CZ-75 P-01 Shooting Low

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by HiBC

Walt: You will note WVsig has edited his post.There was good reason. The post you read now is far more cordial.
My response was to his original version,which was snarky and disrespectful ,particularly to the moderators and staff here. Frank Ettin was a significant contributor in the thread I suggested,and Frank Ettin was one of the folks WVsig disrespectfully dismissed.

I absolutely agree that a trigger job is not necessarily a problem and it may be an enhancement.

If you checkout the link to the old thread here on TFL you will have the context.
I had read,here on TFL,it was ill advised to do trigger jobs on carry guns.
I wanted clarification as it did not make sense to me that pulling the original fire control parts out of a Philippine 1911 and replacing them with a Cylinder and Slide Duty and Carry 4 1/2 lb trigger would be a problem. I also was considering putting a duty and carry Apex trigger in my S+W M+P 9C

That thread was quite a discussion.It was food for thought.
Now,back to this thread. The OP is shooting low and left with a new gun,and is considering a trigger kit.
That's fine by me,I think the OP should do whatever makes him happy.

I just suggested being informed first.

I am a bit confused by your suggestion:



As it is apparently in response to the only names I referenced in my thread(Quoting myself)

The reality is that the echo chamber on this forum is strong. There are people who hold admin and Moderator titles that use that position to push their thoughts on the board at times as if it is gospel. It happens all the time in the tactic and training section. It often happens in this section as well. I toned down the verbiage but I stand behind the content. Everytime this topic comes up I ask the same question. Where is the criminal case law? I always ask for someone to site a case that turned a good shoot into a bad one. People I have talked to always stress that a trigger job or trigger work does not equal a dangerous trigger. A light trigger does not mean a dangerous trigger. I can guarantee we all have factory rifle triggers which are lower than pistols with trigger jobs.

As far as knowing or not knowing if the info I have is accurate and correct I will take direct comments from the local DA, Sheriff and others in the business of investigating and convicting those who have been charged over Internet experts
Who form their conclusions on conjecture and not on current law or case law. I take comments from people who work in the state I live in seriously because that it where I spend the majority of my time. Clearly YMMV

[HiBC]

Once again,WVsig,all you and your sidekick Walt Sherill offer is internet opinion.
Which is OK,thats what we do here.

Where we disagree is whether you or your opinion are somehow superior.
You talked to your local DA and a retired DA from a larger city.OK.

In the thread I linked Frank Ettin mentioned attending training conducted by Massad Ayoob on these issues.That thread went 179 posts.There were a number of links to follow for source material.I see no reason to service you by cutting and pasting them.


I clearly stated up front I'm not a lawyer or legal expert.Itwould be silly and inappropriate for me to cite and argue case law.(note,YOU have cited no case law to prove anything)

Instead,I asked those who are lawyers for advice. I listen to what they tell me.

You dismiss them as echo chamber because they don't agree with Your Highness.

Your opinion does not rate higher than anyone else here. Including me.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by HiBC

Once again,WVsig,all you and your sidekick Walt Sherill offer is internet opinion.
Which is OK,thats what we do here.

Where we disagree is whether you or your opinion are somehow superior.
You talked to your local DA and a retired DA from a larger city.OK.

In the thread I linked Frank Ettin mentioned attending training conducted by Massad Ayoob on these issues.That thread went 179 posts.There were a number of links to follow for source material.I see no reason to service you by cutting and pasting them.


I clearly stated up front I'm not a lawyer or legal expert.Itwould be silly and inappropriate for me to cite and argue case law.(note,YOU have cited no case law to prove anything)

Instead,I asked those who are lawyers for advice. I listen to what they tell me.

You dismiss them as echo chamber because they don't agree with Your Highness.

Your opinion does not rate higher than anyone else here. Including me.

Why did you even bring it up? It has nothing to do with the OP. Nothing in his post state this is a defensive firearm but you felt the need to interject about the legal jeopardy of a trigger job. One has to ask why.

