![]() |
|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
![]() |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
![]() |
#26 | ||
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 30,067
|
Quote:
Quote:
This was in 1974. In the late 80s I loaded some near max 125gr .357 using 2400. Ammo was fired from a 6" model 19, and did 1620fps. It was also too hot for the test gun, cases would not extract under finger pressure. Same ammo fired in a 6" Model 28, velocity was 1670fps and cases did extract from finger pressure alone. Same ammo was run through a Desert Eagle (nominally a 6" barrel) Velocity was 1720fps and the gun ran flawlessly. Point here is that different guns do different things and the book results are only guidelines and no guarantee of what the gun and ammo in your hand will actually do. Also, don't obsess over a handful (or even a double handful) of fps. Another gun might be that much faster, or slower than yours. Possibly even more.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
#27 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 18, 2020
Location: Seguin Texas
Posts: 766
|
Obsess……… Nobody does that on this forum
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 11,296
|
I would carry 45 if I could be assured I would only be attacked by one thug. I would carry 9mm if I could be assured that I would only be attacked by at least 2-4 thugs at a time.
My crystal ball says ....... "carry a 10mm with lead hollow-points". |
![]() |
![]() |
#29 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 30,067
|
According to Jack Reacher, take out the leader, and one, maybe two wingmen and the rest always run.
and then there's the comedy bit with the gang leader and a dozen or so gang members facing down the hero character. Head badguy sneers, "what you gonna do, shoot ALL of us??" to which the good guy replies, "No, but I can shoot YOU!" And the bad guy leader says "oh,...yeah, I always forget that part...." ![]() ![]() Point here is, it isn't 5, or 6 or 8 or 17 that wins the fight, its tactics and effective use of what you have. And, that includes your feet....
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
![]() |
![]() |
#30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Location: Thornton, Texas
Posts: 4,030
|
The Thompson-LaGarde tests of 1904 compared the 9mm and the 45ACP and others. Read that for real data. The data from those tests gave us the 45ACP for the military. It’s very interesting.
They tested ammo on live horses and cows and human cadavers. |
![]() |
![]() |
#31 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 26, 2016
Posts: 1,621
|
Quote:
I suppose it's good data if you plan on shooting live horses and cows and human cadavers. For self defense against live humans, I suggest Ellifritz’s data. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#32 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 18, 2020
Location: Seguin Texas
Posts: 766
|
1904 basically sums this data up.
|
![]() |
![]() |
#33 |
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 25,407
|
Some material relating to the Thompson Lagarde testing.
https://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/TLGR/TLGR6/tlgr6.html https://sightm1911.com/lib/history/b...nd.htm#cadaver
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
![]() |
![]() |
#34 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,772
|
Quote:
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#35 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,787
|
In reading the results of the linked test, i find fault with the “cadaver” portion in that they seem to be interested in how much “sway” was caused in a hanging body. That does not seem relevant to terminal wound ballistics.
That is the same train of thought that led to the idea that the ability to knock over a steel plate or a bowling pin off a table made that cartridge a good fighting round. Ive never been attacked by a steel plate or a bowling pin, but ive seen A few people shot with handguns of different calibers. The only good “stops” ive seen were CNS hits. Sometimes folks gave up after being hit, but sometimes they kept going. I personally had a guy that after being hit center chest, run 3 blocks, jump a fence, try to hide his gun in a carport storage closet (clearly thinking at that point) and then hide himself in a bunch of bushes on the side of a highway. Thst was with a thru and thru wound from high center chest exiting just above his kidney (shot was from a slightly elevated position). I also saw a guy on a training range shoot himself in the leg with a .45acp Hydro-shok. His leg did not disappear in a puff of red mist and he did not go down. Grunted and said some choice words. No pistol round is a good stopper. Balance is whats needed. Recoil control, capacity, weight (weapon & ammo). Find the sweet spot for you and go to work. |
![]() |
![]() |
#36 | |
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 25,407
|
Quote:
I suspect that they were still in the mode of believing that actual "knockdown" power was a thing. In which case, measuring momentum could make sense. Now we know that even tremendously powerful cartridges don't transfer enough momentum to knock a person down. There are a lot of issues with the testing. To be fair, I'm not sure how they could have done much better than they did with the tools they had at the time. That doesn't make the results of the test any more useful, of course.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Location: Thornton, Texas
Posts: 4,030
|
The point was made that the 45ACP was not part of the Thompson-LaGuarde testing. But several 45 calibers were used, with bullet weight and velocity similar to the 45ACP. And the determination was stated that no caliber of less than 45 should be used. Has there ever been more extensive testing on pistol calibers? Personally, though I don’t own a 45 of any type, I’d expect more ‘knockdown’ from that over a 9mm.
