Why magnums for USA, if AK Fish & Game say 30-06 enough? - Page 2

Scorch · February 18, 2021, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Bear "perfume," though popular with tree huggers, Green-worshippers, and other idjits often doesn't work ...The term "work" here meaning that the deployment of the spray actually stops or turns a charge, thus leaving the human alive and unmauled

Not sure how we went down this squirrel hole bout sprays and such, but there's a funny little anecdote related to bears and bear spray.

Backcountry hiking experts suggest carrying bear spray and wearing bells to alert bears to your approach. Startled bears can be dangerous. You can tell if there are bears in your area and what kind of bears they are by looking for scat. You can easily tell black bear scat from grizzly scat. Black bear scat will smell like berries and have berries in it. Grizzly scat smells like bear spray and has little bells in it.

Or something like that.

JustJake · February 18, 2021, 11:38 PM

Dude, read the relevant studies. You'll figure it out.

**44 AMP** · February 19, 2021, 02:29 AM

Quote:

W.D.M. Bell killed 1,011 elephants. 800 with a 7x57, the rest with a variety
of small bore rifles--nothing larger than .32 caliber.

The numbers that Bell recounts in his book don't match up with your statement very well. Bell recounts he did shoot something like 300 with "light rifles" which were 6.5 & 7mm caliber, then moved up to the .318 Westly Richards (which, despite its name uses a .333" bullet), and later on went to a .416.

Bell was also often hunting in a situation that doesn't exist anymore, he was hunting elephants that generally had never been shot before, and frequently didn't react to the sound of gunfire, so he as able to shoot from close range and at game that wasn't spooked a lot of the time.

Additionally, Bell was "surgically precise" with his shooting, no one disputes that. He's a famous and historical figure for what he was able to do. There are no records of how many others tried the same things and failed. Africa recycled them...

ammo.crafter · February 19, 2021, 08:28 AM

I never needed any more than my Marlin .444 with hard cast reloads.

Then again, I know exactly where it impacts at various ranges as well as how to aim if shooting up or down hills.

Pistoler0 · February 19, 2021, 10:15 AM

So then maybe magnums have a role in AK for charging grizzlies (different opinions).

But in the lower 48, no use for the magnums except long range competition?

eastbank · February 19, 2021, 10:33 AM

every post here has truth in it, if every thing goes as planned it may be a cake walk. but if things go south in a bad way, i want all the edge i can muster. the only DG i have shot was a cape buffalo in 2015 in africa and after getting the first shot at it standing at 40 yards and blowing the top of its heart off it ran off in a semi circle and i shot it two more times as it veered towards me, one thu the chest and the second shot broke its back and down it went. if it had charged straight at me it had plenty of air left to kill me if not for the two extra shots. my ph was to the right of me and could not get a shot in. its just my take on any animal that may want to kill me.

JustJake · February 19, 2021, 11:03 AM

Interesting that the Pros-in-the-Know in Alaska also say the 10mm has taken over as the good-to sidearm to have when you're out and about in bear country, with or without a rifle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZJVF5PWtq8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KLkDA6sPjg

recoil junky · February 19, 2021, 11:30 AM

Reading posts from wanna be elk hunters is priceless.

If you shot an elk three times with a Sevumag and he kept on grazing, you missed.

If you shot an elk with a Sevumag and the bullet went straight through, the bullet did its job, you just didn't do yours by hitting it in the right place.

Yes, elk and bears are tough, but not if you do your job.

RJ

Logs · February 19, 2021, 03:40 PM

Here are my two shots with 7mm Mag behind shoulder. I would say my placement was pretty good.

MarkCO · February 19, 2021, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by recoil junky

Reading posts from wanna be elk hunters is priceless.

If you shot an elk three times with a Sevumag and he kept on grazing, you missed.

If you shot an elk with a Sevumag and the bullet went straight through, the bullet did its job, you just didn't do yours by hitting it in the right place.