Yes what I have stated is my opinion but it is based in research, direct conversations with legal professionals, Elite firearms trainers and LEO. Last time I talked with Ken Hackathorn he stated that Mass is often misquoted by people about trigger jobs and guns with good triggers. He said 99% of the time when people say don't modify a trigger they site Mass.

Ken stated that he has talked with Mass about the subject multiple times and basically Mass and KH agree don't make the trigger ridiculous but there is nothing wrong with a good 4lb stock 1911 trigger so why would a 4lb trigger in a Sig, CZ, Glock etc... be a problem. Ken was shooting a Wilson Combat EDC-X9 with a 3.5-4lb trigger. He carries it along with a Hackathorn Special with the same trigger weight.

Oh and Larry Vickers agreed basically saying don't so anything stupid like a sub 2lb trigger but a good clean, reliable trigger is worth doing. Again I will take the word of a guy like KH, Larry Vickers and their direct conversations with Mass over a 179 post thread in the echo chamber.

[GarandTd]

You guys should start a separate thread....

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by GarandTd

You guys should start a separate thread....

I tried to get it back on topic but HiBC does not seem to want to talk about the OPs P01. To get back on topic the OP should shoot the gun more before doing a trigger job. In my experience with the 8+ CZ pistols they tend to smooth out after 300 rounds. Some people dry fire them to smooth them out but I think shooting does it faster and better. If after 300 rounds it is still not to the OPs liking sendit to CGW. The only downside of that move is any CZ you ever get will have to go to them. LOL

This is my all Steel PO1 which has a CGW Pro Package installed with their night Sights, extended thumb safety and slim alum grips.

[HiBC]

WVsig:[QUOTEWhy did you even bring it up? It has nothing to do with the OP. Nothing in his post state this is a defensive firearm but you felt the need to interject about the legal jeopardy of a trigger job. One has to ask why][/QUOTE]

I simply suggested being informed. I also suggested some break in time.

My question to you: Why did you make a big issue out of a small suggestion?

That is a total myth... Please site case law where a gun with a trigger job turned a good defensive shooting into a bad one. I have spoken with my local DA and the former DA in a larger city in my state and both agree that the gun itself will not be part of the equation to determine if you are going to be charged in a defensive shootings. The gun stock vs modified will not be part of the investigation.

Totally unnecessary,and that was the thread diversion. What business was it of yours?

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by WVsig

....I have spoken with my local DA and the former DA in a larger city in my state and both agree that the gun itself will not be part of the equation to determine if you are going to be charged in a defensive shootings. The gun stock vs modified will not be part of the investigation....

Two DAs in one, small State translates to everywhere all the time?

On the other hand, on this audio attorney Andrew Branca is interviewed and explains why modifications which affect the firing functions of a gun are a bad idea when you plan to carry the gun or use it for self defense. Mr. Branca is an attorney (formerly in Massachusetts and now in Colorado) who has specialized in self defense law since 1997.

The interview is somewhat long but very much worth listening to.

And Marty Hayes provide an interesting article on the subject here, in the September 2013 edition of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network Journal.

[Walt Sherrill]

Thanks for the links.

Audio: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/wom...?autoplay=true

I listened to the audio and heard what I'd call a lot of conjectures and educated guesses. The fact that they were EDUCATED guesses doesn't change the fact that they were GUESSES (or assumptions). I heard NOTHING about actual cases where, because a gun was modified, a GOOD shoot became a bad ONE. That was the topic of this part of the discussion.

The attorney in the audio said gun modifications might let a prosecutor argue that a shooting done in self defense be prosecuted as a negligent discharge. But he didn't offer any evidence that such a thing has happened – or if it did happen, that the prosecutor won the case.