|
![]() |
![]() |
#38 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 26, 2016
Posts: 1,621
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#39 | |
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 25,407
|
Quote:
As far as effectiveness in real-world gunfights goes, to date, no one has been able to show that within the general service pistol caliber performance class, there is any benefit to using one caliber over another.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#40 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Location: Thornton, Texas
Posts: 4,030
|
Well, let me ask you whether you’d want a 9mm or a 45ACP if you had one shot to use on a bear that was coming to kill you. Might be that neither would save us, but I’d go for the 45.
Or, let’s go back to the Moro Rebellion and the failure of the 38 to stop people intent on killing you. Same choice of 9mm or 45ACP. Your choice. One bullet. Stopping people is the reason for the 45ACP being picked by the military. The 9mm was an option that they declined. |
![]() |
![]() |
#41 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 12,382
|
Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Long_Colt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#42 | ||
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 30,067
|
Quote:
Quote:
![]() After the poor performance of the .38 Long Colt during the Moro uprising, and the Army reissuing .45 Colt SAAs to help counter that, the people running the Army had a sour taste about .38 caliber pistols. They did, however, have a respect for how well the .45 calibers worked, but not every .45. The Army actually rejected Browning's original .45ACP loading, which was a 200gr @ 900fps. What they insisted on, and got, was the 230 @ 850+/- which duplicated the US Govt/,45 Schoefield load they were well familiar with, using a jacketed bullet.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
#43 | |||
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 25,407
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
|||
![]() |
![]() |
#44 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 12,382
|
45 vs 9mm interesting test
Quote:
38 Long Colt has noticeably less energy than either 9mm Luger or 45 ACP. Harkening back to the poor performance of the 38 Long Colt in reference to the specific argument in this thread shows an ignorance of the cartridges in question. Just because 38 Long Colt and 9mm Luger have similar bullet diameters does not mean they are equivalent in performance. Last edited by TunnelRat; December 8, 2024 at 03:34 AM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#45 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 1,356
|
It used to be the one advantage the 45 had over the 9 is versatility, you could buy common hollowpoints for self defense but also hardcast lead wadcutters for bear defense. There's a couple options now in 9mm for hardcast or solid copper penetrators for bear defense, penetration is virtually the same.
__________________
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2 |
![]() |
![]() |
#46 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Location: Thornton, Texas
Posts: 4,030
|
I really don’t think any of you would choose the 9mm over the 45 to defend yourself against a bear or doped up Guy with a short sword that was intent on chopping you into chunks.
|
![]() |
![]() |
#47 | |
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 25,407
|
Quote:
Think about that for awhile. The caliber debate has been going on for a very long time. In all that time, no one has been able to come up with conclusive proof that there's a real world practical difference in shooting outcomes when comparing calibers in the service pistol performance class. Tell me, what makes more sense in light of that fact that. Assuming that there is a real-world practical difference that's so small no one can detect it and choosing a caliber based on that undetectable difference? Or assuming that since no one can prove the difference exists in 100 years of trying that it must be such a small difference that it's pointless to worry about it?
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#48 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 12,382
|
45 vs 9mm interesting test
Quote:
You don’t know me. In the situations you’re describing I would be more interested in any differences in the pistols in question than whether or not one was in 9mm or 45 ACP. As an example that even 45 ACP is not a guarantee, officer Jared Reston was shot 7 times with a 45 ACP, 4 of those times not in the vest and one of those right in his face. He kept fighting and killed his assailant. https://lockedback.com/lessons-jared...mes-still-won/ https://www.policemag.com/patrol/art...ida-01-26-2008 Here’s a story of an assailant shot 14 times with 45 ACP. https://www.police1.com/officer-shoo...BbLYpnqqHxwMq/ Last edited by TunnelRat; December 8, 2024 at 10:22 AM. Reason: Found more detailed articles |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#49 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,787
|
ALL Defensive pistols SUCK at stopping human attackers. Dont use one if given another option.
As stated above. The difference between 9 and 45 is SO small that no one has been able to show it. DESPITE this caliber debate going on for mtpl decades. A slightly better tasting crap sandwhich is still crappy. |
![]() |
![]() |
#50 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 1,356
|
What is the advantage the 45 has?
__________________
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2 |
![]() |
![]() |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|