Yes, elk and bears are tough, but not if you do your job.

RJ

Reading comprehension would help you not look like an idiot. They teach those in the community college, you should look into them.

It was not me, it was my Dad, and the shot placement was good. But yeah, only 37 Elk tags filled by me.

Double Naught Spy · February 19, 2021, 05:41 PM

When it comes to large predators, I would much rather err on the side of more gun than too little gun. I would also rather err on the side of shooting what I decide is appropriate for me. How AK F&G wants to outfit their people is there business. How I outfit me is my business.

Shadow9mm · February 19, 2021, 06:10 PM

If you looking long range competition, Personally I would look at 300PRC rather than the 300 mag.

Jack O'Conner · February 19, 2021, 06:22 PM

A magnum rifle requires a sturdy scope, expensive ammo, and being tolerable to vicious recoil. Why not hunt closer and shoot a .308?

Jack

Shadow9mm · February 19, 2021, 08:11 PM

depends on the magnum. Only magnum rifle I have shot was a 300 win mag. The recoil was milder than my lightweight 30-06..... regular scope, marginally more expensive ammo, recoil was stout, but not vicious. Like I said I can only vouch for the 300 win mag I shot, but it was not bad.

recoil junky · February 19, 2021, 10:33 PM

Behind the shoulder IMO is too far back, if you're not breaking the humorous or close to it, you're too far back, hitting the lungs too far back is asking for a long and maybe endless tracking job.

It doesn't matter how many you killed, it's how you killed them.

Being able to read, well, being able to illiterate the written word goes a long ways too.

Anyways

RJ

RC20 · February 20, 2021, 06:42 PM

Quote:

When it comes to large predators, I would much rather err on the side of more gun than too little gun. I would also rather err on the side of shooting what I decide is appropriate for me. How AK F&G wants to outfit their people is there business. How I outfit me is my business.

No one is saying otherwise.

They also work.

Reality is for every guide and game taken, a thousand Alaskan's do it per normal individual or group hunting.

I have yet to hear of a bear attack someone packing a rifle made a successful shot.

Two factors, time and ability to stay calm.

If you can shoot the magnum then its better than an 06 you can't.

Scandinavia uses 6.5 for most of their hunting and they do fine.

People who can't shoot what they bring is the bane to a guides existence, but they get paid for it.

60 some years and I never had a run in with Grizzly bear (and one black bear that was my fault).

If you need a 375 H&H to feel safe then you should not be out there, guided or not.

eastbank · February 20, 2021, 08:11 PM

so says the non magnum pundit.

Scorch · February 21, 2021, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Scandinavia uses 6.5 for most of their hunting and they do fine.

It's about time to put that myth to bed. While the 6.5X55 was very popular for many years due to military surplus rifles and ammunition availability, 308, 30-06, 7X64, 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Mag are much more popular these days since military rifles and surplus ammo, the very thing that made the 6.5X55 popular, are mostly in .308/7.62X51 these days and most of the older 6.5X55 surplus ammo has dried up. Besides, their animals are much smaller, their moose average about 300-400 lbs, where an Alaska moose will got 800-1200 lbs.

Quote:

People who can't shoot what they bring is the bane to a guides existence

This is true.

Maxwell Haus · February 21, 2021, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logs

Here are my two shots with 7mm Mag behind shoulder. I would say my placement was pretty good.

Very good placement in deed, well done .

Maxwell Haus · February 21, 2021, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scorch

It's about time to put that myth to bed. While the 6.5X55 was very popular for many years due to military surplus rifles and ammunition availability, 308, 30-06, 7X64, 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Mag are much more popular these days since military rifles and surplus ammo, the very thing that made the 6.5X55 popular, are mostly in .308/7.62X51 these days and most of the older 6.5X55 surplus ammo has dried up. Besides, their animals are much smaller, their moose average about 300-400 lbs, where an Alaska moose will got 800-1200 lbs.

This is true.