The speaker and the ladies made the point that when UNDER STRESS and AFFECTED BY ADRENALINE, you're not going to know whether the trigger is 3 lb. or 6 lb. - or whether the trigger was heavy or if there was grunge or not. Probably true. Many of us, in that context, might not notice the difference.

In the example the attorney cited, using random targets and random guns and some induced stress, he suggested that the shooter was unlikely to notice a difference in the guns. What was NOT addressed was whether the RESULTS of the shooter using the different guns, were different. While the shooter may not have noticed a difference, the targets may have been greatly different!

The attorney argued that any safety mechanism should never be removed. This included his assertion that a magazine safety should never be removed – because something put there by the manufacturer is there for a reason. Having made that point, he doesn't address whether there are potential prosecutorial consequences if a gun buyer chooses a version of that same gun without a magazine safety (an M&P Pro is an example). Does buying an M&P Pro put you at prosecutorial risk? How about the absence of a safety on a striker fired gun? Some have them, some do not.

A good defense attorney might argue that while the magazine safety was there for a reason in the original design, unless the “modified” gun was fired when the magazine was removed, the magazine safety's absence is irrelevant. And, if the weapon was fired INTENTIONALLY, as a self-defense action, when the magazine was removed, it's absence may have protected the shooter. If, on the other hand, there was a negligent (unintended) discharge that resulted in harm, then the prosecutor has a point – but that doesn't turn a good shoot into a bad one.

Second Link: https://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org...2013?showall=1

In the second link, the ONLY actual reference to case law I found had to do with negligent (accidental) discharges due to a too-light trigger. That was not a GOOD SHOOT. Otherwise, the content of those pages seemed similar to the audio.

An unspoken point in all of this: even if you win a case with a modified gun, it may still cost you time and money. Lawyers aren't free. A modified gun MIGHT, in some cases, make you more likely to be a survivor in lethal force exchange, but that is also a conjecture not backed by evidence.

As I noted previously, what can follow from a civil case may be profoundly different -- those cases are a different beast! But, some of the same points in my responses above, defending modifications or attacking the underlying assumptions of the prosecutor, should apply in civil cases, too. Just find a good attorney.

If YOU, Mr. Ettin, as someone with some experience in this area, can help us find some examples of gun modifications that have turned a GOOD shoot into a BAD one, you may convince some of us. Then what some of us think is a “MYTH” may be viewed as fact.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Walt Sherrill

....The fact that they were EDUCATED guesses doesn't change the fact that they were GUESSES (or assumptions). I heard NOTHING about actual cases where, because a gun was modified, a GOOD shoot became a bad ONE. That was the topic of this part of the discussion. ....

As we've said before, all opinions aren't equal. Branca's (and Hayes') educated opinions are much better and more useful than your uneducated guesses. And since you have so little actual knowledge of law or the legal system you have no real understanding of what information is available.

Spats McGee and I have discussed this before. The only information on cases generally available are the published reports of courts of appeal decisions. That represents a tiny proportion of the total universe of cases. A case reaches a court of appeal only when a lower court makes an appealable, dispositive decision which the aggrieved party wants to challenge as being based on on error of law. And a court of appeal will be addressing in its decision only errors of law claimed by the appellant to have been made by the lower court.

Then of course, a gun modification will come up at a trial only if the gun was indeed modified. How many people who have guns for self defense have had modifications made to their guns. Gun owners aren't necessarily enthusiasts, and many (if not the majority) of gun owners who might use a gun for self defense probably are using a box stock gun.

And in the real world there is frequently no body of cases on a particular point of interest. Lawyers are continually having to form opinions based on their knowledge of basic principles and their experience -- knowledge and experience which you lack. And successful lawyers have a track record of good opinions reflecting good, professional judgment.

Originally Posted by Walt Sherrill

...you may convince some of us....

I have no need to convince anyone of anything. You will do whatever you want to do, and what happens to you will not be my problem.

On the other hand, some of us have decided that we have no wish to add yet more uncertainty to a situation already fraught with enough.

