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Old June 10, 2018, 03:52 AM   #26
Jazzgun
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I love all animals. It hurts my heart to think of people shooting these exotic animals for any reason other then if they were attacking a human. And this is so rare you just never hear about it when it comes to the animals that are native to Arizona. Coyotes, mountain lions, bobcats, javalinas, wolves and yes, even black panthers (leopards).

It's very important where I live to keep a close eye on your pets because you never know when a coyote or other predator might appear. They were here before we were and they are protected by law so if you shoot one of them, especially in the city limits, you are in a heap of trouble. Hefty fine for firing a gun and for shooting a protected species. Coyotes are not protected from being trapped but you have to have a license and you absolutely cannot shoot them. You would lose your right to own a firearm if you did. Unless......it was attacking you. And even then you would have to prove it.

PS...I never knew before I read this thread that there was no such thing as a black panther. All my life I have thought there were ....black...panthers.
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Old June 10, 2018, 06:29 AM   #27
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You can’t shoot a moose in Maine if it gets too close.
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Old June 10, 2018, 01:03 PM   #28
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...coyote or other predator might appear. They were here before we were and they are protected by law so if you shoot one of them, especially in the city limits, you are in a heap of trouble.
Shooting inside city limits is almost always legally problematic unless there are qualifying extenuating circumstances. That situation aside, coyotes are not protected species in many (perhaps most) western states and can be killed any time of the year with no bag limit and regardless of the circumstances. Local/regional game regulations should be checked, of course.

In my state, for example, coyotes (along with mountain lions and bobcats) are considered to be nongame animals and it is legal to hunt them at any time with any legal means and with no limits. Foxes are considered to be furbearing animals and therefore some restrictions apply to hunting/trapping but they can be legally shot at any time and in any amounts on private property if they are considered to be a nuisance by a landowner.
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You would lose your right to own a firearm if you did.
Typical state penalties for game law violations are fines, or the confiscation of the equipment used. I'm not claiming to have done a survey of state game laws, but it would surprise me if there were many states where shooting a protected animal is a felony and therefore would result in loss of firearm rights. Federal protections are somewhat different and can carry pretty severe penalties.
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Old June 10, 2018, 01:12 PM   #29
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When turkey or duck hunting I've been stalked by numerous bobcats and at least 2 coyote. And those are just the ones I've seen. They hear the duck or turkey call and begin the stalk. When they got close enough to realize I was bigger prey than they wanted they left.

Once when walking through a wooded area to get to a beaver pond to duck hunt I had a bobcat wait in ambush in front of me. It was a full moon and I didn't need a light to see. The cat heard my brother and I walking along the trail and probably thought we were deer. I saw a blur out of the corner of my eye only a couple of feet from my right foot. It ran between my brother and I and he got a good look at the cat.

I live, hunt, hike and camp in densely populated black bear country. I carry a handgun loaded with suitable ammo whenever in areas where bear are located. I've seen many, and many up quite close. I've never felt threatened, but there are enough incidents involving others that I'm always prepared.
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Old June 10, 2018, 02:12 PM   #30
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It hurts my heart to think of people shooting these exotic animals for any reason other then if they were attacking a human.
I have killed lots of animals that were not causing anyone any harm. The only thing they ever did was taste good.
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Old June 10, 2018, 08:06 PM   #31
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Mountain lions are quite tasty.
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Old June 11, 2018, 01:01 AM   #32
stonewall50
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Originally Posted by Jazzgun View Post
I love all animals. It hurts my heart to think of people shooting these exotic animals for any reason other then if they were attacking a human. And this is so rare you just never hear about it when it comes to the animals that are native to Arizona. Coyotes, mountain lions, bobcats, javalinas, wolves and yes, even black panthers (leopards).



It's very important where I live to keep a close eye on your pets because you never know when a coyote or other predator might appear. They were here before we were and they are protected by law so if you shoot one of them, especially in the city limits, you are in a heap of trouble. Hefty fine for firing a gun and for shooting a protected species. Coyotes are not protected from being trapped but you have to have a license and you absolutely cannot shoot them. You would lose your right to own a firearm if you did. Unless......it was attacking you. And even then you would have to prove it.



PS...I never knew before I read this thread that there was no such thing as a black panther. All my life I have thought there were ....black...panthers.


Unfortunately...these exotics are horrendous for the local animals. I live in Florida. The morons that let their pythons out are causing all kinds of hell. Same thing with idiots and lion fish. The fact is...it is part of management of land now. Personally? I would outlaw the ownership of exotics. The only animals that one could reasonably own would be domesticated animals such as dogs and farm animals. And I’d be very careful about cats (horrible for local birds).