What is your source for this claim when it comes to rifle caliber popularity ?
Do you live/hunt there ?

taylorce1 · February 21, 2021, 10:34 PM

I found this written by an actual hunter from Sweden back in 2007 and it looks like the 06 was the most popular for moose where the study was done. However, there is no mention of other scandinavian countries. I've trimmed it down some but you can read the whole thing by using the link.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henrik

Hello,
I'm a Swede that has been shooting and hunting in Sweden for 20+ years now and during that time I've seen some changes in the preferences of my fellow swedish hunters.

First of all it's important to understand that there's some major differences between different parts of my country. In the southern parts of our Sweden there�s a lot of deer hunting as well as boar and moose hunting, whereas the nortern parts has a lot lees deer and boars but they do have good moose hunting as well as bears (at least in some areas). I do believe that the average hunter in the southern parts spend a lot more money on his (or her) hunting equipment compared to hunters in the north. The leases for hunting areas are also more expensive in the southern parts of the country.

Our choce of chamering might differ from your "Joe Average" as we tend to put less faith in speed and the magnums are not as popular here as I get the impression that they are in the US. We have also seen a trend where 6.5x55 is losing in popularity (at least in sales of new guns) and what used to be "the big three" 30-06, 308 win and 6.5x55 are now dominated bu the first two rounds.

Fortunately we have a tendency to document and analyze everything in our country which means that there's at least some official statistics available. I have two different documents available, the first one where are the statistics regarding 8760 mooses.

Code:

Chambering,   Number of mooses,   Meters traveled,   Cartridges/Moose
30/06   	2849	              47	     1,57
6.5x55	        2792	              43	     1,57
308 win	        1314	              41	     1,67
8x57 IS	        575	              57	     1,53
9.3x62	        449	              34	     1,50
358 Norma	219	              19	     1,16
375 H&H	        211	              31	     1,33
9.3x57	        134	              41	     1,50
7mm Rem	        107	              40	     1,32
338 WM	        83	              31	     1,20
300 WM	        27	              16	     1,83
			
Total/ Average	8760	              43	     1,56

The second document is regarding 6167 mooses shot in an area in northern Sweden between 1990 and 1997. I will try to explain the figures first, eg

30-06 1938 1.5 43 this means that there where 1938 mooses shot with a 30-06 each moose took an average of 1.5 shots to go down and the average moose travelled 43 meters after the shot. So here come the figures:

Code:

30-06		1938	1.5	43
6.5x55		1717	1.5	41
308 Win	        943	1.7	38
9.3x62		306	1.4	36
375 H&H	        265	1.4	30
8x57		265	1.5	50
358 NM	        192	1.2	36
9.3x57		150	1.5	35
338 Win	        111	1.5	31
7 mm RM	        75	1.4	47
8x64		25	1.2	32
300 Mag	        25	1.9	24
458 Win	        18	1.3	18
7x64		18	1.4	43
416 Taylor	17	1.3	27
8x68S 		12	1.4	40
8x60		9	1.1 	4
270 Win	        7	1.4	64
9.3x74R	        7	1.2	32
9.3x64		5	1.6	50
460 Wby		3	1.3	70
9.3x72		1	1.0	0
Unknown	58

Obviously the chamberings at the bottom of the list are only used by one or maybe two shooters and the statistics tell us more about their shooting abilities then it does about their choosen gun.

eastbank · February 22, 2021, 08:53 AM

what it tells me is that any of the calibers shown with proper bullets will kill them if the shot is placed right.

jrothWA · February 22, 2021, 10:55 AM

Two years ago, I ran a target for my club's hunter sight-in, abut 3-ish and senior gentleman rolled up to sight-in a 7mmMag, [as he in twenty years of trying pulled a Michigan tag}], he had full box of Federal 175grainers, by the ten round he had a SEVERE flinch. I rolled an sweatshirt in to a pad did some good but not much.