[Don P]

Right on point to what Frank has eluded to^^^^^^^^^
As he has stated and Mas preaches in his classes why add more to the problem at hand that will very likely have to be overcome at trial.
IE: reloads used, trigger work done, safety devices altered or removed. We never know what will transpire or what course the DA will persue in the courtroom

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

As we've said before, all opinions aren't equal. Branca's (and Hayes') educated opinions are much better and more useful than your uneducated guesses. And since you have so little actual knowledge of law or the legal system you have no real understanding of what information is available.

Spats McGee and I have discussed this before. The only information on cases generally available are the published reports of courts of appeal decisions. That represents a tiny proportion of the total universe of cases. A case reaches a court of appeal only when a lower court makes an appealable, dispositive decision which the aggrieved party wants to challenge as being based on on error of law. And a court of appeal will be addressing in its decision only errors of law claimed by the appellant to have been made by the lower court.

Then of course, a gun modification will come up at a trial only if the gun was indeed modified. How many people who have guns for self defense have had modifications made to their guns. Gun owners aren't necessarily enthusiasts, and many (if not the majority) of gun owners who might use a gun for self defense probably are using a box stock gun.

And in the real world there is frequently no body of cases on a particular point of interest. Lawyers are continually having to form opinions based on their knowledge of basic principles and their experience -- knowledge and experience which you lack. And successful lawyers have a track record of good opinions reflecting good, professional judgment.

I have no need to convince anyone of anything. You will do whatever you want to do, and what happens to you will not be my problem.

On the other hand, some of us have decided that we have no wish to add yet more uncertainty to a situation already fraught with enough.

While I agree all opinions aren't equal, it's relatively common to find multiple people in the same field with differing opinions. WVsig has said the legal sources he talked to were doubtful it would be an issue. Those people assumedly know something about the law or legal system and would also be familiar with additional cases besides those published. It could well be that your legal experience dwarfs theirs, but I don't know that we know that.

Again, I choose not to modify triggers myself.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

...While I agree all opinions aren't equal, it's relatively common to find multiple people in the same field with differing opinions. WVsig has said the legal sources he talked to were doubtful it would be an issue. Those people assumedly know something about the law or legal system and would also be familiar with additional cases besides those published.....

However, at the very least the differing opinions of Branca and Hayes suggest that the opinions of the lawyers WVsig says he talked with might not reflect a universal truth. And indeed no one has ever said that a trigger job on self defense gun was guaranteed to be a problem -- only that it could be one.

So --

• Even if modifications made to your self defense gun might not hurt you in court, they aren't going to help you in court.
  
  
• If it turns out in your case that the modifications you made to your carry gun are being used against you, it will be too late to rethink having done them. On the other hand, modifications you didn't make won't be a problem in court.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

However, at the very least the differing opinions of Branca and Hayes suggest that the opinions of the lawyers WVsig says he talked with might not reflect a universal truth. And indeed no one has ever said that a trigger job on self defense gun was guaranteed to be a problem -- only that it could be one.

So --

• Even if modifications made to your self defense gun might not hurt you in court, they aren't going to help you in court.
  
  
• If it turns out in your case that the modifications you made to your carry gun are being used against you, it will be too late to rethink having done them. On the other hand, modifications you didn't make won't be a problem in court.

Absolutely it doesn't mean WVsig is universally right. My point was merely there are differing opinions.

I don't really see anyone here denying that not making modifications is likely the safest option, that's pretty obvious. The debate seems to be how much of a problem modifications might cause. I do wonder if some here are more worried about it than the OP, who seems merely to have responded recently to just give us an update on his shooting progress and not really to go into the legal consequences of modified triggers.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

...The debate seems to be how much of a problem modifications might cause.....

That's absolutely correct. And there is also absolutely no way to know. How much of a problem modifications might be in court will depend on all the circumstances of the particular case -- all things that haven't happened yet, all things which are unpredictable, and things which one mostly has no control over.