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Old June 11, 2018, 01:16 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
Unfortunately...these exotics are horrendous for the local animals. I live in Florida. The morons that let their pythons out are causing all kinds of hell. Same thing with idiots and lion fish. The fact is...it is part of management of land now. Personally? I would outlaw the ownership of exotics. The only animals that one could reasonably own would be domesticated animals such as dogs and farm animals. And I’d be very careful about cats (horrible for local birds).


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These are the local animals. They live among us. Oh...I did forget bears too. They cannot be owned legally.
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Old June 11, 2018, 02:46 AM   #34
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QUOTE: JohnKSa
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Shooting inside city limits is almost always legally problematic unless there are qualifying extenuating circumstances. That situation aside, coyotes are not protected species in many (perhaps most) western states and can be killed any time of the year with no bag limit and regardless of the circumstances. Local/regional game regulations should be checked, of course.
Hi John, well as it turns out you are correct about coyotes not being protected. At least not outside city limits. They can be trapped with a trapper's license in the city but not shot. It is illegal to discharge a firearm in the city limits in Arizona and unless there is a good reason for it the ARS is as follows:

ARS 13-3107. Unlawful discharge of firearms; exceptions; classification; definitions

A. A person who with criminal negligence discharges a firearm within or into the limits of any municipality is guilty of a class 6 felony.


It would be considered criminal negligence to fire your gun at a coyote or anything within the city limits in Arizona with the following exceptions:

1. As allowed pursuant to chapter 4 of this title.

2. On a properly supervised range.

3. To lawfully take wildlife during an open season established by the Arizona game and fish commission and subject to the limitations prescribed by title 17 and Arizona game and fish commission rules and orders. This paragraph does not prevent a city, town or county from adopting an ordinance or rule restricting the discharge of a firearm within one-fourth mile of an occupied structure without the consent of the owner or occupant of the structure. For the purposes of this paragraph:

(a) "Occupied structure" means any building in which, at the time of the firearm's discharge, a reasonable person from the location where a firearm is discharged would expect a person to be present.

(b) "Take" has the same meaning prescribed in section 17-101.

4. For the control of nuisance wildlife by permit from the Arizona game and fish department or the United States fish and wildlife service.

5. By special permit of the chief of police of the municipality.

6. As required by an animal control officer in the performance of duties as specified in section 9-499.04.

7. Using blanks.

8. More than one mile from any occupied structure as defined in section 13-3101.

9. In self-defense or defense of another person against an animal attack if a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force against the animal is immediately necessary and reasonable under the circumstances to protect oneself or the other person.

Quote:
In my state, for example, coyotes (along with mountain lions and bobcats) are considered to be nongame animals and it is legal to hunt them at any time with any legal means and with no limits. Foxes are considered to be furbearing animals and therefore some restrictions apply to hunting/trapping but they can be legally shot at any time and in any amounts on private property if they are considered to be a nuisance by a landowner.Typical state penalties for game law violations are fines, or the confiscation of the equipment used. I'm not claiming to have done a survey of state game laws, but it would surprise me if there were many states where shooting a protected animal is a felony and therefore would result in loss of firearm rights. Federal protections are somewhat different and can carry pretty severe penalties.
Yes, again you are correct. The same applies here basically, with a few months off for certain species and it's the same for the fox as a furbearing animal as well as the bobcat being considered a furbearing animal here in Arizona. But even so, the Fish and Game department is very protective of coyotes etc here in the city. And also, we have what is called "Shannon's Law" which forbids the firing of a gun into the air. This law was passed as the result of a bullet being fired into the air and coming down and killing a young woman named Shannon a few years back. Because of this law officers do not condone any kind of just random shooting of guns. I was actually told by a Fish and Game officer that I couldn't kill the coyote who was killing my kitties in my backyard. That only if he attacked me could I shoot him. Anyway it turned out to be a Mexican Grey Wolf instead and there's a $20K fine for killing or trapping them.
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Old June 11, 2018, 02:55 AM   #35
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JohnKSa

ARS 13-3107. Unlawful discharge of firearms; exceptions; classification; definitions

The penalty for this is at least one year in prison. I forgot to mention that.
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Old June 11, 2018, 08:04 AM   #36
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the Puma Concolor can be born as a melanistic variant which would give it a solid black coat.
There is no actual verified record of any of these ever existing. There are a number of faked photographs on the internet and a LOT of people who have claimed to see them, some of whom have seen them more than once and more often than seeing actual mountain lions. There is no melanistic variant of Puma concolor that will give it a solid black coat.

