Military hand to hand

[Airborne Cadet]

My question is, on today's battlefield, how often do you think the average American soldier would have to engage in hand to hand combat? With the weapons we have today, we are engaging the enemy at longer ranges than in the years of swords and stabbing weapons. The most clear need for some type of hand to hand skill that I can see would be for CQC when the engagement range is significantly shorter and also for dealing with and securing EPW's. Obviously hand to hand will continue to be taught to our armed forces, as well it should be, but it seems that it would be more important to LE, where the focus is not killing. From what I understand after talking to various LEO's, many agencies do not emphasize combatives. This means that if a high-speed officer wants to better his or her hand to hand skills, they would have to utilize resources outside of the agency, possibly at personal expense, which would discourage some officers. I can't help but think of the video of the female officer who stopped a suspect on the side of the road and was immediately beaten by him while his little girl watched. I would especially like to hear some opinions from LEO's and military/former military on this issue.

[cookhj]

the marince corps has been implementing the new MCMAP (marine corps martial arts program) and they tell you during your training that most of it is for developing the warrior mindset. true, most hand to hand combat would be in dealing with EPW's and possibly in CQB situations.

as far a police go, defensive tactics (DT) is an essential part of training and one more tool in your use of force doctrine. it give you one more way to deescalate a situation rather than having to resort to deadly force. however, if you are confronted with a BG with a gun/knive/crowbar/etc, more than likely you will be drawing down on them, but each situation is going to be different.

so basically, i guess my answer to you is that it's an important tool for both military and police, and it gets you in a "fighting" mindset.

[M1911]

Airborne:

Looks like we'll be trying to take Baghdad before too long. That won't be M1 Abrams at 3000 meters.

M1911

[Airborne Cadet]

roger that m1911, urban warfare is a b*tch

[Gomez]

Having spent my time in the Army and in civillian law enforcment, I am pretty confidant when I say that neither the military nor the law enforcement establishment spen near enough time on unarmed skills. In the military, hand-to-hand combatives is rarely taught, and when it is it's more often glorified PT rather than useful skills. In law enforcement, cops are given minimal training in DT and most of it is in the form of "restraint and control" techniques rather than more generally useful skillsets.

Given that most infantry engagements, post WWI, have been within 25M and the distances seem to be shrinking on the modern battlefield, H2H skills will become even more vital. In my experience, people in todays society are not used to the physical contact that was common only a generation or two ago.Since they have never been hit, or hit anyone, they are timid about "going hands on". There are a lot of problems which can be solved by an M16, but a lot of those could be solved with less force and less fuss if the soldiers had the skills to do so. It's the same thing in the LE world. When cops aren't confidant in their hands-on skills, they escalate their use of force. Most of the time, you can get away with it, but that doesn't mean that you should.

The thing to remember is that unarmed skills don't replace any other skills. It's a case of "good information not displacing other good information".

How's this for a training thought for the day?

"If you are working CQB drill (MOUT, FIBUA,etc) and you are Not putting hands on people, at least some of the time, you are not training realisticlly."

[Fred Hansen]

We named our local American Legion Post for this man. He proves that attitude in battle is everything. In open battle, no one can predict what will happen. Fighting filthy coward terrorist types is even worse. You can never tell when they might crawl out from behind a crib and attempt to stab/shoot you in the back. Be ready for everything, and always remember, "Your E-tool is your friend!"

WILSON, BENJAMIN F.

Rank and organization: First Lieutenant (then M/Sgt.), U.S. Army Company I, 31st Infantry Regiment, 7th Infantry Division. Place and date: Near Hwach'on-Myon, Korea, 5 June 1951. Entered service at: Vashon, Wash. Birth: Vashon, Wash. G.O. No.: 69, 23 September 1954.

Citation:
1st Lt. Wilson distinguished himself by conspicuous gallantry and indomitable courage above and beyond the call of duty in action against the enemy. Company I was committed to attack and secure commanding terrain stubbornly defended by a numerically superior hostile force emplaced in well-fortified positions. When the spearheading element was pinned down by withering hostile fire, he dashed forward and, firing his rifle and throwing grenades, neutralized the position denying the advance and killed 4 enemy soldiers manning submachineguns. After the assault platoon moved up, occupied the position, and a base of fire was established, he led a bayonet attack which reduced the objective and killed approximately 27 hostile soldiers. While friendly forces were consolidating the newly won gain, the enemy launched a counterattack and 1st Lt. Wilson, realizing the imminent threat of being overrun, made a determined lone-man charge, killing 7 and wounding 2 of the enemy, and routing the remainder in disorder. After the position was organized, he led an assault carrying to approximately 15 yards of the final objective, when enemy fire halted the advance. He ordered the platoon to withdraw and, although painfully wounded in this action, remained to provide covering fire. During an ensuing counterattack, the commanding officer and 1st Platoon leader became casualties. Unhesitatingly, 1st Lt. Wilson charged the enemy ranks and fought valiantly, killing 3 enemy soldiers with his rifle before it was wrested from his hands, and annihilating 4 others with his entrenching tool. His courageous delaying action enabled his comrades to reorganize and effect an orderly withdrawal. While directing evacuation of the wounded, he suffered a second wound, but elected to remain on the position until assured that all of the men had reached safety. 1st Lt. Wilson's sustained valor and intrepid actions reflect utmost credit upon himself and uphold the honored traditions of the military service.

[geer]

hehe entrenching tools are the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]
in the soviet military there were units called stroibat (correct me if iam wrong); they were so messed up in the head noone could trust them with guns, so they were armed with spades! now thats combat!!

[rlpinca]

I think that alot more time should be spent on hand to hand. The military is doing alot more humanitatin missions and other stuff that involves close contact with people that might not be friendly. They're walking around in unfriendly countries down the same street that the bad guys are. Some type of training should be done atleast once a week. The way it was when I got out it was more like once a year.

I agree with Gomez about the glorified PT part. Other than bootcamp and MCT the only formal training we had was during PT through marginally trained instructors who could barely demonstrate the moves. I was practicing aikido with several friends and was also a bouncer at a busy bar, so I got my fair share of practical experience. Sadly there are alot of Marines that can shoot damn good, but couldn't hold their ground in an actual fight.

[jpd82]

When I was in the army (1993-1999), our H2H was weak to almost non existant. I had to find other means of training. From books and videos, and from other soldiers who had martial arts experience, and we trained in our off hours. One thing I wish we had was qualified H2H instructors. Not some NCO who, a week earlier got the info out of a manual, and was trying to teach a class.

[Spectre]

Combatatives is taught, like bayonet training, mostly as an aggression and confidence builder.

The BJJ-type stuff the Army is teaching now is great. For UFC. :barf:

Do I think it's vital for Army personnel to be taught hand-to-hand skills? No. Is it useful? Maybe, but not if it's at the expense of other essential skills.

[wingnutx]

The Army teaches BJJ to Rangers in order to foster an aggressive attitude, not as a particularly valuable battleground skill. BJJ is pretty good for training 'full force' without seriously damaging your fellow trainies. It's probably hard to fast-rope after breaking your knuckle on your buddy's skull in h2h class.

They'd still much rather simply shoot the bad guys.