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

...I do wonder if some here are more worried about it than the OP, who seems merely to have responded recently to just give us an update on his shooting progress and not really to go into the legal consequences of modified triggers....

And that's an excellent point.

So discussion of the legal issues of modified guns in self defense incidents ends now.

[HiBC]

Walt Sherrill

The weight of the bullet (115 vs 124) can't have THAT MUCH effect that close; it's only when you get out to greater distances (30 yds+) that you start to notice measurable differences.

The differences are due more to bullet speed than bullet weight, as most light rounds are faster than heavier ones. Bullets, regardless of their weight, drop at the same rate. That means, if the targets are set at the same distance, the lighter bullet gets there sooner and has dropped less.

Not accurate. At 30 yard ranges,drop is not very significant.

I'veworked with Cowboy Action Shooters who are understandably reluctant to makealterations to their fixed sights.Often,thePOI can be tuned significantly with bullet weight and powder burn rate.

The reason is the gun begins to move from recoil before the bullet exits the muzzle.Since the hand is below the bore,the facrory sighting compensates for this to some degree.

Bullet weight and bore dwell time influence how much the muzzle will move before the bullet exits.

A general rule to hope for is a heavier bullet will shoot higher,but,its hard to second guess the powder impulse beyong bore dwell time.

I have moved POI around a foot at 20 yds or so in a 45 Colt Uberti single action withload development.

A 9mm 147 gr bullet might shoot to a significantly different POI than a 115.

At SD ranges,I'd expect the 147 to print higher. But you have to try it and see.

[GarandTd]

I usually run 115 gr 9mm rounds and have noticed a significant change in poi at ranges under 25 yards with 124. A friend of mine with a Beretta 92 9mm was complaining about his fixed sights being off. He always shoots 115gr. I suggested he try 124gr to see if there is an improvement. I don't know if he ever did. I have adjustable sights and can change them to accommodate different ammunition and it's poi.

It has been my experience that the heavier bullet weights impact higher.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by GarandTd

I usually run 115 gr 9mm rounds and have noticed a significant change in poi at ranges under 25 yards. A friend of mine with a Beretta 92 9mm. Was complaining about his fixed sights being off. He always shoots 115gr. I suggested he try 124gr to see if there is an improvement. I don't know if he ever did. I have adjustable sights and can change them to accommodate different bullet weights.

We had a LONG discussion on this topic here on the forum a couple of months ago. I learned a lot in that discussion, and one of the participants here, a guy going by the handle of 45_auto, very patiently gave us all a very thorough and technical explanation of what controls effect bullet weight and recoil have on points of impact. I'm presenting the gist of his explanation in a much simpler form, below. (He dealt with the physics and provided the math. And while it was all above my pay grade, even I understood.)

For a given bullet weight bullet speed is what affects whether the bullet hits higher or lower. Why? Because gravity pulls a light and heavy bullet down at the same rate, but a faster bullet will get to the target sooner, and will have dropped less when it hits. Generally speaking, bullet weight isn't the controlling factor -- bullet velocity is what matters.

If you could find 115 gr. rounds that travel at 1200 fps and 147 gr. rounds that travel at 1200 fps, they should hit the target at the same time and at the same height -- all other things being equal.

Barrel rise (from recoil) isn't as big an issue as you might expect, either -- because with a semi-auto only a small amount of recoil force is transferred to the frame before the bullet has left the barrel. The whole barrel (and the slide) is moving to the rear at first and the bullet leaves the barrel before the slide and barrel have moved 1/10th of an inch or less! That limited rearward movement means that only a small amount of the recoil force has been applied to the as the bullet leaves. Barrel rise can't have much effect on where the bullet goes. Most of any round's recoil becomes more visible and noticeable as the slide continues to the rear.

Revolvers are different, because recoil force is transferred to the frame as soon as the bullet starts to move down the barrel; and the barrel starts to rise as the gun tries to pivot in the shooter's hand.