If one was found, it would make the news. It would be a significant scientific discovery.

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Old June 11, 2018, 08:19 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by briandg
With all of the hindsight available now, was there any option that he could have taken?
No.
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Old June 11, 2018, 09:58 AM   #38
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Arguing the legality or propriety of shooting a firearm in the city limits to stop the attack of a viscous animal, whether it's the neighbor's dog or a feral cat makes little sense to me. I, or you have the right to self-defense with a firearm in all but the most misguided communities.

Is the animal a threat to me, mine or other innocent people? I will make every effort to convince an aggressive animal to leave, including the use of nonlethal weapons. I've used pepper spray a couple of times to persuade aggressive dogs to go elsewhere. I would not be happy about using lethal force in any situation, whether man or beast. That doesn't mean I'm going to allow the pretty kitty to maul or kill me or grandma. I would not live in a place that would prefer grandma to be mauled or killed over the use of lethal force to prevent it.
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Old June 11, 2018, 10:34 AM   #39
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Coyotes are not protected from being trapped but you have to have a license and you absolutely cannot shoot them. You would lose your right to own a firearm if you did. Unless......it was attacking you. And even then you would have to prove it.
Better read up on your Arizona hunting regulations. It is legal to kill coyotes in Arizona every month of the year:

https://www.azgfd.com/Hunting/Regulations/
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Old June 11, 2018, 12:08 PM   #40
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It is illegal to discharge a firearm in the city limits in Arizona...
I find it very interesting that Arizona has a state law against it; thanks for providing the information. I haven't made a careful study of it, but my understanding is that in TX, discharge of firearms inside city limits is regulated primarily by the ordinances of the municipality in question rather than at the state level. That places a limit on the severity of the offense/penalty.

But yes, with very few exceptions, it is always a violation of some sort of regulation to discharge a firearm inside city limits unless there are extenuating circumstances.
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Old June 11, 2018, 01:52 PM   #41
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I spent 20 years on the Anchorage Police Dept. We had several large animal calls.

I love animals as much as the next guy, I dont beleive in wantan waste. But as a police officer and human, my duty was to protect citizens first and thats what I did.

I've had an occassion to put down several moose at traffic accidents rather then let them suffer. The meat was harvested for the needy.

OK thats one reason to kill animals. But defense of life of citizens is also a requirement. I was doing a crime scene investigation in the back yard of an elderly lady's house. She was beaten so bad it was hard to tell she was human. While processing the scene we got a call from the coroner telling us to no longer consider it a crime scene as he deternmined without a doubt it was a cow moose that killed the lady.

We hear of bear attacks but moose kill and injury a heck of a lot more people then bears.

Domestic animals too. I got a sniper call to kill a large dog who had bitten a child. It was to the point, if we didnt get the dog by dark, that evening they would have to start a series of painful rabbie shots on the kid. Being a dog owner and lover, I dont like to shoot dogs, but I had no choice. I saved the kid from those shots.

Animals charge, you often have no choice but to act without thinking. One such an occasion I was sent to a traffic tie up on the highway between Anchorage and Eagle River. It was a snow storm and a large bull moose was attacking cars forcing them to hit the ditch, or serve into another lane causing more accidents.

As I arrived and stepped out of the car, he charged my patrol car, I had no choice but to draw and shoot. I had no time to dodge being the cover of mine or someone else's car.

It was a beautiful animal and its sad. I had neither time or distance to avoid the animal. I acted.

I dont know of the incident mentioned by the OP. I wasnt there. Nor will I comment on other such incidents because I know what can happen. What the cop (or other shooter) sees, and what goes through his/her mind is often a lot different then setting in a warm house, say one could have done this or that. I know you often cant think at all, you just have to act.

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Old June 11, 2018, 03:02 PM   #42
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My thoughts on an animal attack? I don’t have many other than I would rather not be attacked... I am with Stonewall, idiots that I imagine can’t even raise their own kids properly need to to stop trying to domesticate wild/exoctic pets. With that said, idiots are going to do what they do until the earth quits spinning, there is no curing it.
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Old June 11, 2018, 03:34 PM   #43
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I believe in Main if a moose gets within X distance (50-100 feet?) they shoot it.

It would be a good rule for AK but the in city fools want to see their moose (until they hit one and total their car)
I'm quite unimpressed with moose in the Anchorage bowl, sure they were cool the first half dozen times you see them. but a lifetime spent here in this city has made me bored to death with them. They dont even make any 'moo' sounds.

