The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 19, 2018, 01:23 PM   #1
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2002
Location: northern CA for a little while longer
Posts: 1,805
'Hero' customer kills gunman

Well, this scene changing incident had to be a nasty one to sort out afterward.

http://komonews.com/news/local/polic...mwater-walmart
__________________
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer
fastbolt is offline  
Old June 21, 2018, 08:45 PM   #2
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,252
The word hero is thrown around far too frequently. I really don't know what can be said about this event. The guy clearly needed to be hammered down. two men were there and they did that. what problems can be dragged into this legally I don't know, but on the surface of it a man was seen shooting another after multiple shots were heard. if this was an LEO, he would be a "hero" and almost certainly never even remotely face serious censure.

You are right, that thing was scattered over too many scenes, and so there's a lot of missing information at every step. I think that the guys both did the right thing by intervening.
__________________
None.
briandg is online now  
Old June 21, 2018, 09:39 PM   #3
SonOfScubaDiver
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 1, 2017
Posts: 391
The "hero" could be in legal hot water, depending on the laws in Washington. I don't carry a gun with the idea that I would use it in any situation other than a direct threat to me or my family. I don't have a problem with those who feel that intervening in crimes is something they're willing to do, but I'm not sticking my neck out to save anyone other than myself or loved ones.
SonOfScubaDiver is offline  
Old June 21, 2018, 10:00 PM   #4
jrothWA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2006
Posts: 2,295
It's simple...

long time loser, meet a LICENSED CPL and lost.

The CPL then secured the preps firearm and rendered aid to the wounded, for he is a first responder EMT.

kept it super simple.

Also, he's a ordained Minister said a prayer for the soul lost.
jrothWA is offline  
Old June 21, 2018, 10:01 PM   #5
jmorris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 3,023
The guy went towards danger to help others, depends on what definition of “hero” you are looking at but that meets at least one of them.

Not “sticking ones neck out” has been at times deemed a cowardly act, like a man on the Titanic taking a vest or jumping in a life boat, knowing other women and children will die because of the action.

Self preservation is a pretty strong instinct though. Hard to know what guy you are until you are presented with the situation...
jmorris is offline  
Old June 22, 2018, 01:18 PM   #6
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 20,285
Good shoot. That said, I'd hate to be that "hero" who is being investigated for a homicide and then the potential civil lawsuit for wrongful death.

There should be no civil suit where it's a clear case of self-defense. That's for the state legislatures to change though.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old June 22, 2018, 04:43 PM   #7
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,442
Quote:
Good shoot. That said, I'd hate to be that "hero" who is being investigated for a homicide and then the potential civil lawsuit for wrongful death.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.110

Know the law. There will not be a lawsuit. As many as 39 states have some sort of qualified immunity from civil litigation for self defense.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is online now  
Old June 22, 2018, 05:05 PM   #8
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,802
Here is an update:

Quote:
"The gunman attempted to get a car and when he failed he moved to another," George said. "He then shot two times into the driver side of the vehicle and I fired to stop the shooter. I moved to clear the gunman, yelling to him to drop the gun and show me his hands."

The suspect, 44-year-old Timothy Day had a lengthy rap sheet and died at the scene. George, who is also a volunteer firefighter and EMT, immediately jumped in to save the victims.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tumwate...opping-gunman/
thallub is offline  
Old June 22, 2018, 06:38 PM   #9
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,169
The pastor said:

Quote:
"I carry a firearm for the same reason I carry a first aid bag," he said. "Hoping never having to use them but always being prepared."
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.
MTT TL is offline  
Old June 23, 2018, 12:10 AM   #10
SonOfScubaDiver
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 1, 2017
Posts: 391
"Know the law. There will not be a lawsuit. As many as 39 states have some sort of qualified immunity from civil litigation for self defense."


Try reading it again. One would first have to be found not guilty because of self defense, and then their legal fees would be reimbursed by the state. So, he may still have to go before a judge or jury for the determination of self defense to become official. It's possible that the decision to bring it before a judge or jury is left to the prosecuting attorney, but it's also possible that going before ajudge or jury is required.

I'm no lawyer, but the only part of the story where I see any grounds for prosecution is that the "hero" followed the bad guy out of the store after the shooting started. I could see a prosecutor arguing that he did that with the intention of taking the law into his own hands.
SonOfScubaDiver is offline  
Old June 23, 2018, 06:29 AM   #11
OhioGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2016
Posts: 823
http://www.theolympian.com/news/loca...213474044.html

This quote from a police spokesperson:

"Tumwater police spokeswoman Laura Wohl said Tuesday that the department never wants to see anybody put themselves in harm's way. However, her understanding was that the Oakville man was familiar with firearms and how to use them safely, she said.

