“Zip Gun" vs. lawful “build your own” rifle

TXAZ · July 22, 2018, 12:16 PM

Assuming you don’t live in a state with oppressive gun statutes, what’s the difference in building an illegal “zip gun” (as a rifle) and buying or machining all the parts for a speciality rifle (like many here do for precision/ hunting rifles)?
Ie where is the line?

dogtown tom · July 22, 2018, 12:35 PM

No Federal law prohibits someone from making their own firearm.

Most "zip guns" are illegal not due to being a homemade firearm, but because they lack certain features that make them a Title I firearm.
Examples:
-No rifling in a handgun barrel.
-Barrel length of less than 16", OAL of less than 26" for a rifle.
-Barrel length of less than 18", OAL of less than 26" for a shotgun.
-OAL length of less than 26" for an Other Firearm.

Most common "zip guns" will utilize cheap, easily acquired items like lead pipe for the barrel/chamber, nails for the "firing pin", etc.

Home Depot doesn't sell rifled lead pipes. So if you want to make a firearm using that, you;ll need to attach a shoulder stock and have a barrel of at least 18". Any shorter and you'll have an illegal SBS.
OR
Build that smoothbore firearm without a shoulder stock and with an OAL of more than 26" to classify as an Other Firearm. Any shorter and you'll have an illegal AOW.

Jim Watson · July 22, 2018, 12:36 PM

There is no federal legal definition of a zip gun.
Crude as you like, as long as it meets the requirements for rifle, pistol, or shotgun, it is legal to make for your own use. Just be sure that your piece of radio antenna is 18"+ long and the overall is 26"+ so it counts as a shotgun.

Armorer-at-Law · July 23, 2018, 12:03 PM

If it does not fit the above federal definitions, then it may be a Title II (NFA) firearm that requires registration and tax payment. A Form 1 would need to be filed and approved before the build. If it meets the definition of a short barreled rifle (SBR) or short barreled shotgun (SBS), the tax is $200. If it meets the definition of an "any other weapon" (AOW), the tax is $5.

zxcvbob · July 23, 2018, 12:08 PM

I thought an AOW was $200 to build and $5 to transfer.

dogtown tom · July 24, 2018, 12:20 PM

Quote:

zxcvbob I thought an AOW was $200 to build and $5 to transfer.

You are correct.

**4V50 Gary** · July 24, 2018, 02:19 PM

Zip guns are generally made with limited tools and resources and almost always subquality materials. Their very nature makes them unsafe and highly unlikely that a mfg license will have been applied for. They may be good for one shot but their best application is for gun buybacks.

TruthTellers · July 24, 2018, 03:02 PM

Zip guns are almost always going to be smoothbore because making rifling is difficult and more expensive. So, because most will be smoothbore they have to have a barrel at least 18 inches long and overall 26 inches to not fall under NFA regs.

Easiest way to skirt that now is do what Franklin Armory did and make straight rifling (i.e. grooves) instead. Doesn't do anything to add accuracy or stabilize a bullet, but it makes any gun with a barrel under 16 inches legal.

Would probably work really well for a .45 Colt/.410 zip gun. Low pressures and 000 Buck multi projectiles not being spun by rifling.

TXAZ · July 24, 2018, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4V50 Gary

... They may be good for one shot but their best application is for gun buybacks.

Never thought about that one.

Let's see:
1- 4" of 1/2" pipe from Home Depot 85 cents (barel)
1- 3" x 4" x 2" piece of wood from Home Depot 30 cents (grip)
1- Clothespin with metal spring 15 cents (hammer)
1/4 ounce of gorilla glue 25 cents (gold it all together)
5 minutes to put it together

So for $1.55 I can get $75 back?
Can I scale this up to do 12 an hour, that's $881.40 per hour!

Sounds like a franchise opportunity to me

dogtown tom · July 24, 2018, 06:30 PM

Quote:

TXAZ Quote:
Originally Posted by 4V50 Gary View Post

Quote:

... They may be good for one shot but their best application is for gun buybacks.

Never thought about that one.