If, as you state above, you see heavier bullets hitting higher than lighter bullets, it may be that those rounds are moving more quickly (have a higher velocity) than than the lighter rounds -- and that certainly COULD be the case if you're using heavier but more-potent and costly self-defense rounds.

Some time back -- before a number of us were educated by 45_auto -- I did comparisons of 115 gr, 124 gr, and 147 gr. shots on targets set about 30' out, shooting from a rest. I couldn't see the difference. Many of us don't notice a big difference until you get BEYOND 20 yards -- and I have a hard time even seeing the targets at that distance.

[GarandTd]

My experience with 124gr 9mm was 1 box of 50 vs dozens of the 115gr. It was fmj ball, not hi-test defensive ammo. It was by no means a test and certainly not scientific.

[HiBC]

Walt: I don't have the benefit of the post at the moment.I may try to search it.

There are interior ballistics and exterior ballistics.

For exterior ballistics,we start as the bullet leaves the barrel.With minor variances to inaccuracies aside,the exit path of the bullet is the centerline of the bore. At that instant,gravity begins to accelerate the bullet toward the earth at a rate of approx. 16 fps per second.

Yes,the time of flight will control drop,and yes,a higher velocity will have less time of flight. So,yes,a higher velocity projectile will drop less.Agreed,no argument.

I contend that at the SD distance,,less than 25 yd handgun ranges the difference in time of flight is so small that the difference in drop between a 800 fps bullet and a 1200 fps bullet is not much.
I contend that the INTERIOR ballistics and recoil impulse do move the muzzle enough to manipulate the POI to a degree. In large part,this is about bore dwell time ,though other factors weigh in.
Velocity certainly does play an important role,as it influences bore time.As a high velocity bullet exits sooner,there is less time for muzzle rise,and so via interior ballistics,the higher vel bullet would tend to shoot lower.

The low vel bullet spends more time in the bore,so it shoots higher,generally.

And a heavy,slow bullet will launch a little higher.

There is a simple way to demonstrate that the pistol makers design for this,if you have access to a laser bore sight device.

Choose a range distance,put a target spot on the wall. Aim the sights precisely on the target.You may need an assistant to see the dot,but the dot will ordinarily be low. From the laser spot to the POI will be the muzzle lift during bore dwell time.

If you choose to follow this link,you will see remarkable high speed photos of bullets leaving handgun muzzles. Note that when the bullet is still right at the muzzle or within 2 inches,you can see that there is sufficient recoil impulse that the recoil operated slides have moved back from about .100 in to .200 in. against a approx. 14 lb plus spring. That moves the gun.
For a 5 in bbl over 25 yds, deflection would be multiplied 180 times. One tenth inch would be 18 inches at 25 yds.
Unless you use your handguns from benched on sandbags,you really cant test this from sandbags. The gun has to be able to naturally recoil in your hands.

http://kuulapaa.com/home/highspeed/pistols.html

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by HiBC

I contend that at the SD distance,,less than 25 yd handgun ranges the difference in time of flight is so small that the difference in drop between a 800 fps bullet and a 1200 fps bullet is not much.
I contend that the INTERIOR ballistics and recoil impulse do move the muzzle enough to manipulate the POI to a degree. In large part,this is about bore dwell time ,though other factors weigh in.
Velocity certainly does play an important role,as it influences bore time.As a high velocity bullet exits sooner,there is less time for muzzle rise,and so via interior ballistics,the higher vel bullet would tend to shoot lower.

When you examine the photos associated with the link at the bottom of your post, it's interesting to see that there is virtually no visible barrel rise with any of the guns in the videos -- even though the bullet is out of the gun; the slide has barely moved. (The barrel rise should be visible in the gas/smoke patterns, which would be disrupted by barrel movement. It doesn't seem to be.)