"In this situation, we are glad more people weren't hurt," she said."

I guess I'm surprised that people, including the armed citizen who stopped the attack, are speaking publicly so soon after the incident. I'm really not familiar with these sorts of cycles, I guess, but I would have thought everyone would be mum until rulings were made.

Maybe it's already been ruled as a justifiable act. "was familiar with firearms and how to use them safely" is not the same as "was justified in pursuing and stopping the shooter."

But I can't imagine any scenario in which this carjacker did NOT hurt or kill more people before eventually being stopped by police -- or taking hostages and standing off with police, or who knows what.

What happened: thug shoots and injures several people before being stopped by armed citizens. Makes small-time local news and gets shared on The Firing Line forums.

What could have happened: thug escapes and goes on a longer killing spree, making national news and inciting more protests around the country against high-capacity magazines
OhioGuy is offline  
Old June 23, 2018, 06:42 AM   #12
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,169
I find that defensive uses of firearms that result in a hit to the offender average about three a day in media reported cases nationally in the US. Sometimes there are multiple hits and against multiple offenders.

A tiny fraction of these are ever prosecuted these days. There is often too much evidence out there (videos, social media posts, reliable witnesses etc) to start an unlawful prosecution against the victim. It happens but it is pretty rare.

Best practice is to keep mum but so few people can keep their mouth shut these days...
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.
MTT TL is offline  
Old June 23, 2018, 09:31 AM   #13
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 5,260
The Pastors states (and no one contradicts):
Quote:
"[The gunman] then shot two times into the driver side of the vehicle [he was trying to hijack] and I fired to stop the shooter. I moved to clear the gunman, yelling to him to drop the gun and show me his hands."
This is a no-brainer.
mehavey is online now  
Old June 23, 2018, 02:27 PM   #14
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,252
I'm in agreement, and have been all along, that there is nothing morally or ethically wrong with taking the life, and I don't think that anything was done wrong in the sense of whether or not it had to be done.

You will always have people who disagree, disagree to the point that the guys should have kept their guns in their pants and not endangered anyone else as he went on his rampage.

I'm not sure if there are clearly stated laws anywhere in the US that would forbid use of lethal force by a civilian to save other lives after witnessing potentially lethal attacks against another.
__________________
None.
briandg is online now  
Old June 23, 2018, 09:10 PM   #15
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 9,229
A point I'd make is that not violating the law and not being sued aren't the same thing. You may well be cleared criminally and still end up in civil court. Now it's very true that a number of states have passed legislation to deal with this, but be mindful of where you live and the rules that apply to you.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is online now  
Old June 23, 2018, 10:46 PM   #16
458winshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Louisville,Tn on the Tn river
Posts: 558
Hero customer

If the story holds true then yes I'll call them both heroes for doing what had to be done and attempting it by the other one.I agree with another poster that depending on the laws that he may face trouble but I would hope that more people would take action if confronted with the same problem.Who knows what else may have happened if he hadn't acted as he did.
458winshooter is offline  
Old June 24, 2018, 12:06 AM   #17
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,252
Quote:
A point I'd make is that not violating the law and not being sued aren't the same thing. You may well be cleared criminally and still end up in civil court. Now it's very true that a number of states have passed legislation to deal with this, but be mindful of where you live and the rules that apply to you.
Something like this is going to be life changing in a lot of ways, I don't believe that any event like this can ever be completely free of one risk or another, and samaritan laws are just as vulnerable to problems as the other ones. I know that it sounds ridiculous to be so paranoid about what MAY be possible, but when you are dealing with the flexible, rubbery thing that our culture is, when enough power is piled onto a particular decision, that decision can almost certainly go astray.

Honestly, sometimes I'd be more worried about the relatives or other gang members finding me and killing my entire family. There were two armed robberies here this very day. What to do? This guy made it pretty clear, he left very little doubt.

But these two wankers who robbed the stores, obviously the thing was to observe and report and not engage unless life depended on it, but I still don't relish being in that decision position.

It's really interesting reading the comments section on the PD pages. morons from here to DC have ranted and raved about probably every post that the PD has ever made. We haven't heard it, probably, but there is obviously going to be a huge number of people who are absolutely outraged.
__________________
None.
briandg is online now  
Old June 24, 2018, 05:43 AM   #18
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 5,260
Again, the hijacker had already shot two people, and was actively firing again into the driver's side of the vehicle he was trying next to take.

