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Old July 13, 2007, 07:21 PM   #26
douglasschuckert
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Scorch..

Thanks for the education. I appreciate someone that actually shows fact to their fiction :-)...

The pressure point is circumspect. Pressure...Force... we all know what’s what, but I really liked your reply! That was very cool... The reference I was trying to make about the 9mm being 'younger' than the .45 is the fact that we (Americans) didn't adopt the 9mm as a viable round until fairly recently (as in the early 80's). Actually, most of what we have in the civilian world have come from what the military has adopted and/or developed. Take the 338 for example. It was developed by the request of the SEAL Teams, evaluated and then adopted to select units. We requested it to bridge the gab between the 308 and the 50. The 50 was and is just to monstrous to carry up and down hills and mountains. The 338 is great against soft as well as hard kills at exceptionally long distances. The main-stream military didn’t see it viable to the expense, but several foreign militaries took the ball and ran with it. Now that is been fully developed and is being produces in masse’; it’s getting a lot more play in the GWOT. It’s a fantastic round. Absolutely fantastic.

To get back to what I was saying... the MP5 was first imported by SEAL Team 6 in the very early 80's. So was the P7M8/M13. Shortly after that the 9mm round became uber popular, and carried extensively as on paper the ballistics are damn near identical to the .45, but what these charts don’t show is kinetic energy (where the .45 excels). Then the military, needing an update to all the beat up WW2 and Vietnam 1911’s, pitched a bid for a handgun that small framed people and women could handle easily, while maintaining like-similar terminal ballistics of the .45. This is where, on paper and in gelatin, [9mm] shows extreme promise, but there is no real way to measure the kinetic energy displaced. Naturally because of its characteristics the military eventually choose the Berretta 92FS. Then when push came to shove, the SEALS very quickly dropped the round (most operators can carry their own gear), and when Kimber came on the scene, almost everyone rushed out and bought one. It was the first time someone could get a complete custom gun for half the price. Once again, this is why SOCOM carries almost exclusively the 1911 (Kimber/STI - some carry the USP (or MK23), but most use the 1911). To our surprise the M3 Guide Lamp is actually getting play again these days.... imagine that. Some are using a weapon that has seen action in 3 previous wars and now again... This should show the need for a .45 SMG. This KRISS is going to ROCK if it is as combat reliable as the designers say it is. Its UGLY, but dang if it doesn't show immense promise! I wish I was still active so I could play with it. I’m sure people in my old unit either have a couple already or have them on request.....

All-in-all brother, I was impressed with your reply!
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Old July 13, 2007, 07:55 PM   #27
douglasschuckert
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P-08

The Luger was first designed in 7.65 Parabellum. Later adapted to the 9x19 parabellum (this pistol was acutally the reason the 9x19 was developed) and there are variants in other calibers including the .45. Georg Luger designed it in 1898 as a variant to the Hugo Borchardt and teh Borchardt C-93 while basing the 'toggle lock' on the designs of Hiram Maxim. Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken was the first manufacturer, beginning production in early 1900. This pistol was known for his high reliability (when kept clean), ease of use, and its extreamly sensitive trigger. The German officers of WW1 and 2 almost NEVER carried this weapon chambered due to the nature of the trigger. The frame has a 55 degree cant that allows completely erganomic shooting and the barrel remains stationary during firing, lowering recoil (due the the toggle/knee-joint action). The Luger had a 100 year service life expectancy (and damn near reached it). It was also converted to full auto, but was not adopted due to it having such a hight cyclic rate. The German Navy adopted it in 1904 (while it was .30 Luger/7.65 Parabellum), and later the German Army (in 1908) when it was converted to 9x19 Parabellum.
DWM also produced each one with a date code on top of the barrel. They produced these guns with date stamps several years ahead of its actual pruduction date. I have one dated 1936, that my Great Grandfather took off a dead Nazi SS Officer, after putting a .45 in the base of his skull. (Its in my safe right now. He brought it home, NEVER BEEN FIRED. It has NO scratches, pitting, or discoloration with maching serial numbers on the upper/lower/both mags/holster/ and the field strip tool) Its been fired 8 times since leaving the factory - I shot 4 of those in my very early childhood). People see the date and say there was no way this was a war time piece, but it is.

Since then, one of the most popular .22's ever produced was based on this design (the Ruger MKI, II, and III - the lower anyway).

The european specs for 9mm were loaded a lot hotter than US 9mm (its equivelant to the us +P or +P+, this is why the Luger likes to misfuction with US 9mm ammo). This insidentially is the same round that H&K developed the MP5 around. Then changed the action to the .40, 10mm, and 45ACP variants. H&K also stole the design of the G3 from CETME, refined it, and produced it. (The .223, version the 53 was a modification first done by US Class 2 Manufacturers in the late 70's early 80's - and later H&K adoped the design and began producing it). - I love firearms history and designing.
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Old August 10, 2007, 12:34 PM   #28
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Quote:
Naturally because of its characteristics the military eventually choose the Berretta 92FS. Then when push came to shove, the SEALS very quickly dropped the round
The 9mm is still in general use by the SEALs, chambered in the Sig 226.
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Old August 11, 2007, 01:06 AM   #29
douglasschuckert
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Yup...

STATE 2 – GREAT answer.

I guess SDC – who thinks the .45 is obsolete – doesn’t visit many gun stores.. Or knows anything about what he’s talking about (for that matter).

Maybe this will be simple enough to understand:

The designers of the KRISS system choose the Glock mags due to the simplicity and reliability of the mag, and because it was a personal preference on their part. They have said in MANY interviews that this will NOT be the mag that enters final production. They are using it for “proof of concept”. Mag’s don’t matter. There isn’t one single manufacturer that has EVER designed a major platform around a particular caliber due to the ‘availability’ of the magazines…. If a design isn’t readily adapted, then a new one is engineered, produced, tested, and manufactured.

