9 mm 124 gr cast with Unique??

PolarFBear · May 25, 2018, 07:27 AM

Just made a batch, 750, 9 mm using a Lee 124 grain TL mold. Now, I need a powder charge of Unique. Looking for about 975 fps, nothing to fast. Something for 124 grain Berry's plated as well. I was thinking 4.3 grains. Suggestions???

**Unclenick** · May 25, 2018, 09:59 AM

Alliant uses 5.2-5.8 starting to maximum for a Gold Dot which has a plated jacket that is softer than a drawn jacket, but harder than Berry's, so you could probably run the Berry's starting at least to the starting load and maybe all the way to the top, watching for pressure signs and metal fouling and accuracy not getting suddenly wild. This is also assuming you use the same seating depth.

Seating Depth = Nominal Case Length + Bullet Length - COL

If you want to know the COL to target to achieve a particular seating depth you've learned for another bullet then just rearrange the above formula:

Target COL = Nominal Case Length + Bullet Length - Seating Depth

For the TL bullet, since I don't know your alloy hardness, figure to start where you suggested and to work up, using a chronograph, but not likely to exceed 5.2 grains. Again, this assumes same seating depth. Deteriorating accuracy or excessive leading are potential pressure signs, signalling you to back down.

After altering burn rate to get a velocity match with the Gold Dot data at Alliant, for which the seating depth appears to be 0.204", both cast and Ranier plated bullets hit 975 fps (4" barrel, as is standard for 9 mm testing) at 4.7 grains of Unique. So measure your bullet lengths and use the second formula, above, to give you a COL to try. If you have to seat deeper to fit and feed or pass the plunk test, then bring the powder down 0.1 grains for each 0.018" deeper you have to seat to stay at about 975 fps. From the 4" barrel, the pressure is less than 2/3 the Alliant maximum with this 975 fps load, so that simple increase in depth and change in powder charge don't change pressure enough to matter until you go more than about 0.18" deeper in seating depth.

The issue is going to be whether or not this light load will cycle your gun.

mikld · May 25, 2018, 10:34 AM

Your best bet would be to look up the data in Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, or Lyman's 50th. I have a "rule' for me that I suggest to anyone that will listen; I pay very little attention (None) to any load data from any forum expert, range rat, well meaning friend, gun counter clerk, pet loads website, or gun shop guru. I get all my starting load data from my published manuals and an occasional bit of data from powder manufacturer's websites and work up, keeping records of every load I assemble. I refer to my published manuals for maximum loads and watch for pressure "signs"...

30+ years, one squib (1970) and no kabooms...

FWIW, for the 1,000 plated bullets I reloaded, I used lead bullet data and methods.

**Unclenick** · May 25, 2018, 10:51 AM

That is correct. You always double-check what you see on a site against published data, if for no other reason than we can make typos.

In this case, however, the only load Lyman has that is close is in their cast bullet manual and is for a 125 grain #356637 HP cast bullet seated to a very short 1.01 COL, and they recommend 4.5-5 grains of Unique, so we are in the ballpark here. But again, I can typo with the best of them, so you really should get that book and read it for yourself.

T. O'Heir · May 25, 2018, 11:40 AM

You have to work up the load for your pistol.
"...a Gold Dot which has a plated jacket..." You may want to re-read that. A GD is a jacketed bullet according to Speer. They speak of jacket separations. Plating doesn't do that.

rg1 · May 25, 2018, 11:46 AM

For your velocity goal I'd load in the 4.5 to 4.8 grain range and no higher using unique and cci 500 primers.

juggernault98 · May 25, 2018, 04:37 PM

I used/use 5.0 unique for my casts at that grn. They're hitek coated if that matters.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Unclenick** · May 25, 2018, 04:51 PM

T. O'Heir,

It is jacketed by electroplating. I got that from the horse's mouth. I spoke with a Speer technician who had personally run the plating process. He said it's important to know because there was some existing Gold Dot data that had starting loads higher than the maximum loads for some same-weight bullets with jackets drawn from formed cups.

I have no explanation for the separations, I'm just reporting what Speer told me. Plus, the lower starting pressure QuickLOAD's author found was needed to predict their behavior is further evidence the Speer technician was correct.

PolarFBear · May 25, 2018, 05:01 PM

Thanks Unclenick. The Lyman book was my third.reference I checked. First was Lee's then Hornady. None listed a direct match with bullet and powder. So I deferred to the experts on the board.

Tsquared · May 25, 2018, 06:34 PM

No expert here, but I find Unique to push a coated lead bullet or heavy plated a little faster than I want to go. I do use it for some of my JHP loads.

For something in 975fps range I would look at w231/HP-38 or HS-6. I am on a CFE-pistol kick right now. I am pushing coated lead about 1100fps with good results.

jolly roger · May 29, 2018, 07:34 AM

4.8 Unique here for years with that bullet weight. Nice little target 9mm load

May 25, 2018, 07:27 AM	#1
PolarFBear Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2015 Location: NE Tennessee, a "Free State" Posts: 478	9 mm 124 gr cast with Unique?? Just made a batch, 750, 9 mm using a Lee 124 grain TL mold. Now, I need a powder charge of Unique. Looking for about 975 fps, nothing to fast. Something for 124 grain Berry's plated as well. I was thinking 4.3 grains. Suggestions???