Please tell me the alternative...
mehavey is online now  
Old June 24, 2018, 07:13 AM   #19
OhioGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2016
Posts: 823
Good points about the publicity and the danger it exposes someone to. Here's the hero, here's his face, here's his address and Facebook page and his kid's school and...and...and...
OhioGuy is offline  
Old June 24, 2018, 09:38 AM   #20
TXAZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 3,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT TL View Post

... A tiny fraction of these are ever prosecuted these days. There is often too much evidence out there (videos, social media posts, reliable witnesses etc) to start an unlawful prosecution against the victim. It happens but it is pretty rare.

...
Not so in the only uber-liberal part of “gun loving Texas”. A few years ago in anti-2nd amendment Austin Texas, the District Attorney announced a new policy that all defensive gun use would go to the grand jury. And they have and many on to trial with the purpose to legally make lawful gun use financially and emotionally expensive.
__________________
!أنا لست إرهابياً
TXAZ is offline  
Old June 24, 2018, 10:29 AM   #21
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,252
mehavey, there was no alternative to a reasonable person. We are not reasonable as a whole. People all over the country are already foaming at the mouth. Some of the anti-gun people would have preferred that he continue his rampage without intervention from a vigilante. Under other circumstances, there would be lots of public outrage. There are so many pacifist radicals who believe that violence is never an alternative.

Something to keep in mind, we aren't seeing any great protests in the press, but that is accountable to the press and the people. Some of the people, while talking about it privately and brooding, ranting inside, but unable or afraid to make statements.

Remember that there are animal rights activists who euthanize animals by the thousands because they would rather see it dead than be in anything but a perfect home.
__________________
None.

Last edited by briandg; June 24, 2018 at 10:35 AM.
briandg is online now  
Old June 24, 2018, 10:32 AM   #22
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 19,875
The social aftermaths of a defensive shooting are pretty well known and not pretty even in the 'good' shoot. You have to decide if you want to go through it.

Altruism and pro-social behavior is complex and there are no absolute or dichotomous decision rules for actions.

One can in coldly rational, self-interested manner just flee the decision or observe from a distance. One can intervene. You have to decide on many levels.

There is no right answer.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old June 24, 2018, 10:39 AM   #23
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 5,260
Oh there is a right answer.

It just requires shouldering the responsibiliy of consequences.
... and dealing with them as well.


Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing
mehavey is online now  
Old June 24, 2018, 10:46 AM   #24
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,252
That is a very clear and true statement. So many people here agree strongly with the get out of dodge philosophy under any circumstances, I don't. Yes, I would risk my life and health to prevent that killing, and other than the unhappy ending for the people in my circle, it doesn't much matter whether I survive trying to save other lives.

I hope that if and when I am presented with this thing that God, luck, whatever one would call it, will step in and at least let me know what to do.

Oh, yes, there are a lot of circumstances in which I would throw a raspberry and run, letting that situation play itself out. Why would I care if two gangsters are shooting it out? I'm just going to make a decision and intervene if I can see a reason.

I can't swim well, the probability that I will jump into running water to save someone is very slim, but back in maybe 1988, I dove into a pool and dragged a kid out of the deep end. I'm not going to commit suicide by going down the same river that someone else is drowning in.
__________________
None.
briandg is online now  
Old June 24, 2018, 11:04 AM   #25
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 19,875
I would gently suggest that when the discussion turns into virtue signaling about oneself, we have reached the end of productive conversation.

I won't close it as good discussion should continue but I'm pointing out the risk of just proclaiming "I would" and looking virtuous.

You may not want to admit it but the factors for intervention are many and interactive.

1. What is the risk to you?
2. Do you want the acclaim afterwards or fear the public reactions?
3. Do you want a reward?
4. Are you frozen by normalcy bias or the bystander effect?
5. Is the victim worth of saving? Do you intervene in a gang gunfight?
6. Does the victim belong to a group you identify with - ethnic, racial, gender, gender orientation, age, etc.?
7. Is the crisis immediately before you?

An accessible and easy read is
The Social Psychology of Prosocial Behavior
Jun 6, 2006
by John F. Dovidio and Jane Allyn Piliavin

There is much literature on the Internet so indicate it isn't as simple as saying "I would".

I know from research studies that in the typical man attacking woman scenario observed by a gun carrier with significant training, about half of them would just observe. These are folks with ability.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11350 seconds with 10 queries