You've assumed barrel rise with heavier bullets. You've assumed the conclusion of your point as the starting point for your argument! We're talking about locked-breech semi autos, and that's a key factor. You've made an assumption, but have not offered evidence. Offer us some evidence. And what role does velocity play in your explanation?

I agree that at SD distance the differences between heavier/slower bullets is almost irrelevant. But I'd argue that if the velocity of a heavy bullet and a light bullet are the same, you won't see a difference -- they'll come out of the barrel with the same barrel rise, and they'll hit the target at the same place!!

I'll continue to argue that unless aerodynamic affects bullet flight, the only way a heavier bullet can hit higher than a lighter bullet of the same caliber is that if the lighter bullet moves more slowly. Gravity is the constant.

Note: Most of what I relate in the following comments was made clear to many of us in a discussion we had some time back here on TFL. 45_auto gave us a class in physics and ballistics, and handgun operation, and did it very effectively. I hope I've got the details right; if not, perhaps 45_auto is around, to correct my mistakes or misunderstandings. You'll find a link below to the original discussion (with all of the pertinent proofs), if what I've written doesn't seem to make sense.

The amount of barrel rise is more significant with revolvers, rifles, and fixed barrel semi-autos -- as recoil force is immediately transferred to the shooter without any delay and only limited attenuation with some action types. With fixed barrel designs a heavier bullet moving more slowly will affect barrel rise differently than a faster bullet that is lighter and moving more quickly. But if both bullets are moving at the same speed (in and out of the barrel), they should experience the same barrel rise and hit the target at the same time and height even if the bullet weights are different. (At greater distances, other factors can come into play.)

With a locked breech semi-auto, the moving barrel and slide DELAY the transfer of recoil to the frame. But, because the bullet leaves the barrel of a locked breech semi-auto before the barrel has moved more than a fraction of an inch (maybe 1/10") the only recoil force transferred to the frame at that point is through the partially compressed recoil spring. Barrel rise just isn't that different based on bullet weight.

The barrel can't begin to rise until it begins to push back against the shooter's hand, indirectly, through the frame. With a locked breech semi auto there will be a small amount of force transferred to the frame in that first 1/10th of an inch of slide travel (via the recoil spring being slightly compressed and pressing against the frame) -- but not much. Most of the round's recoil transfer takes place AFTER bullet has left the barrel and the slide and barrel continue to the rear and hit their stops.

There are a number of high speed digital videos of locked-breech semi-autos being fired on YouTube, and you can see almost NO visible barrel rise until AFTER the bullet has gone.

Originally Posted by HiBC

The low vel bullet spends more time in the bore,so it shoots higher,generally.

And a heavy,slow bullet will launch a little higher.

With a locked breech semi-auto, the time a bullet spends in the barrel may be greater with a slower, heavier bullet, but the amount of bullet travel and barrel rise is NOT significantly different because of bullet speed or weight. The bullet still leaves the barrel when the barrel and slide have traveled a mere fraction of an inch, and rise is limited because there has been very little recoil force transferred to the frame at that point in the firing cycle.

That's because the relationship of the bullet to the barrel and slide is a FIXED PHYSICAL RELATIONSHIP that is not affected by bullet speed or bullet weight. It's important to remember that locked-breech semi-autos work differently than the other designs mentioned -- with recoil transferred differently.

Recoil in a revolver or fixed barrel semi-auto is like holding a hammer at the bottom of the handle, and recoil is like someone pushing on the face of the hammer. (The recoil is really pushing the back of the slide to the rear, not pushing against the front -- as the bullet moves in the other direction.) If you push against the face of hammer head or tug on the back of it (simulating recoil in a fixed-barrel weapon) the hammer head will describe an arc and the face of the hammer will rise as it moves in the arc defined by the hammer's handle. That's similar to barrel rise from recoil.

With a locked-breech semi-auto, the hammer head is, in effect, spring-loaded and can move a bit to the rear before the full effect of the push against the hammer's face is transferred to the handle enough to cause the hammer's face to start to rise noticeably.

