.50-70 Government smokeless loads

[Pukindog]

I would like to load some .50-70 Gov't loads for my original trapdoor. All of the data I find states not to use smokeless in a .50 trapdoor. I would have thought that there were some loads out there for Trailboss 5744. or ? I really don't want to get involved with black powder at this point.
I would appreciate it if anyone could point me in the right direction.
Thanks, Jeff

[Mike Irwin]

I would follow the advice and keep smokeless loads out of your Trapdoor.

Smokeless powders have much different burning and pressure curves that can stress original guns in ways that black powder never would.

Just my advice.

[mehavey]

Take a look at post #4 [KirkD] here:
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/vi...hp?f=1&t=27410

Whatever you do, don't use Trailboss.
SR4759 (if you can find it now) appears to replicate BP pressure curves,
But I'd follow the advice to use real BP -- it's no big deal in cartridge guns.

Two simple BP provisos:
- Use soft lube (anything from Borebutter to 3:1 Crisco/Beeswax
- Fill the case (2Fg) fully to base of bullet (plus a scoch)
- Use a Large pistol primer

- Wash out/wipe off with a squirt of dish soap in a quart of warm
.. water/then oil. It's actually easier than w/ smokeless

.

[Pukindog]

Thanks guys.
I have been toying with the idea of black for years. I own a C. Sharps 1874 in .45-90, a C. Sharps 1885 High Wall .32-40, a C. Sharps 1895 in .38-55, a couple of .45-70 trapdoors, and a 2nd year production Winchester 1894 in .38-55.
I load all of these with smokeless. Maybe this is all I needed to hear before getting into the black side of things.
Jeff

[mehavey]

Postscript: In addition to soft lube, use soft alloy (no more than 30:1/BHN-5.5* or so)


* No that's not a misprint. Pure lead is actually about 4.5

[44 AMP]

Experts have been looking at this matter for some time, and have some interesting findings. The original black powder guns, fired with duplicates of the original black powder ammo do fail sometimes. (they are, after all, very old) They have a calculated rate of failure, drawn from the actual observed failures. (not talking just blow ups, but things like frames cracking, etc)

SO, this does happen.

They have also found that the same guns (as a group) fail at a higher rate when fired with "safe" smokeless powder loads. (again, not dangerous blow up fails, but structural fails that render the gun unsafe to use again)

They say black powder only for these guns, not because they love black powder, but because they love the old guns and their experience says the old guns will last longest shooting only black powder.

In modern reproductions of the old guns (C.Sharps is one) smokeless powder loads in the proper pressure range are no concern at all.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I load smokeless in my 50-70...

... I however, shoot them in an older looser Martini... been a long time since I loaded cartridges for it, so I don't remember what I used for powder ( long before Trailboss came out )

I do shoot Trailboss in a lot of black powder era guns though ( 20-40 different guns & calibers )... & I'm quite confident I could shoot it in a Trapdoor safely... one big point to remember though, is Trailboss will have an initial pressure spike, higher / different than black powder, or slower smokeless powders, at similar velocities, & loads will have to be lighter / lower velocity than would be achieved with black powder or other more slow burning smokeless... it is, however safe to load at these reduced velocities, because of both it's burn properties, & it's bulk density...

in fact I would go as far to say, that if you were willing to live with pop gun velocities, or just slightly higher... that you could more safely for the gun, load with a reduced charge of Trailboss than you could with most any other powder...

[Gaucho Gringo]

The .50-70 rifles were made out of original Springfield muzzle loading rifles. The top of the breach of the barrels were cut and machined and the trapdooor top was added and the barrels were sleeved to .50. The .45-70 rifles started with a separate receiver which had the trapdoor and the barrel was screwed in the receiver. The newer .45-70's are stronger than the .50-70's which are just reworked muzzle loading rifles. I would feel much safer with a design built rifle than a conversion which was based on a hurry up wartime production rifle with somewhat suspect metallurgy. I wouldn't want to fire smokeless out of a .50-70 but then again that's just me.

[Pukindog]

Thanks again for the advice.

Jeff

[Dragonflydf]

Stay with Blackpowder loads and your 50-70 will be around for another century.
I can't understand why people want to shoot smokeless out of gun designed for blackpowder cartridge, you never hear of someone wanting to shoot smokeless out of a 1863 muzzle loader.

I have 2 Trapdoors and the fun part of shooting them is the boom and smoke.

[chiefr]

I would follow the advice and keep smokeless loads out of your Trapdoor.

Smokeless powders have much different burning and pressure curves that can stress original guns in ways that black powder never would.

Just my advice.

I own and shoot an 1866 Allin and a 1871 Remington in 50-70. I Shoot a number of antique cartridge rifles. Been involved in BP shooting before the cowboy craze.
Agree entirely with Mr. Irvin. These guns are not designed to smokeless powder and I for one will not risk destroying these guns with smokeless.

In near 50 yrs of being around BP and classic firearms, I have personally seen 3 that were totally destroyed to include an special order 1886 Win and 1873 Springfield. All the shooters were shooting smokeless.

[Mike Irwin]

"These guns are not designed to shoot black powder..."

Uhm... then what are they designed to shoot?

"Mr. Irvin..."

Who he?

[chiefr]

Corrected, thanks Mike ^^^^^