I suggested either get a lower weight bullet and come back or if he had an, 06 or .308 use that. I also mentioned to try using differt powder to make a 7X57 muaser to get a better placement..

He thought about it and indicated he would try the following week-end at another club to get sighted.

Never heard what happened?

Go for the shot placement, is best.

stagpanther · February 22, 2021, 06:22 PM

There's another way to look at this I would offer up: The trend in modern firearms seems to be toward ultralight firearms. This has, IMO, resulted in "down-niche" cartridges like the 6.5 creedmoor which achieve similar flat trajectories as the traditional "big boy magnums" but at much less felt recoil--in lighter weight rifles. I personally feel a 9 lb rifle is perfectly acceptable for me to haul around and thus the bigger magnum cartridges aren't nearly as punishing as they would be in a modern light-as-a-feather carbon fiber space-laser rifle.

Dranrab · February 23, 2021, 08:53 AM

Guide Phil Shoemaker often uses a 30-06 as his rifle to back up clients. With a heavy Partition, it will solve problems. I never have had a magnum rifle (not counting 22 and 44) When I lived in Kodiak I used a 30 and 35-06 and a 45-70, certain in the knowledge that if I did my job, they would do theirs.

I often hunted in remote areas with a 243. I had heard the warnings that bears come running to the sound of a shot. That didn't pass my sniff test. All wild animals learn that gunfire means danger and their survival instincts keep them away. If they came running to the sound of the shot, then guides would use a gun shot as a bear call. I am not saying it hasn't happened, I am saying that it is extraordinarily rare. So rare that it's not worth fretting over.

Bullets and placement matter way more than anything else.

February 19, 2021, 08:28 AM	#29
ammo.crafter Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: The Keystone State Posts: 1,970	Bears I never needed any more than my Marlin .444 with hard cast reloads. Then again, I know exactly where it impacts at various ranges as well as how to aim if shooting up or down hills. __________________ "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson

February 19, 2021, 10:15 AM	#30
Pistoler0 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2019 Location: Conifer, CO Posts: 632	So then maybe magnums have a role in AK for charging grizzlies (different opinions). But in the lower 48, no use for the magnums except long range competition? __________________ Life is simply an inter-temporal problem of constrained optimization.

February 19, 2021, 11:03 AM	#32
JustJake Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2020 Posts: 497	Interesting that the Pros-in-the-Know in Alaska also say the 10mm has taken over as the good-to sidearm to have when you're out and about in bear country, with or without a rifle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZJVF5PWtq8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KLkDA6sPjg Last edited by JustJake; February 19, 2021 at 09:22 PM.

February 19, 2021, 03:40 PM	#34
Logs Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 1999 Location: BLUEGRASS STATE KY USA Posts: 1,780	Here are my two shots with 7mm Mag behind shoulder. I would say my placement was pretty good. __________________ NRA LIFE MEMBER

February 19, 2021, 05:41 PM	#36
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	When it comes to large predators, I would much rather err on the side of more gun than too little gun. I would also rather err on the side of shooting what I decide is appropriate for me. How AK F&G wants to outfit their people is there business. How I outfit me is my business. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

February 18, 2021, 11:38 PM	#27
JustJake Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2020 Posts: 497	Dude, read the relevant studies. You'll figure it out.

February 19, 2021, 10:33 AM	#31
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	every post here has truth in it, if every thing goes as planned it may be a cake walk. but if things go south in a bad way, i want all the edge i can muster. the only DG i have shot was a cape buffalo in 2015 in africa and after getting the first shot at it standing at 40 yards and blowing the top of its heart off it ran off in a semi circle and i shot it two more times as it veered towards me, one thu the chest and the second shot broke its back and down it went. if it had charged straight at me it had plenty of air left to kill me if not for the two extra shots. my ph was to the right of me and could not get a shot in. its just my take on any animal that may want to kill me.

