learning about Nipples?

ZVP · June 4, 2011, 11:43 AM

I own several Percussion revolvers and have noted that there seem to be different tapers cut on the Nipple Cones. Due to their shape, my Piettias seem to prefer the Remington #11 cap. I have tried the Remington #10's but they don't seem to fit all the way down on the tapers and often misfire (needing repeat hits to fire).
My Uberti New London Owners Manual suggests the #10 cap but again, the #11 fits all the way down. I experimented with different brands and sizes of caps and at first got very confused but the more things I tried and the more reserch I did on the net things started falling into place...
When I use the #11 caps it is necessary to "Pinch" the caps to provide a tight fit but at least they go off every time! A small trade-off to make to get functioning.
I think the troubles I am experiencing are due to the factory sholder taper of the nipples. The sholder angle is steeper on the Uberti Caps than on the Piettias.
I wonder who actually makes Nipples for these manufacturers? Maybe there are several nipple manufacturers in Europe?
Around the Net there is an excellent article on Cap sizes giving measurements of various brands. It is very intresting to see how close the # 10 and 11 Caps are! It has to be the sholder taper that makes for so many fitting problems! I think that experimenting with loads and blow-back pressures also drastically affects Cap preformance.Too much back pressure and caps fragment causing jams.
Getting optium fit and preformance from Caps is just one of a bunch ofbunch of tricks you must "Learn" through experience shooting Cap and Ball Revolvers. In the beginning, shooters assume that since percussion is an old system that it is simple however just the opposite is true! It's a series of tricks and consistancys that makes it all work!
I'm still learning and each time I figgure something new/old out, my guns run better and my shooting enjoyment gets more exciting! I doubt I will ever know it all but I make a conscious effort to scrutinize each days shooting to see if my experiments have taught me anything? Maybe this Learning thing is what's got me so hung-up on Percussion Revolvers?
ZVP

Hawg · June 4, 2011, 11:55 AM

#10 Remingtons fit all the Pietta 58's I've had/have. CCI #11's have to be pinch fit. I'd rather have CCI #10 but they're not available locally. #11 CCI's fit my Pietta 1860 and Remington #10's were too small. I prefer caps to come apart. It's a PITA to have to pry them off when they don't come apart.

ZVP · June 4, 2011, 01:17 PM

My main concern is with the Colt's design, some hammer notches are toleranced just wide enough to let fragments fall between the hammer and frame. So far I have had good luck with the #11 Remingtons cycling thru the action and falling free.
I really think that cycling the hammer quickly helps the caps follow the trough in the frame and fall free!
ZVP

kwhi43 · June 4, 2011, 01:18 PM

I always match the nipple to the cap, not the other way around.

Hawg · June 4, 2011, 02:00 PM

Get in the habit of raising the muzzle and tilting it slightly to the right as you cock the hammer and most of your cap jams will disappear.

mykeal · June 4, 2011, 07:47 PM

Nipples are made by subcontractors - basically machine shops whose contracts with the gun manufacturers might cover a number of parts and change with time. I don't believe there's any hope of tracking the source of the OEM nipples on any given manufacturer's products.

Here in the US there's a specialty shop called
Blomquist Percussion Works, Ltd. that makes custom nipples to your spec. They are quality products and while not cheap, they're generally not outrageously priced, either. If you wanted to equip all your guns with nipples that fit one particular brand/size of cap they might be the answer.

ZVP · June 5, 2011, 11:53 AM

Thanks for the replies guys!
I try to keep tins of CCI and Remington #10 and #11 caps on hand and I even found one tin of RWS's equivilant to a #10 and try them all in problem guns. This keeps most problems to a minimum.
Yea, I can see a subcontractor making small parts for many manufacturers as tooling up for small parts is costly.
I guess we ought to be glad we live today when there are many manufacturers of Caps! I bet our forefathers had a bigger problem with Caps and Nipples.
ZVP

Doc Hoy · June 5, 2011, 12:45 PM

....CCI 10s for just about everything. The only revolver that really needs 11s is the ROA. (In my experience). While shooting the Walker and Dragoons, I was alittle hesitant about the nipple to use but IIRC I wound up with 10s on those as well.

I recently had some misfires in a revolver that I shot for the first time, last week. I had to back the nipples out about a quarter turn to get them to go off.

