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Old November 12, 2017, 01:26 PM   #101
Glenn E. Meyer
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If you are concerned with accuracy, then choosing a 5 shot gun without lots of training, is not a wise course.

The idea that you will be deadly accurate with a difficult gun to shoot and that someone who has a higher capacity will be an inaccurate spray and pray shooter doesn't hold merit.

You speak of a five shot volley. You don't shoot volley fire. You shoot what you can accurately hit.

Reloading off speed strips in a stress situation isn't the world's easiest feat. If you carry 15 rounds, carry it in a manner that isn't a slow stress trap.

This has become the typical argument - guess what learn how to use your gun and all this 5 shot, spray and pray becomes meaningless rhetoric.

I have trained with the snubbies and higher capacity guns and competed with both. I know there limitations and to be blunt and if you take offense, I'm sorry but training is more important than this discussion.

People have researched small gun accuracy, whether firing a volley and looking for cover has any meaning and similar incidents.

The small gun is a basically a one opponent, close up mugger, gas station robbery gun. It can be used for more intense long distance work but at a disadvantage and you'd better train up. The square range isn't training.
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Old November 12, 2017, 02:32 PM   #102
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I already know that I have to train a lot with my revolver, but thanks for the advice. In fact, I trained with it for six months before feeling comfortable enough to start carrying it.

As for the volley, don't read more into it than what was there. What I was referring to was being limited to five rounds before having to reload, not shooting off five rounds rapidly. Even though I find it unnecessary at times, I get that you moderators have to get specific about things so people don't get wrong impressions.

So, is your opinion that higher capacity magazines do or don't help to create spray and pray situations? I think it's a valid question that fits in with this thread.
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Old November 12, 2017, 02:32 PM   #103
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With that said, a question that keeps popping into my mind has to do with how much higher capacity magazines contribute to "spray and pray" shooting in SD situations. I think that having so many available rounds to shoot in rapid succession would basically guarantee an increase in the chances of an innocent bystander getting hit.
Of all the arguments for and against higher capacity weapons, this one may be the most offensive to those of us who take self-defense and use of a firearm very seriously. It shows lack of understanding and reads like many of the diatribes from anti-gun politicians and other folks who think they know better what's best for me. Whether I have five, seventeen, thirty or more rounds available to lawfully defend myself may make the difference in my survival. Saying that I am more dangerous to those around me because I carry a higher capacity pistol is foolish, and adds to the chorus of those who would take my right to do so.
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Old November 12, 2017, 02:52 PM   #104
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So, KMac, because of your training, you don't think that having a higher capacity mag would cause you to shoot more than would be necessary? I've thought along those lines too at times, but I couldn't honestly convince myself that I wouldn't end up shooting more than necessary, whether intentionally or unintentionally, if I had a higher capacity magazine. Maybe that's something that will change with time and more training.

Also, I'm not all that worried about how it reads because I know it's an honest question that I'm posing. I don't spend my time thinking about who is or isn't plotting to come after my guns, and I think this "us and them" mindset I see at work on both sides of theses debates is more harmful than helpful. I'm here to learn from others, plain and simple, not to further either side's agenda.
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Old November 12, 2017, 03:10 PM   #105
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Because they have almost unanimously stressed the importance of shot placement and finding cover,...
Cover or concealment, yes, if at all possible, but if you are ambushed in a parking lot or at an ATM, don't count on it..

Shot placement? Do not confuse that with marksmanship.

"Shot placement" means hitting critical internal body parts. Parts that are moving fast. Parts thatyou cannot see. To quote from a recent book by Urey Patrick and John C. Hall, shot placement is "serendipitous, and not designed".

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I have settled on a 5 shot revolver with two speed strips for a total of 17 rounds (which would more than likely be considerably more than I would ever actually need).
That's five that you would be able to use timely.

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...when I practice shooting, I focus on accuracy...
Yes, you do want to hit, say in an area the size of the upper chest. But you may well have no more than one or two seconds. You have to strive for a balance of speed and precision.

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I want each one to count, ...
You certainly do want each one to "count".

There is a reason why police officers are trained to fire several shots in one or two seconds. They strive for control, and it is by no means a matter of "spray and pray".

When officers do that, it is to protect themselves, or maybe someone else, when and only when it is absolutely necessary to do so. There is no reason why your reaction should be any different.

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When I run SD scenarios in my mind...
You really should avail yourself of some very good practical defensive shooting training.

