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Old July 5, 2018, 11:57 AM   #101
TunnelRat
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I could argue you've been repeating yourself as well. I responded this time because in the context of your metaphor I think the argument for focused exercise still works. My use of ad nauseum wasn't meant as an insult, more as a recognition that this argument isn't going anywhere. Let's call the whole thing off.

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Old July 5, 2018, 04:17 PM   #102
sigxder
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Well we'll use the gym analogy one more time. What you are seeking is to balance your muscle groups. Often you see young guys working the hell out of their biceps because they like the looks of the "big guns". When your tricep is actually two thirds of your arm.
If you have such a muscular imbalance not only does it mean although you have a big ball on the top your arm. Your arm is weak. No matter how much you like to look at that big ball on the top of your arm. Your arm is basically weak. And the imbalance in muscle strength will lead to eventual injury. Because one part of your arm is stronger than another.
So when you go to actually utilize your arm the big bicep won't help your lack of well developed triceps. Having realized your weak in this area yes you do in fact target the triceps to increase the whole arms strength. And make the arm truly strong.
Not just in pulling movements that the biceps are utilized for. But for pushing movements also. Which are for the triceps. But of course you need to realize the imbalance is there to fix it.
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Old July 18, 2018, 08:51 AM   #103
MT 73
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Glad to see the old Point VS Aimed fire debate is alive and well.
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Old July 18, 2018, 09:30 AM   #104
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using your sights in a gunfight is not always necessary or even desirable for effectively placing rounds.” In a panic situation, where an officer is caught in a threat by surprise and perhaps overwhelmed by emotion, he or she may not be able to respond with sufficient control to attain a sight picture in the fraction of time available
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Old July 19, 2018, 09:47 PM   #105
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I don't make it to these forum often enough and have missed most of this thread.

I know a couple of guys over the net that display remarkable ability point shooting at close ranges. IMO there is a crossover point where aimed sight supersedes point shooting. At, as I've heard it called, bad breath distances it's hard to disagree with point shooting but at the 7 yards distance often quoted in shooting data I want to be using sights. I've shot tens of thousands rounds sighted shooting gun games and feel more comfortable seeing my sights aligned and on target. YMMV.
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Old July 20, 2018, 12:56 AM   #106
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Self defense guns art naught be aimed, but pointed, to the target.
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Old July 20, 2018, 04:35 AM   #107
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There is self defense and other self defense. I can concur that most folks think of self defense in terms of facing a large target right in front of them, but there are other facets as well. I very frequently hunt in dense woods and walk trails and pathways made by vehicles in the sand....in the dark. I have a couple pistols set up for this purpose with good night sights and lights under them. Things like snakes, feral hogs and other critters in the night are not a point and shoot situation necessarily.
I think if a person were to be faced with an assailant in the dark, maybe partially hidden behind something, I would like to be able to use my sights as they could make all the difference.
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Old July 20, 2018, 08:44 AM   #108
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A well rounded shooter has both tools available and uses the appropriate tool at the appropriate time/place.
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My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
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Old July 20, 2018, 03:43 PM   #109
HWS
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Home Defense, AR 15, creeping downstairs in the dark using white light.

Right now I have a 2.5x prism optic which is good at point blank BUT I spent two years on irons and feel confident with them and in fact feel they would be faster in the above setting.

Am I wrong?
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Old July 20, 2018, 04:00 PM   #110
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Quote:
A well rounded shooter has both tools available and uses the appropriate tool at the appropriate time/place.
I wish we had a "like" button on TFL. The people arguing this from the either/or position kind of baffle me, to be honest. No reasonable person is going to argue for using sights at contact distance, and the place where a reasonable person transitions from point shooting to sights varies with the person, the assailant, the light, and a blue gazillion other things. I also appreciate the comments of those who pointed out that the transition can be somewhat gradual, something that I knew intuitively but had never thought about hard enough to put into words before.
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Old July 20, 2018, 05:25 PM   #111
rc
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To spray and pray is to die

I've never heard a real experienced gunfighter say sights don't matter.


A lot of people like Jeff Cooper taught that you should use your front sight and press. Be quick, but hit what you are shooting at.


If all you do is bang away in the general direction of an attacker it's only a matter of time before you are going to be hit.


I would agree trigger control is paramount but point shooting past near contact distances should involve some rudimentary aiming.


Also, if you maintain situational awareness, hopefully you won't let anyone get the drop on you. If they do, the chances of making it out alive drops tremendously sights or no sights. If someone you don't know approaches and gives you cause to worry, you should move to cover, place your hand on your gun and watch the other person's hands. Try to gain the advantage before the shooting starts. Why do you think cops put their hand on their gun at a traffic stop sometimes. Just waiting for someone to put you in a bad position is not a good idea.


rc
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Old July 20, 2018, 07:42 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by rc View Post
If someone you don't know approaches and gives you cause to worry, you should move to cover, place your hand on your gun and watch the other person's hands. Try to gain the advantage before the shooting starts. Why do you think cops put their hand on their gun at a traffic stop sometimes. Just waiting for someone to put you in a bad position is not a good idea.


rc
So how do you go to the store exactly, or walk on a sidewalk? Do you just walk around with your hand on your firearm like it's high noon at the OK Corral? I get the point of whole person, hands, demeanor, but the reality is most of us are in places where others are close to us at some point. Obviously the goal is to not let people get close in the first place and that's why maintaining situational awareness is important, but the reality is we're not police and walking around like you're the Waco kid basically broadcasts that you're carrying, which in itself can make you a target. I've run into the same people at the range saying that if I let someone get within 10 yds I've already failed. To me that person is either unrealistic or is willing to not interact with people.


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Old July 21, 2018, 01:29 AM   #113
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It is very unlikely you are going to get attacked in a crowded place unless someone is intent on hurting the group in which case I hope not to be one of the people hit first. I would still seek cover and assess the situation before responding.

More likely is someone is going to follow you out to your car or see you exit a building and move to try and engage you. If you are situationally aware, hopefully you'd have time to take a defensive posture. rc
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Old July 21, 2018, 09:00 AM   #114
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Just because someone is in a parking lot with me doesn't mean that person is going to assault me, unless my car is somehow the only car in the parking lot (and then that person could just be passing through). For all you know the person is walking to his car that happens to be next to yours. I'll wager the money in my pockets that the scenario I described is just as if not more likely than someone being near you assaulting you.

Again I'm not saying situational awareness is not important. What I'm saying is assuming you'll be able to get into cover with a definite heads up that an attack is imminent is a hell of an assumption. Also reaching for your gun any time someone does get close isn't the solution. Drawing on a person many yards away simply because you think they might be a threat is likely to see you charged. Typical engagement distances are very close when it comes to self defense. These are all reasons that having the ability to shoot reflexively is a useful skill to develop.

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Old Yesterday, 08:58 AM   #115
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So after seeing lots of replies (and digging into a lot of videos and articles) my best impression would be basically this:

- There is no "either-or" between techniques, rather "both-and"
- Reflexive, point or even hip-shooting are essential skills because in many situations, the defender is caught by surprise and doesn't have enough time to gain a full sight picture
- If such shooting is necessary, it should be combined with retreat to cover, where aimed fire can take over if escape isn't possible

Basically, aimed fire is always superior to unaimed fire, when the circumstance allows for it. But lacking that, landing shots quickly is the most critical thing.
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