Locked breech semi-autos are simply different, and because they have a moving barrel and slide, only a small amount of recoil is passed to the frame (the hammer's handle) BEFORE the bullet leaves the barrel. Most of the recoil force (in the barrel and slide) is passed to the frame as they both move to the rear and hit their respective stop points (recoil pins, frame abutments, etc.)

Because of that difference, bullet speed and bullet weight have a very limited effect on barrel rise. And it is bullet velocity more than anything else that affects how much the bullet drops (or doesn't drop) during its flight to the target. As 45_auto shows in his explanations, bullet weights and speeds can affect how far the barrel and slide move before the bullet exits the barrel but the differences, while measurable, are very, very minor. But they can affect/cause differences, however slightly, in barrel rise. I did not appreciate those subtle differences.

With the locked-breech semi-auto, if two bullets are traveling at the same velocity, in identical guns, the bullets (without regard to their weight) are going to leave the barrel at the same time, the gun will experience the same or very similar (and very modest) barrel rise, and will hit the target at the same time -- regardless of bullet weight. The other variables are wind resistance or bullet aerodynamics, and at pistol distances that's not going to be a big factor, and lighter or heavier recoil spring weights, which can subtly affect the amount of recoil force passed to the frame (and how quickly it is transferred) but, again, the difference has to be almost trivial.

Barrel rise in a locked-breech semi-auto is very limited until AFTER the bullet is gone, so barrel rise can only be a very minor player in the bullet's point of impact.

Here's a link to the original discussion I mentioned. I started that discussion with some observations based on tests I had done. I thought I was right, but found that I wasn't. Others took an opposite position, similar to yours, for similar reasons. In the final analysis, most of us were both right and wrong -- generally right for the wrong reasons.

Be warned: this is a very LENGTHY discussion. You'll see many targets showing heavy bullets hitting higher, but nobody ever talked about the velocity of the rounds being fired. (I didn't even THINK about that issue when I did my initial tests of 115 gr., 124 gr., and 147 gr., 9mm ammo. Duh.) Velocity is the important and generally ignored variable.

Read through the link quickly, but wait until you start to see comments from 45_auto before you pay a lot of attention into what you're reading. 45_auto knows what he's talking about, and offers convincing proofs, has an understanding of the physics, and uses the math to support his claims.

The link: https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...oint+of+impact

[HiBC]

Walt: Good thread. Thanks.

I agree 45_Auto is not only credible,he explains well.

And ,I must confess,I've had my understanding re-arranged a bit. Which means I was not 100% correct.(Another way of saying I learned something)

Its also interesting that what my eyes have seen with my experience is still valid..and the thread explains there is a fork in the road between revolvers or fixed breech handguns vs recoiling semi-autos.

It is still a valid observation that I can take primed brass,and an assortment of "makings"...(bullets,powders) ...and a Lee hand press
And go to the range with a single action wheel gun with fixed sights.
I can experiment with loads,and USUALLY improve the POA vs POI.
Its not the same as adjustable sights,its "poke and hope",and its limited,
But I have found loads that transform a single action from "pretty bad,unacceptable" to tin can accuracy at 50 feet or so.
It's an Elmer "hell,I was there" thing.

So I learned the rules are different ,wheel gun to Semi-Auto.

Once again,Thanks

[Walt Sherrill]

I guess I didn't screw it up too badly, then. And. if you read the link, you got the good stuff without my screwups.

45_auto rearranged my understanding a good bit, too. (How much he rearranged my thinking will be obvious to anyone who has the patience to work his or her way through that lengthy linked discussion.) What few people really pay attention to when talking about the effect of heavier or lighter bullet weights is the velocities of the ammo being compared. I never did -- but will, in the future.

This forum is somewhat UNIQUE in its ability to supply people who do understand who are also willing to guide those of us who don't understand but think we do