When I got the revolver home and checked it out, I found that three of the nipples were about ten thousandths shorter than the rest. I replaced them with longer nipples but have not yet tried the fix.

tpelle · June 5, 2011, 06:58 PM

I also prefer CCI #10's. One advantage they offer is their longer skirt, which helps prevent an unfired cap from coming off of the nipple under recoil. However, as a side effect of the longer skirt, they will not work on nipples that exhibit a lot of taper, as the opening of the skirt bottoms out on the taper before the cap is all the way on.

I am a firm believer that proper cap fit is of primary importance in preventing chain-fires. Also I believe that pinching caps to keep them on (unless the oval shape resulting from the pinching is formed back out when the cap is seated) contributes to chain-fires, as an oval shaped cap on a cylindrical of mildly cone-shaped nipple will leave two channels for hot gasses to pass upwards between the cap and the nipple to ignite a cap out of turn.

Doc Hoy · June 6, 2011, 04:39 AM

I have had only one chainfire in my life and I think it came from the nipple end of the cylinder. I had to pinch caps and I think I got one on the nipple in a way that the flair in the skirt allowed the gas to get into the chamber.

Of course I don't know that for sure. It loosened the arbor on the pistol.

As regards the longer skirt, I push the caps down on the nipples with the end of the marker I use to mark targets. It almost ensures a good fit on the nipple.

tpelle · June 6, 2011, 11:13 AM

Doc, I'm willing to bet that is, in fact, what caused your chain-fire.

In the past I've tried greasing over the balls on my revolver (using Crisco), but I noticed that, after the first shot or two the Crisco would all be melted and gone anyway. I suppose that the Crisco could do a little something for you in terms of keeping fouling soft, but in terms of preventing chain-fires.....I don't think so. Sure made the gun slippery, though.

I also don't see the logic of using lubed over-powder wads. I would be concerned with the lube contaminating the powder. Maybe it doesn't work so fast for a recreational shooter who loads and then promptly shoots off all chambers, but if you loaded in the morning and then carried the revolver all day, I have to wonder.

Several folks, one of whom is a frequent poster here, I believe, have reported running tests trying to induce chain-fires - even going to the extent of using undersized balls and pouring powder into the chambers OVER the balls - and were unsuccessful. But they were able to produce chain-fires by loading chambers and leaving nipples uncapped.

A pretty decent summary of the experiments that one guy in Norway ran can be found here:

http://www.svartkrutt.net/articles/vis.php?id=13

Personally I've found it easier to select one brand and size of percussion caps that are readily available, buy them in bulk, then either select nipples that fit or modify the nipples that I have to fit that cap. The CCI #10's seem to fit the bill for me, and the only thing I've ever had to do was to chuck the nipples by the base in my drill press, then take some of the taper off them with a file until the CCI #10 cap fit.

I have several "coffee-table" reference books that cover percussion revolvers, and have looked in detail at the photos of cased sets that show the cap tins. In only one instance was I able to find any reference to cap sizes on the labels on the cap tins - most were simply marked as being for Colt revolvers - and in that one case the caps were identified as being "10 gauge". All of the caps were labeled as being made by Eley Brothers in London, too. This infers to me that there was not a plethora of cap sizes available back then as there are today. I bet you went into the hardware store or wherever and just asked for a tin of caps for your revolver.

There is only one other thing besides making sure the caps fit properly that I do which may have some effect in preventing chain-fires. I shoot light to medium loads in my revolvers - 24 grains in an 1860 Army, for instance - and was concerned that there may be a space between the powder and the ball when the ball was seated with the built-in loading lever, so I've taken to filling up the cylinder the rest of the way with cream of wheat, then pressing the ball in on top of that.

Hawg · June 6, 2011, 11:28 AM

I've posted this more times than I can count but I have an old Rigarmi 58 Remington. It will chain every time if you don't lube over the balls or use a wad. I can leave all the caps off but one and it wont chain. I got the gun new when I was 12. It takes #9 caps and all I could get back in the day were #11's. I never had a chain as long as I lubed over the balls. I'd lose a cap from recoil now and then but that was from squeezing caps down two sizes. As far as lube contaminating powder it might contaminate the powder it comes into contact with but it wont be enough to notice unless you use really wet lube.

