NFA items via that account. Technically, if the trust is purchasing the NFA item, the trust needs to pay for the item. You can pay with your own money and attach a letter to the trust stating you made the purchase on behalf of the trust, but its easy to set up a bank account and the paper trail is more legit. Don't take any risks, you don't know what the future holds.

July 21, 2014, 05:31 PM	#11
johnfreeman Junior Member Join Date: August 4, 2012 Posts: 3	Would you go skydiving with a parachute you made it yourself to save money?

July 21, 2014, 06:29 PM	#12
Coach Z Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2011 Location: RI Posts: 795	I used the guntrustlawyer site and a partner of his in CT and have been very happy both with advice he gave and now that I've received a couple stamps without any issue it's well worth the expense IMO. __________________ Love my guns

July 21, 2014, 06:38 PM	#13
Sgt Pepper Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 811	Yes. Yes. Yes. My legal advice (and I'm qualified to give it) is don't ask us or any other forum, go ask an attorney in your jurisdiction. Beyond drafting the trust correctly, it is highly advisable to get advice on how to operate the trust properly going forward into the future. One misstep, and you could lose the protection of the trust and end up in serious hot water. Keep in mind that the issue we are talking about bears severe and unavoidable penalties where no "honest mistake" may go unpunished, which also may result in you never possessing a firearm again. There is too much at stake, meaning fines, forfeiture, personal liberty, and so on.

July 24, 2014, 03:52 PM	#14
boltomatic Member Join Date: March 25, 2014 Posts: 98	TECHNICALLY no. As long as the trust is created properly, it doesn't matter who creates it. That said, there are NFA specific things that need to go into a gun trust designed to hold NFA items, and even just for regular guns its really not worth risking setting up an invalid trust on your own when you can have a lawyer set one up for $200 online and have peace of mind. With NFA items specifically, the ATF WILL approve a transfer to an invalid trust, but if its ever discovered that your trust is invalid YOU would be responsible and charged with possessing an unregistered silencer or whatever NFA item you have, event though the ATF said you could have it. Has this ever happened to someone? Probably not, and I'm sure you could make an invalid trust, buy a silencer or machine gun, and probably never get in trouble, but all we need is some maniac to go on a shooting spree with a registered NFA item and before you know it the ATF will be cracking down and auditing all its transfers, its not worth the risk in my opinion.