May 25, 2018, 09:59 AM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Alliant uses 5.2-5.8 starting to maximum for a Gold Dot which has a plated jacket that is softer than a drawn jacket, but harder than Berry's, so you could probably run the Berry's starting at least to the starting load and maybe all the way to the top, watching for pressure signs and metal fouling and accuracy not getting suddenly wild. This is also assuming you use the same seating depth. Seating Depth = Nominal Case Length + Bullet Length - COL If you want to know the COL to target to achieve a particular seating depth you've learned for another bullet then just rearrange the above formula: Target COL = Nominal Case Length + Bullet Length - Seating Depth For the TL bullet, since I don't know your alloy hardness, figure to start where you suggested and to work up, using a chronograph, but not likely to exceed 5.2 grains. Again, this assumes same seating depth. Deteriorating accuracy or excessive leading are potential pressure signs, signalling you to back down. After altering burn rate to get a velocity match with the Gold Dot data at Alliant, for which the seating depth appears to be 0.204", both cast and Ranier plated bullets hit 975 fps (4" barrel, as is standard for 9 mm testing) at 4.7 grains of Unique. So measure your bullet lengths and use the second formula, above, to give you a COL to try. If you have to seat deeper to fit and feed or pass the plunk test, then bring the powder down 0.1 grains for each 0.018" deeper you have to seat to stay at about 975 fps. From the 4" barrel, the pressure is less than 2/3 the Alliant maximum with this 975 fps load, so that simple increase in depth and change in powder charge don't change pressure enough to matter until you go more than about 0.18" deeper in seating depth. The issue is going to be whether or not this light load will cycle your gun. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 25, 2018, 10:51 AM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	That is correct. You always double-check what you see on a site against published data, if for no other reason than we can make typos. In this case, however, the only load Lyman has that is close is in their cast bullet manual and is for a 125 grain #356637 HP cast bullet seated to a very short 1.01 COL, and they recommend 4.5-5 grains of Unique, so we are in the ballpark here. But again, I can typo with the best of them, so you really should get that book and read it for yourself. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 25, 2018, 11:40 AM	#5
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	You have to work up the load for your pistol. "...a Gold Dot which has a plated jacket..." You may want to re-read that. A GD is a jacketed bullet according to Speer. They speak of jacket separations. Plating doesn't do that. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

May 25, 2018, 04:51 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	T. O'Heir, It is jacketed by electroplating. I got that from the horse's mouth. I spoke with a Speer technician who had personally run the plating process. He said it's important to know because there was some existing Gold Dot data that had starting loads higher than the maximum loads for some same-weight bullets with jackets drawn from formed cups. I have no explanation for the separations, I'm just reporting what Speer told me. Plus, the lower starting pressure QuickLOAD's author found was needed to predict their behavior is further evidence the Speer technician was correct. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 25, 2018, 10:34 AM	#3
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Your best bet would be to look up the data in Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, or Lyman's 50th. I have a "rule' for me that I suggest to anyone that will listen; I pay very little attention (None) to any load data from any forum expert, range rat, well meaning friend, gun counter clerk, pet loads website, or gun shop guru. I get all my starting load data from my published manuals and an occasional bit of data from powder manufacturer's websites and work up, keeping records of every load I assemble. I refer to my published manuals for maximum loads and watch for pressure "signs"... 30+ years, one squib (1970) and no kabooms... FWIW, for the 1,000 plated bullets I reloaded, I used lead bullet data and methods. __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

May 25, 2018, 11:46 AM	#6
rg1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Posts: 1,125	For your velocity goal I'd load in the 4.5 to 4.8 grain range and no higher using unique and cci 500 primers.

May 25, 2018, 04:37 PM	#7
juggernault98 Member Join Date: December 1, 2016 Posts: 33	I used/use 5.0 unique for my casts at that grn. They're hitek coated if that matters. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

May 25, 2018, 05:01 PM	#9
PolarFBear Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2015 Location: NE Tennessee, a "Free State" Posts: 478	Thanks Unclenick. The Lyman book was my third.reference I checked. First was Lee's then Hornady. None listed a direct match with bullet and powder. So I deferred to the experts on the board.

May 25, 2018, 06:34 PM	#10
Tsquared Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2016 Location: NE Atlanta Posts: 337	No expert here, but I find Unique to push a coated lead bullet or heavy plated a little faster than I want to go. I do use it for some of my JHP loads. For something in 975fps range I would look at w231/HP-38 or HS-6. I am on a CFE-pistol kick right now. I am pushing coated lead about 1100fps with good results.

May 29, 2018, 07:34 AM	#11
jolly roger Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 179	4.8 Unique here for years with that bullet weight. Nice little target 9mm load