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What I was referring to was being limited to five rounds before having to reload, not shooting off five rounds rapidly.
Your inability to fire five controlled shots very rapidly could very well be your undoing.

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So, is your opinion that higher capacity magazines do or don't help to create spray and pray situations? I think it's a valid question that fits in with this thread.
Training.

One who is trained will fire as rapidly as he or ehe can while maintaining combat accuracy. And stop when the threat is over.

Having sufficient capacity just makes survival more likely.

Do not confuse squeezing off aimed shots at a stationary target in front of you with effectively stopping a violent criminal who is charging you from a distance of three meters at a speed of five meters per second.

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...you don't think that having a higher capacity mag would cause you to shoot more than would be necessary?
You have to program yourself to stop shooting when the threat is over.

The programming is easy, but determining how many shots are required is not. Again referring to the book by Patrick and Hall, an attacker who is hit with a bullet may show nothing in the way of reaction. The defender cannot wait to assess that--he or she must keep shooting, rapidly. At some point, if sufficient rounds have done sufficient damage to those hidden critical body elements, the defender should be able to realize that the threat has ended.

Hopefully that will happen while the defender is still unhurt.
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Old November 12, 2017, 03:33 PM   #106
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Scuba I think you are sincere in your questions. I am going to give you sincere answers. If you are not confident in your ability to safely use your handgun in a self-defense situation, you have no business carrying one. The idea that you cannot honestly determine if you will shoot to stop the threat without control of the number of shots fired causes me real concern. I would advise not carrying a gun until you come to terms with this. Additional training and experience will help, but only you can answer this question.

Whether you are concerned about folks coming for your guns or not, there are many who would do just that. As a person who carries a gun, what you say on a public forum matters. That you are not confident in your ability to stop shooting in a self-defense situation is fuel to an already raging fire. Do yourself and everyone else a favor and get this fixed or buy some pepper spray.
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Old November 12, 2017, 05:10 PM   #107
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I haven't figured out how to use the quote function yet, so bear with me.

OM, I don't have a problem with firing five shots rapidly. I practice single shots, double shots, all five, two in one spot, two in another, etc. Knowing how to do that doesn't necessarily mean I have to empty the cylinder though, which kind of gets at what I have been doing a bad job of conveying. I'm not just practicing to shoot well. I'm also trying to train myself on when to stop shooting. In my mind, that's just as important as shooting accurately. For me, settling on five shots before having to reload helps me to focus more on both goals.

While I agree that we can never plan for every single scenario, I know my patterns in terms of where I go, the times that I do those things, etc., so I'm more interested in planning for the most likely scenarios based on those patterns.

For example--I drive to work an hour each way. So, I spend time in the car working on drawing the pistol from where I keep it, which is in a pocket type holster in between the passenger seat and the center console. I practice drawing to fire out the driver's and passenger windows, along with the front windshield. I do it all the time because I know that being in the car so much means the chances of me needing to use my gun while in the car are higher than my chances of needing it at an ATM machine or other places I rarely or never frequent. I also practice drawing a lot when getting out of and into the car in my driveway.

Another place I think about a lot is the Wal-Mart store where I shop. I always go to the same store, know the exits, how the store is laid out, where the bathrooms are, and how to get to the stock areas behind the main floor. Granted, I can't walk into WM practicing scenarios, but I plan for ways that I can get out of harm's way, should someone walk in and start shooting. That way, if I do have to fire in SD, I also leave myself a way of escape.

I do the same thing with all the places I frequent. I run scenarios through my mind, learn where exits and other routes of escape are located, etc. One thing I do at restaurants is to make sure to take a seat that gives me a clear view of the entrance and the parking lot.

The only time I can say that the idea of needing higher capacity magazines comes into play is when I think about scenarios that involve more than two assailants. For me, those generally involve a home invasion. My house gun is G35 with a 22 round magazine, because a home invasion is more likely to involve three or more bad guys.

I'm not suggesting in any way that I've thought of any and every possible scenario. But I do think that I've thought about the most likely scenarios, given my patterns for being out in public. Maybe it's just something in my mind that I will eventually think differently about, but the thought of having guns with higher capacity magazines for my normal everyday being out in public doesn't compute.