Let's see:
1- 4" of 1/2" pipe from Home Depot 85 cents (barel)
1- 3" x 4" x 2" piece of wood from Home Depot 30 cents (grip)
1- Clothespin with metal spring 15 cents (hammer)
1/4 ounce of gorilla glue 25 cents (gold it all together)
5 minutes to put it together

So for $1.55 I can get $75 back?
Can I scale this up to do 12 an hour, that's $881.40 per hour!

Sounds like a franchise opportunity to me

You think turning in an unregistered NFA firearm at a gun buy back is a good idea?

zxcvbob · July 24, 2018, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Never thought about that one.

Let's see:
1- 4" of 1/2" pipe from Home Depot 85 cents (barel)
1- 3" x 4" x 2" piece of wood from Home Depot 30 cents (grip)
1- Clothespin with metal spring 15 cents (hammer)
1/4 ounce of gorilla glue 25 cents (gold it all together)
5 minutes to put it together

So for $1.55 I can get $75 back?
Can I scale this up to do 12 an hour, that's $881.40 per hour!

Sounds like a franchise opportunity to me

14-ish inch barrel, and a little longer scrap of wood to make a "raptor" style grip and you might be okay. Like the Predator firearms that look a lot like pistol shotguns. OAL needs to be at least 26 inches. It might add another dollar to your cost tho'...

TXAZ · July 24, 2018, 08:01 PM

With Dogtown Tom as our compliance director and Zxcebob as the engineering director, I think we have a team!

(Sarcasm for the humor impaired)

TruthTellers · July 24, 2018, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogtown tom

You think turning in an unregistered NFA firearm at a gun buy back is a good idea?

Could make a broach and use it on a shop press to cut some straight rifling in. Would be even easier if there was a company who made broaches to do just this. That way the process stays entirely legal.

Armorer-at-Law · July 27, 2018, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zxcvbob

I thought an AOW was $200 to build and $5 to transfer.

I'm sorry. You are correct.

K_Mac · July 27, 2018, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Home Depot doesn't sell rifled lead pipes.

It dosen't sell lead pipe at all. You don't have to go back to ancient Rome to find it, but it has been many years since lead pipe was readily used or available, Flint Michigan notwithstanding.

MTT TL · July 27, 2018, 06:40 PM

How many tons of lead pipe do you need? Here it is $3K a ton, buy bulk and save.

https://tjpbtd.en.made-in-china.com/...B-with-CE.html

K_Mac · July 27, 2018, 08:04 PM

Good to know MTT TL. Everything you need in a gun barrel material; soft, heavy, and a low melting point.

**Aguila Blanca** · July 27, 2018, 09:38 PM

Numrich (Gun Parts Corp.) used to sell barrel blanks, in various lengths and calibers. Most were unchambered, and I think they were cut-offs from who knows what. Some were a bit pricey, and others were dirt cheap and would be a way to get a rifled barrel for a DIY project.

Pahoo · July 28, 2018, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Zip guns are generally made with limited tools and resources and almost always subquality materials.

This is my understanding as well. We made these back in the 50's with what was at hand and that's as much detail as I wish to share. They were unsafe and we did encounter some production problems. All were .22 caliber. ….

Be Safe !!!

T. O'Heir · July 29, 2018, 12:31 PM

Home Depot doesn't sell lead pipes at all, but you don't have to go to ancient Rome. Lead piping was common in houses until the 1920's and in solder until 1986. If your house was built before then you may still have 'em.
Gunparts still sells barrel blanks and barrels.
A Google search for 'zip gun' returns 13,100,000 results. Including plans and how-to videos.