June 5, 2011, 12:45 PM	#8
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	I use.... ....CCI 10s for just about everything. The only revolver that really needs 11s is the ROA. (In my experience). While shooting the Walker and Dragoons, I was alittle hesitant about the nipple to use but IIRC I wound up with 10s on those as well. I recently had some misfires in a revolver that I shot for the first time, last week. I had to back the nipples out about a quarter turn to get them to go off. When I got the revolver home and checked it out, I found that three of the nipples were about ten thousandths shorter than the rest. I replaced them with longer nipples but have not yet tried the fix. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

June 4, 2011, 11:43 AM	#1
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	learning about Nipples? I own several Percussion revolvers and have noted that there seem to be different tapers cut on the Nipple Cones. Due to their shape, my Piettias seem to prefer the Remington #11 cap. I have tried the Remington #10's but they don't seem to fit all the way down on the tapers and often misfire (needing repeat hits to fire). My Uberti New London Owners Manual suggests the #10 cap but again, the #11 fits all the way down. I experimented with different brands and sizes of caps and at first got very confused but the more things I tried and the more reserch I did on the net things started falling into place... When I use the #11 caps it is necessary to "Pinch" the caps to provide a tight fit but at least they go off every time! A small trade-off to make to get functioning. I think the troubles I am experiencing are due to the factory sholder taper of the nipples. The sholder angle is steeper on the Uberti Caps than on the Piettias. I wonder who actually makes Nipples for these manufacturers? Maybe there are several nipple manufacturers in Europe? Around the Net there is an excellent article on Cap sizes giving measurements of various brands. It is very intresting to see how close the # 10 and 11 Caps are! It has to be the sholder taper that makes for so many fitting problems! I think that experimenting with loads and blow-back pressures also drastically affects Cap preformance.Too much back pressure and caps fragment causing jams. Getting optium fit and preformance from Caps is just one of a bunch ofbunch of tricks you must "Learn" through experience shooting Cap and Ball Revolvers. In the beginning, shooters assume that since percussion is an old system that it is simple however just the opposite is true! It's a series of tricks and consistancys that makes it all work! I'm still learning and each time I figgure something new/old out, my guns run better and my shooting enjoyment gets more exciting! I doubt I will ever know it all but I make a conscious effort to scrutinize each days shooting to see if my experiments have taught me anything? Maybe this Learning thing is what's got me so hung-up on Percussion Revolvers? ZVP

June 4, 2011, 11:55 AM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	#10 Remingtons fit all the Pietta 58's I've had/have. CCI #11's have to be pinch fit. I'd rather have CCI #10 but they're not available locally. #11 CCI's fit my Pietta 1860 and Remington #10's were too small. I prefer caps to come apart. It's a PITA to have to pry them off when they don't come apart.

June 4, 2011, 01:17 PM	#3
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	My main concern is with the Colt's design, some hammer notches are toleranced just wide enough to let fragments fall between the hammer and frame. So far I have had good luck with the #11 Remingtons cycling thru the action and falling free. I really think that cycling the hammer quickly helps the caps follow the trough in the frame and fall free! ZVP

June 4, 2011, 01:18 PM	#4
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	I always match the nipple to the cap, not the other way around.

June 4, 2011, 02:00 PM	#5
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Get in the habit of raising the muzzle and tilting it slightly to the right as you cock the hammer and most of your cap jams will disappear.

June 4, 2011, 07:47 PM	#6
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Nipples are made by subcontractors - basically machine shops whose contracts with the gun manufacturers might cover a number of parts and change with time. I don't believe there's any hope of tracking the source of the OEM nipples on any given manufacturer's products. Here in the US there's a specialty shop called Blomquist Percussion Works, Ltd. that makes custom nipples to your spec. They are quality products and while not cheap, they're generally not outrageously priced, either. If you wanted to equip all your guns with nipples that fit one particular brand/size of cap they might be the answer.