February 19, 2021, 11:30 AM	#33
recoil junky Member Join Date: June 20, 2014 Location: TheElkHuntingCapitol CraigCO Posts: 60	Reading posts from wanna be elk hunters is priceless. If you shot an elk three times with a Sevumag and he kept on grazing, you missed. If you shot an elk with a Sevumag and the bullet went straight through, the bullet did its job, you just didn't do yours by hitting it in the right place. Yes, elk and bears are tough, but not if you do your job. RJ

February 19, 2021, 06:10 PM	#37
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,969	If you looking long range competition, Personally I would look at 300PRC rather than the 300 mag. __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

February 19, 2021, 06:22 PM	#38
Jack O'Conner Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2005 Location: Manatee County, Florida Posts: 1,976	A magnum rifle requires a sturdy scope, expensive ammo, and being tolerable to vicious recoil. Why not hunt closer and shoot a .308? Jack __________________ Fire up the grill! Deer hunting IS NOT catch and release.

February 19, 2021, 08:11 PM	#39
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,969	depends on the magnum. Only magnum rifle I have shot was a 300 win mag. The recoil was milder than my lightweight 30-06..... regular scope, marginally more expensive ammo, recoil was stout, but not vicious. Like I said I can only vouch for the 300 win mag I shot, but it was not bad. __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

February 19, 2021, 10:33 PM	#40
recoil junky Member Join Date: June 20, 2014 Location: TheElkHuntingCapitol CraigCO Posts: 60	Behind the shoulder IMO is too far back, if you're not breaking the humorous or close to it, you're too far back, hitting the lungs too far back is asking for a long and maybe endless tracking job. It doesn't matter how many you killed, it's how you killed them. Being able to read, well, being able to illiterate the written word goes a long ways too. Anyways RJ

February 20, 2021, 08:11 PM	#42
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	so says the non magnum pundit.

February 22, 2021, 08:53 AM	#47
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	what it tells me is that any of the calibers shown with proper bullets will kill them if the shot is placed right.

February 22, 2021, 10:55 AM	#48
jrothWA Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 2,519	Two years ago, I ran a target for my club's hunter sight-in, abut 3-ish and senior gentleman rolled up to sight-in a 7mmMag, [as he in twenty years of trying pulled a Michigan tag}], he had full box of Federal 175grainers, by the ten round he had a SEVERE flinch. I rolled an sweatshirt in to a pad did some good but not much. I suggested either get a lower weight bullet and come back or if he had an, 06 or .308 use that. I also mentioned to try using differt powder to make a 7X57 muaser to get a better placement.. He thought about it and indicated he would try the following week-end at another club to get sighted. Never heard what happened? Go for the shot placement, is best.

February 22, 2021, 06:22 PM	#49
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,775	There's another way to look at this I would offer up: The trend in modern firearms seems to be toward ultralight firearms. This has, IMO, resulted in "down-niche" cartridges like the 6.5 creedmoor which achieve similar flat trajectories as the traditional "big boy magnums" but at much less felt recoil--in lighter weight rifles. I personally feel a 9 lb rifle is perfectly acceptable for me to haul around and thus the bigger magnum cartridges aren't nearly as punishing as they would be in a modern light-as-a-feather carbon fiber space-laser rifle. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

February 23, 2021, 08:53 AM	#50
Dranrab Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2016 Location: NOLA Posts: 203	Guide Phil Shoemaker often uses a 30-06 as his rifle to back up clients. With a heavy Partition, it will solve problems. I never have had a magnum rifle (not counting 22 and 44) When I lived in Kodiak I used a 30 and 35-06 and a 45-70, certain in the knowledge that if I did my job, they would do theirs. I often hunted in remote areas with a 243. I had heard the warnings that bears come running to the sound of a shot. That didn't pass my sniff test. All wild animals learn that gunfire means danger and their survival instincts keep them away. If they came running to the sound of the shot, then guides would use a gun shot as a bear call. I am not saying it hasn't happened, I am saying that it is extraordinarily rare. So rare that it's not worth fretting over. Bullets and placement matter way more than anything else.