And yes… I have tried the camp-fire thing. In my old line of work, stupid things have been done…. Boredom’s a bitch. You hear a POP and the bullet flies about 50 feet and the case about as far in the opposite direction as the bullet). At point blank range it will hurt if it hits you, but probably won’t cause much if any actual wound-age.

Oh yea.. your little “bought into Extreme Shock” comment… that was lame. You can’t argue the facts. Do you even know what Extreme Shock ammo is? If you did you would know that when it hits… it fragments (inside it’s target) releasing all of the kinetic energy, damn near doubling the force on impact. (Just like Hollow Points have more kinetic energy than FMJ)… A Frangible does to the hollowpoint, what the hollowpoint does to the Full-Metal-Jacket. And yes.. The .230Gr from that company does hit with 500ft pounds vise the typical 350 from the 230gr 45ACP round while still maintaining subsonic speeds…

Buzz_knox: You’re right. Most SEAL Units still have P226’s in their inventory. However it doesn’t get nearly the play time it used to. Hence the lack of current contract.
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Old August 11, 2007, 05:31 AM   #30
oldbillthundercheif
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I look forward to seeing the thing with a big barrel o' ammo hanging off of it. The video of that thing sawing away are already impressive, once they can do a 100-round (or at least 30) mag-dump for the cameras everybody and their mother will be drooling over this SMG.
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Old August 11, 2007, 08:06 AM   #31
SDC
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Quote:
I guess SDC – who thinks the .45 is obsolete – doesn’t visit many gun stores.. Or knows anything about what he’s talking about (for that matter).
As I've already said, FOR AN SMG, the 45 is obsolete. If you're going to be shooting someone 3-5 times, do you REALLY think that the 45 will do a single thing that the 9mm won't do? Maybe you read a "Punisher" comic book sometime that gave you that idea, but real life isn't a comic book.

Quote:
Oh yea.. your little “bought into Extreme Shock” comment… that was lame. You can’t argue the facts. Do you even know what Extreme Shock ammo is? If you did you would know that when it hits… it fragments (inside it’s target) releasing all of the kinetic energy, damn near doubling the force on impact.
Do you want to know the FACTS on "Extreme Shock" ammunition? Take a look at what the Box o' Truth found were the FACTS: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm Now, YOU may be enough of a sap to pay $2 PER ROUND for this over-hyped crap and their "ninja" ad campaign, but most people won't fall for the "ocean-front property in Nevada" line either. Can you find "Nytrillium" on any periodic table anywhere in the world? I didn't think so, and the only reason these shysters call it "Nytrillium" is because if they called it lead, or bismuth, or zinc, people would think twice about buying it, especially when it doesn't penetrate.

Quote:
And yes… I have tried the camp-fire thing. In my old line of work, stupid things have been done…. Boredom’s a bitch. You hear a POP and the bullet flies about 50 feet and the case about as far in the opposite direction as the bullet). At point blank range it will hurt if it hits you, but probably won’t cause much if any actual wound-age.
How much acid were you on when you "tried the campfire thing"? When you do this, the bullet BARELY MOVES, because the lighter component (the case) is propelled; that's physics.
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Old September 19, 2007, 04:22 PM   #32
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It's an interesting concept....but it's still a pistol-caliber subgun. It might do well for the personal security (ie bodyguard) market, but I don't see it displacing the P90 or MP7 in the PDW trials.
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Old September 27, 2007, 09:15 PM   #33
miniuzi
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KRISS video on youtube... hype machine in motion

The future weapons episode on youtube referenced in this thread is a joke. The "comparison" they give has a chick or girly man with bad stance and bad posture shooting the non Kriss demo. Compared to the KRISS being shot later with proper shooting stance the results are inevitable. The video is an advertisement plain and simple.. then again I suppose all future weapons shows are for whatever is featured aren't they

Subguns, especially in full auto, in my mind come down to 80% operator and 20% gun. A good operator can handle their business regardless... I'd also venture to say that although the MP5 is the best of the popular/ mainstream SMG's out there I'd venture to say the Sterling family of firearms may be better in many regards. That's a discussion for a different day though.

As for the original post.. will the KRISS work out? With the new V shape handling the recoil it makes one ponder if a new posture / stance/ style is going to need to be adopted to handle the redirected recoil force. It's interesting to see the ingenuity involved. If the KRISS isn't the answer it will inspire the brain which find something better. The perfect subgun has yet to be designed in my opinion.

For the record I've never been in combat, I've never been shot at and don't plan on it anytime soon. I also didn' stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night b u the one legged hooker I "dated" did

My passion is subgun competitions and I shoot them monthly if not weekly . I don't own anything in 45 but love the fact that it is big and inherently subsonic which is always a plus.

As far as holding on target is concerned
If one were to go over the top and Frankenstein a few grease gun magazines and then stick them into a very pimped out Spitfire subgun to test a new 45 caliber suppressor.... It would look like this

Neat discussion guys.

-Todd
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Old September 30, 2007, 06:52 PM   #34
Army GI
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Decrease the bullet weight to 185gr and cut the recoil while flattening trajectory. A 185gr 45 ACP bullet is still heavy, and in FMJ form it's heavy enough to penetrate to lethal depths in a body. Plus P loadings in this caliber might be another option since you might as well be using 45 GAP if you are shooting for a standard load. Not only that, but 9mm NATO is actually +P by modern standards, too. So why not modernize the 45 ACP?
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