I agree with you that more training is a good idea. A friend of mine just took a class that involved being in a car and shooting his way out of it while getting a car seat out of the back seat. He posted video of him running the drill, and it looked very interesting. I'm thinking about taking that course next Spring. The range where I go also offers training in various areas of SD that I am very interested in taking. My work schedule wasn't allowing me to do that, but that's about to change.
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Old November 12, 2017, 05:16 PM   #108
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KMac, I don't have a confidence problem. If I did, I would carry something with more capacity than I do, which is not to say I think that those who do carry more capacity guns have such a problem. It isn't an either/or thing for me. It's more a doing what I feel is right for me thing.
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Old November 12, 2017, 05:19 PM   #109
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Well fellas, I appreciate the replies. As usual, this site has given me some things to think about. Thanks.
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Old November 12, 2017, 05:41 PM   #110
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With that said, a question that keeps popping into my mind has to do with how much higher capacity magazines contribute to "spray and pray" shooting in SD situations. I think that having so many available rounds to shoot in rapid succession would basically guarantee an increase in the chances of an innocent bystander getting hit. The bad guy confronts you, you pull out your gun with 15 rounds in it, start pulling the trigger, and end up pulling it more than was actually necessary only because you had so many rounds to begin with. In my mind it's almost like a false sense of security based on a full 15 round magazine.
That is your lack of experience and lack of training showing through. Some of us have been shooting and carrying for decades. I carried a revolver as an LEO for about 15 years and shoot my Glock the same way I did my wheel gun. I do not spray and pray, every bullet has a price tag and a lawyer attached.

You absolutely, positively should not be playing with your pistol as you drive the car.
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Old November 12, 2017, 06:18 PM   #111
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I'm not playing with it. I'm practicing my draw with it from where I keep it. I know enough to know not to actually have my finger on the trigger and I don't do it in traffic. You guys sure like to read a lot more into things than what's there.
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Old November 12, 2017, 06:25 PM   #112
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You guys sure like to read a lot more into things than what's there.
There usually is more there.
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Old November 12, 2017, 06:34 PM   #113
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Scuba what Nanuk is saying is a high number of training negligent discharges happen while holstering and drawing from a holster. Doing it while driving is a recipe for disaster. Unload your handgun, park your vehicle in a safe place, and practice to your hearts content. You say you want our advice and to learn. We are trying to help. Good luck.
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Old November 12, 2017, 06:38 PM   #114
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I can't say that I blame you guys. I'm a truck driver, and the more experienced drivers do the same kind of thing with the less experienced drivers. Back in the day, it got on my nerves sometimes with them, but I knew they meant well. Now I'm the one doing the same things with the newer drivers. It's kind of the same thing here. You more experienced shooters like to point out things you see as red flags. Even though I'm starting to feel like I'm playing whack-a-mole in this thread, I appreciate y'all bringing these things up. Like I said, y'all have given me some good things to think about, and I'm here to add to my learning.
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Old November 12, 2017, 06:47 PM   #115
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KMac, would it make you feel any better if I told you that I do it slowly and take the holster out from in between the seats before putting the gun back in it? I do it that way because the first time I tried it, I drew it out quickly and my finger ended up right on the trigger. I knew that wasn't a good thing, so I decided to do it slowly from that point on. And, because my first gun was a .380, I made sure from the start to take the holster out from between the seats before reholstering. I was really worried about the trigger getting caught. I don't worry about it as much with my revolver, but I still do it the same way just in case.
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Old November 12, 2017, 07:59 PM   #116
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I don't have a problem with firing five shots rapidly. I practice single shots, double shots, all five, two in one spot, two in another, etc. Knowing how to do that doesn't necessarily mean I have to empty the cylinder though
I added the emphasis of bold print to your own words, to show you how people are quite capable of ceasing their fire when appropriate. Having a larger capacity than five doesn't mean you use them all any more than you having five means you will fire all five.
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Old November 12, 2017, 08:06 PM   #117
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Scuba doing it slowly doesn't help you if speed is of the essence. Park your rig, unload your handgun, and practice till you can do it without thinking about it. Develop the muscle memory in a nonmoving truck with an unloaded gun, and be confident if you need it in an emergency it will be right where it is supposed to be. Handling your loaded (or unloaded) handgun while driving is just bad practice. Good luck.
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Old November 12, 2017, 08:18 PM   #118
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You know, that's a really good point, TailGator. Honestly, I haven't looked at it that way, but you're right. The same principle I use that says I don't have to fire all five applies to those among us who carry 7, 10, 15, etc. Or, at least it should. I've been working on the assumption that having more translates into firing more, which increases the chances of innocent bystanders being hit. That's not a correct assumption. It's so simple. Jeez, why couldn't I see that? Thank you. You answered my question.
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Old November 13, 2017, 05:53 AM   #119
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Carrying a self-defence handgun, means just that, carrying it! Not stuck in a cab. The minute you climb down, you are unarmed.
Seat belts mess up drawing a pistol if you are right-handed and carry in the traditional spot, right hip.
Which brings up the cross draw position. When you draw from the left side, the muzzle is immediately pointed at the door/window, and is not swung across your legs!
Cold climates bring up shoulder holsters. You can actually sit holding a Glock 19, 16 rounds, jacket open! And not be noticed. Accuracy with a Smith 5 shot revolver, not too easy to master.