July 22, 2018, 12:16 PM	#1
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	“Zip Gun" vs. lawful “build your own” rifle Assuming you don’t live in a state with oppressive gun statutes, what’s the difference in building an illegal “zip gun” (as a rifle) and buying or machining all the parts for a speciality rifle (like many here do for precision/ hunting rifles)? Ie where is the line? __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

July 22, 2018, 12:35 PM	#2
dogtown tom Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2006 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 3,072	"The line" is........NFA or not NFA No Federal law prohibits someone from making their own firearm. Most "zip guns" are illegal not due to being a homemade firearm, but because they lack certain features that make them a Title I firearm. Examples: -No rifling in a handgun barrel. -Barrel length of less than 16", OAL of less than 26" for a rifle. -Barrel length of less than 18", OAL of less than 26" for a shotgun. -OAL length of less than 26" for an Other Firearm. Most common "zip guns" will utilize cheap, easily acquired items like lead pipe for the barrel/chamber, nails for the "firing pin", etc. Home Depot doesn't sell rifled lead pipes. So if you want to make a firearm using that, you;ll need to attach a shoulder stock and have a barrel of at least 18". Any shorter and you'll have an illegal SBS. OR Build that smoothbore firearm without a shoulder stock and with an OAL of more than 26" to classify as an Other Firearm. Any shorter and you'll have an illegal AOW. __________________ Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE

July 23, 2018, 12:03 PM	#4
Armorer-at-Law Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 2002 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 465	If it does not fit the above federal definitions, then it may be a Title II (NFA) firearm that requires registration and tax payment. A Form 1 would need to be filed and approved before the build. If it meets the definition of a short barreled rifle (SBR) or short barreled shotgun (SBS), the tax is $200. If it meets the definition of an "any other weapon" (AOW), the tax is $5. __________________ Send lawyers, guns, and money... Armorer-at-Law.com 07FFL/02SOT

July 23, 2018, 12:08 PM	#5
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	I thought an AOW was $200 to build and $5 to transfer. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

July 24, 2018, 02:19 PM	#7
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	Zip guns are generally made with limited tools and resources and almost always subquality materials. Their very nature makes them unsafe and highly unlikely that a mfg license will have been applied for. They may be good for one shot but their best application is for gun buybacks. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

July 22, 2018, 12:36 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,529	There is no federal legal definition of a zip gun. Crude as you like, as long as it meets the requirements for rifle, pistol, or shotgun, it is legal to make for your own use. Just be sure that your piece of radio antenna is 18"+ long and the overall is 26"+ so it counts as a shotgun.

July 24, 2018, 03:02 PM	#8
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,883	Zip guns are almost always going to be smoothbore because making rifling is difficult and more expensive. So, because most will be smoothbore they have to have a barrel at least 18 inches long and overall 26 inches to not fall under NFA regs. Easiest way to skirt that now is do what Franklin Armory did and make straight rifling (i.e. grooves) instead. Doesn't do anything to add accuracy or stabilize a bullet, but it makes any gun with a barrel under 16 inches legal. Would probably work really well for a .45 Colt/.410 zip gun. Low pressures and 000 Buck multi projectiles not being spun by rifling. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

July 24, 2018, 08:01 PM	#12
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	With Dogtown Tom as our compliance director and Zxcebob as the engineering director, I think we have a team! (Sarcasm for the humor impaired) __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

July 27, 2018, 06:40 PM	#16
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	How many tons of lead pipe do you need? Here it is $3K a ton, buy bulk and save. https://tjpbtd.en.made-in-china.com/...B-with-CE.html __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

July 27, 2018, 08:04 PM	#17
K_Mac Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 1,850	Good to know MTT TL. Everything you need in a gun barrel material; soft, heavy, and a low melting point. __________________ "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

July 27, 2018, 09:38 PM	#18
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,457	Numrich (Gun Parts Corp.) used to sell barrel blanks, in various lengths and calibers. Most were unchambered, and I think they were cut-offs from who knows what. Some were a bit pricey, and others were dirt cheap and would be a way to get a rifled barrel for a DIY project.

July 29, 2018, 12:31 PM	#20
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Home Depot doesn't sell lead pipes at all, but you don't have to go to ancient Rome. Lead piping was common in houses until the 1920's and in solder until 1986. If your house was built before then you may still have 'em. Gunparts still sells barrel blanks and barrels. A Google search for 'zip gun' returns 13,100,000 results. Including plans and how-to videos. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

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