June 5, 2011, 11:53 AM	#7
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Thanks for the replies guys! I try to keep tins of CCI and Remington #10 and #11 caps on hand and I even found one tin of RWS's equivilant to a #10 and try them all in problem guns. This keeps most problems to a minimum. Yea, I can see a subcontractor making small parts for many manufacturers as tooling up for small parts is costly. I guess we ought to be glad we live today when there are many manufacturers of Caps! I bet our forefathers had a bigger problem with Caps and Nipples. ZVP

June 5, 2011, 06:58 PM	#9
tpelle Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Posts: 120	I also prefer CCI #10's. One advantage they offer is their longer skirt, which helps prevent an unfired cap from coming off of the nipple under recoil. However, as a side effect of the longer skirt, they will not work on nipples that exhibit a lot of taper, as the opening of the skirt bottoms out on the taper before the cap is all the way on. I am a firm believer that proper cap fit is of primary importance in preventing chain-fires. Also I believe that pinching caps to keep them on (unless the oval shape resulting from the pinching is formed back out when the cap is seated) contributes to chain-fires, as an oval shaped cap on a cylindrical of mildly cone-shaped nipple will leave two channels for hot gasses to pass upwards between the cap and the nipple to ignite a cap out of turn.

June 6, 2011, 04:39 AM	#10
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Tpelle I have had only one chainfire in my life and I think it came from the nipple end of the cylinder. I had to pinch caps and I think I got one on the nipple in a way that the flair in the skirt allowed the gas to get into the chamber. Of course I don't know that for sure. It loosened the arbor on the pistol. As regards the longer skirt, I push the caps down on the nipples with the end of the marker I use to mark targets. It almost ensures a good fit on the nipple. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

June 6, 2011, 11:13 AM	#11
tpelle Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Posts: 120	Doc, I'm willing to bet that is, in fact, what caused your chain-fire. In the past I've tried greasing over the balls on my revolver (using Crisco), but I noticed that, after the first shot or two the Crisco would all be melted and gone anyway. I suppose that the Crisco could do a little something for you in terms of keeping fouling soft, but in terms of preventing chain-fires.....I don't think so. Sure made the gun slippery, though. I also don't see the logic of using lubed over-powder wads. I would be concerned with the lube contaminating the powder. Maybe it doesn't work so fast for a recreational shooter who loads and then promptly shoots off all chambers, but if you loaded in the morning and then carried the revolver all day, I have to wonder. Several folks, one of whom is a frequent poster here, I believe, have reported running tests trying to induce chain-fires - even going to the extent of using undersized balls and pouring powder into the chambers OVER the balls - and were unsuccessful. But they were able to produce chain-fires by loading chambers and leaving nipples uncapped. A pretty decent summary of the experiments that one guy in Norway ran can be found here: http://www.svartkrutt.net/articles/vis.php?id=13 Personally I've found it easier to select one brand and size of percussion caps that are readily available, buy them in bulk, then either select nipples that fit or modify the nipples that I have to fit that cap. The CCI #10's seem to fit the bill for me, and the only thing I've ever had to do was to chuck the nipples by the base in my drill press, then take some of the taper off them with a file until the CCI #10 cap fit. I have several "coffee-table" reference books that cover percussion revolvers, and have looked in detail at the photos of cased sets that show the cap tins. In only one instance was I able to find any reference to cap sizes on the labels on the cap tins - most were simply marked as being for Colt revolvers - and in that one case the caps were identified as being "10 gauge". All of the caps were labeled as being made by Eley Brothers in London, too. This infers to me that there was not a plethora of cap sizes available back then as there are today. I bet you went into the hardware store or wherever and just asked for a tin of caps for your revolver. There is only one other thing besides making sure the caps fit properly that I do which may have some effect in preventing chain-fires. I shoot light to medium loads in my revolvers - 24 grains in an 1860 Army, for instance - and was concerned that there may be a space between the powder and the ball when the ball was seated with the built-in loading lever, so I've taken to filling up the cylinder the rest of the way with cream of wheat, then pressing the ball in on top of that.

June 6, 2011, 11:28 AM	#12
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	I've posted this more times than I can count but I have an old Rigarmi 58 Remington. It will chain every time if you don't lube over the balls or use a wad. I can leave all the caps off but one and it wont chain. I got the gun new when I was 12. It takes #9 caps and all I could get back in the day were #11's. I never had a chain as long as I lubed over the balls. I'd lose a cap from recoil now and then but that was from squeezing caps down two sizes. As far as lube contaminating powder it might contaminate the powder it comes into contact with but it wont be enough to notice unless you use really wet lube.