But I disagree that they should be shot just for getting in close proximity. 50-100 feet? thats some South Park 'Oh my gawd its coming right for us!' mentality.
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Old June 11, 2018, 10:11 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by spacemanspiff
But I disagree that they should be shot just for getting in close proximity. 50-100 feet? thats some South Park 'Oh my gawd its coming right for us!' mentality.
100 feet might be slightly debatable. 50 feet is a little over the length of two parking spaces. Remember the Tueller Drill -- the magic distance when Tueller first came up with the drill was 21 feet, and he has since said that today it should be farther. Noit that you automatically shoot anything within 21 (or however many) feet, but within that distance it's a threat, so you get your weapon ready so that you can shoot.

I'd say that same logic should certainly apply to a moose within 50 feet ... and quite possibly father than 50 feet.
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Old June 11, 2018, 10:34 PM   #45
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I'm having a hard time considering anything that puts a measured distance on when to act. Just for example, if a lion is one block away, sitting on the ground and yawning, there really isn't any strong justification for kneeling, sighting in and shooting him, and saying that you were afraid because there was a lion down the block. If that lion down the block is already running hell bent for you, you waited too long.

Distance isn't important and shouldn't be a pre deciding factor, the thing that you consider should be the length of time that you have to respond.

We can consider the standard for most stand your ground laws, you can respond with lethal force when genuine fear of imminent danger exists. When dealing with wild critters, that is going to involve their behavior and proximity, right? Does it threaten? is it close? is there room to evade and escape?

An aggressive dog that I expect to attack will be within my drawing and trigger pulling range at fifty feet. a dog could cover the ground between me and fifty feet before I pull the trigger.

A moose? I don't even know where I would begin to start a decision making process. an urban moose is something that was just custom built for creation of wild scenarios.

How close should you let an angry moose get if you are in a parking lot full of trucks? a diner full of tables? an ice hockey rink? Should I use pepper spray instead of my .380, or maybe my stun gun?

Myself, just spitballing here, I believe that a moose can cover 50 to 100 feet in about as much time as it would take for me to draw or unshoulder a rifle, and if the thing is looking a weird, I will have a weapon ready in case he does go nuts.

My grandfather would never speak my name again if he found out that I was killed by an angry moose. I would be denied entrance to heaven.
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Old June 11, 2018, 11:00 PM   #46
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Just to run on a bit more about the moose. A moose is supposed to be capable of 35 mph, or 50 fps. Even going about half that, 30 fps, a moose can probably start a charge and cover fifty feet in about a second, give or take. This situation should give plenty of warning signs, not like having a timer. So, I guess that I could probably put a round or two into a charging moose, but i would be much smarter to duck. My handgun has no knockdown power, and that moose is coming at me like a tractor.

Simply put, I don't want to ever deal with this. I'm glad that there aren't any moose in missouri.
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Old June 12, 2018, 10:16 AM   #47
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Thanks guys, I am taking the family to Yellowstone in 4 weeks. Already this summer there have been two folks gored by elk and one by a bison.
Flying - so renting bear spray is my only option.
Besides utilizing common sense
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Old June 12, 2018, 10:28 AM   #48
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Local deputy told me that he went to a house several years ago to make an arrest. As soon as he stepped on the property, the front door opened and a pitbull ran toward him. The dog latched on to his groin. He took out his .40 caliber service weapon and fired several rounds in the dog. Once it released him, the dog ran around the house three times and then died. Deputy had an extended stay in the hospital and took 6 weeks to recover completely.

Years later he encountered something very similar at another house. Door opens and a Rottweiler runs toward him. He unloaded on the dog before it could reach him.
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Old June 12, 2018, 12:02 PM   #49
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I believe in Main if a moose gets within X distance (50-100 feet?) they shoot it.

It would be a good rule for AK but the in city fools want to see their moose (until they hit one and total their car)
Again, you can't shoot a moose in Maine if it gets within a 50 or 100 feet. If you shoot one without following hunting laws and get caught you'll have plenty of explaining to do.

Several people a year die from collisions with them. But attacks are very rare. The most dangerous animal in Maine is the deer tick.
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Old June 12, 2018, 02:50 PM   #50
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Jim, guess what? the last time I went to yellowstone, my father was attacked by a grizzly, and they put him down when he charged a ranger. the bear, that is, not my father.

The day before, some doofus tried photographing an elk and wound up trapped in a tree.

The lesson to be learned here is to not walk into traps and not do stoopid things. carry bear spray if you go off alone. Don't poke the bears.
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