Night sights on the Glock 19 make it way more viable, coming from the back of a Truck Lot, at 0-dark 30! As you already own a Glock, the manual of arms is no problem, yes?
Our New York Cousins have a neat expression "Forget about it!" Fits great re a reload with a speed strip! Reloading my Gen 4 G19, means 16 rounds of gone? It also means I most likely have bitten off more than I can chew.
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Old November 13, 2017, 09:34 AM   #120
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....I know that being in the car so much means the chances of me needing to use my gun while in the car are higher than my chances of needing it at an ATM machine or other places I rarely or never frequent.
You may think that, but the idea is not very realistic.

Should someone attack you while you were in your car, you would only have to resort to the display or use of your firearm in the event that you were not able to drive away.

When you are not in your car, escape might well be the best alternative, but only if it is safely possible.

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The only time I can say that the idea of needing higher capacity magazines comes into play is when I think about scenarios that involve more than two assailants.
Do you have a supportable basis for that belief?

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If I did [(have a confidence problem)] have a confidence problem, I would carry something with more capacity than I do,...
Confidence will not make five shots adequate on occasions on which they may prove not to be.

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It's more a doing what I feel is right for me thing.
I hate to put it quite this way, but what you "feel" does not seem to be based on objective thinking or realistic experience.
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Old November 13, 2017, 10:15 AM   #121
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I would also add that having a car or truck gun was exactly what led Dr. Gratia-Hupp to fight for TX CHL laws. She had a car gun and watched her parents die because her gun was a 'car' gun. The car gun folks misread risk management.

Next, fighting from a car or truck probably assumes firing through glass. That is not a trivial pursuit to be learned by imagination. It may take a shot or two to establish a path for your fire. With a five shot gun, you are getting a tad low on rounds.


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It's more a doing what I feel is right for me thing.
That's more a Dunning-Kruger statement than anything else, I'm afraid.
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Old November 13, 2017, 01:08 PM   #122
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I think Glenn Meyer's post #101 is the best response to this entire thread.

Training is paramount. People who do not have any training have this misconception of rising to the occasion with the utmost of bravery and accuracy.

Please, train. Get a good pistol and train.

I carry 2 spare reloads on me and there are 2 in my EDC bag.

A good friend of mine said, the only times carrying too much ammo could harm you is if you're in a fire or drowning.

I also want to note, that psychologically one copes with their decision whether it's based on comfort or anything else, by stating certain "facts" that hold no weight. Such as "if I can't do it in 5 rounds (nonsense)"

I think the reason why people "chest thump" back at these people, is because this is a serious matter. Not Ford versus Chevy. This is a mindset that could potentially save your life and the lives of your loved ones. Take it seriously.

Separate gun enthusiasm from self defense. They're two very different things.
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Old November 13, 2017, 06:38 PM   #123
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Well, I certainly wasn't expecting each of my posts to be picked apart, but I can't say that I'm upset over it because y'all really did bring up some valid points. Getting more training is something that I've been thinking about quite a bit lately, and you guys reinforced my thinking that that's a good idea.
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Old November 13, 2017, 11:56 PM   #124
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Ohioguy,

I wouldn't care how many rounds you might have to fire to save your loved ones and your life. The only metric I use is survival. If you have to fire 50 rounds and you've survived, the survival part is all that I'd care about.

A common theme among cops who've been in gunfights is their inability to accurately recall how many rounds they've fired. They're not counting rounds fired. They're zeroed in on survival tactics.
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Old November 14, 2017, 08:49 AM   #125
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That's a good point. An outfit I know of ran some DAs through a live fire shoot house, after they asked how many shots. They were clueless for the most part.
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