38 Special Snubby loads for defense

[lee n. field]

Originally Posted by bstogsdill

Hi. I have a snubbie load question.

What bullet type and weight has anyone found to work best in a 2 inch snubbie?

Long ago, tinkering and experimentation got me to 158 grain LSWC, 3.8 grains Bullseye. Which, as it turned out, was the old "FBI load".

[David R]

I feel comfortable carrying my 637 with +P button nose wadcutters. This is not for everyone. A J frame has been part of my rotation for almost 30 years.

David

[USSR]

Long ago, tinkering and experimentation got me to 158 grain LSWC, 3.8 grains Bullseye. Which, as it turned out, was the old "FBI load".

You will never get FBI Load velocities using Bullseye - much too fast of a powder for that. The absolute best powder that I have found for that application is HS-6.

Don

[Unclenick]

Have you run HS-6 at 38 Special pressure in a 1 7/8" barrel? We had a fellow on another board getting terrible velocity extreme spread with it. Ran from 450 fps to 650 fps. Of course, I didn't get to stand over him and watch his loading practices.

[USSR]

All I've got are 2.5" Model 19's. If that fellow was getting 450 -650 fps with normal loads of HS-6, I would highly suspect chronograph issues. My load is 7.0gr, and average velocity was 940 fps. Don't recall what the ES was, but it was certainly not excessive. Oh, BTW, magnum primers are a prerequisite for HS-6 loads.

Don

[pete2]

I actually prefer a 50 BMG for defense but they are not only illegal but it won't fit in my pocket so I'll stick with my 642 which will fit in my pocket and I can draw it from my pocket. Can't do that with many if any semi autos due to the shape. Might be possible with an LCP.
I'm getting 900fps with 125 XTPs in the 642.

[zeke]

FWIW

M638, Win brass, cast performance 160 gn FNPB.

5.5 gns HS-6, Fed 100 primer
689 fps, 687 fps, 683 fps, 708 fps

5.5 gns HS-6 Fed 200 primer
700 fps, 692 fps, 696 fps

5.5 gns V V N-350, Fed 100 primer
770 fps, 814 fps, 812 fps, 845 fps

Rem 158 LSWHP, Win plated brass, 5.6 gns Power Pistol, Fed 100 primer
808 fps, 799 fps, 813 fps

[USSR]

Here is some load data regarding the FBI Load as done in a 2" barrel by my friend ArchAngelCD, who I swear sprinkles HS-6 on his Wheaties.

Here is one of my loads, the FBI Load:
Winchester .38 Special +P case
158gr Hornady LSWC/HP
CCI 550 Primer (Magnum primer on this load)
7.0gr HS-6
COL 1.475"
4" M686 ---- 2" M640
927.0 -- AV --- 888.9
955.1 --- H --- 897.1
905.4 --- L --- 876.6
49.7 ---- ES --- 20.5
20.7 ---- SD ---- 7.9
17.0 ---- AD ---- 5.9

Don

[Unclenick]

I don't recall the primer, but it's not the only mention of ES issues I've seen for 1.875" barrels. I own a few 3" guns and never seen an issue there and always got good groups from them. I've shot a friend's Ruger 2.5" .454 Casull with no problems except the stock front sight blade was too short for the rear sight's adjustment range as if Ruger just expected it to be a point-and-yank gun. But the 1.875" snubbies I've shot have never grouped well for me. I originally put that down to the sight radius just being too short for my eyes. Then the fellow having apparent velocity issues made me wish I had chrono'd the ones I'd shot to be sure nothing else was going on.

I think we went over and eliminated the chronograph error issues with him, but I'd have to relocate the thread to be sure. I just recall I wound up suspecting the exact bullet position at the peak pressure point might not be consistent enough in it for consistent post-peak acceleration and recommended faster powder and tighter crimping. It might mean the short barrel length requires above-average precision throughout the rest of the gun. Things, like matching chamber diameters and timing the chambers to the barrel center, things that you normally do only for a match revolver, might be necessary for consistency with the very short barrels. But it would take some experiments to know.

[zeke]

Light, small gripped (especially S&W without larger grips) revolvers are extremely difficult to shoot accurately at any kind of distance with heavy loads. Especially if ya got big hands. I know it is beyond me, but some can.

Just wanted reliable shoot to poa, and about 800 fps. Not real interested in pushing it beyond listed plus p pressures. Light fast 38 special bullets have a significantly lower POI, imo. Heavier crimps and tighter bullet fit can work in some instances for consistent powder burns in the revolvers am using. They can also have a negative effect.

The listed charge of hs-6 i used was below starting loads, still had consistent velocity's. Used the V V N-350 load for the accuracy and lower muzzle flash than power pistol.

[zxcvbob]

You will never get FBI Load velocities using Bullseye - much too fast of a powder for that. The absolute best powder that I have found for that application is HS-6.

Bullseye is not as fast as people think. It is very high energy, which pushes it to the top of the burn charts, but it's actually between Green Dot and Unique in speed. 3.5 grains with a 158 grain cast bullet is a good middling load. I would expect 3.8 grains to be a decent service load. No doubt it's not HS-6, but maybe better for a short barrel? (less flash and boom for pretty close performance)

My defense load is 4.5 grains of American Select with Missouri Bullets 158 grain swaged hollowpoints. But I've been told recently AS has a very bright flash, and I haven't tested that yet by shooting some at dusk, so maybe it's not a great powder choice even tho' the ballistics are good. For practice, I use the same powder and 158 grain wide flatnose bullets that I cast myself.

[JERRYS.]

in my 2" model 64 I really like the Remington 158gr. LHP +p.

[USSR]

zxcvbob,

Don't know what burn rate chart you're looking at, but the several I have available to me for teaching reloading show Bullseye right where it actually is, well faster than Green Dot and miles away from Unique.

Don

[zxcvbob]

Don't know what burn rate chart you're looking at, but the several I have available to me for teaching reloading show Bullseye right where it actually is, well faster than Green Dot and miles away from Unique.

It has been a while, and I don't have Quickload loaded on any of my computers right now, but the energy per gram for BE is way higher than any other powder except Power Pistol (which is just a slower formulation of Bullseye) and there was another column that gave the burn rate; I don't remember what the units are. And if you look at Alliant's older reloading books, the velocities and pressures of BE loads for .357 Magnum suggest the same thing.

I think the high energy pushes BE and PP to the left when they normalize the data for the burn rate charts. And if there are any low energy single based shotgun powders left (Solo?) they probably get pushed to the right. That's why those charts are just mainly useful for powder selection, not for formulating load data. That .357 Magnum load data even exists for BE and the velocities are pretty good means something's not right with the conventional wisdom.

You're a reloading expert and I'm not. This is just my opinion as someone trained in engineering, who's looked at numbers from one pretty good source. I could be wrong. (but I don't think so)

[Nick_C_S]

Chose the right round for the right application. Meaning for me 130gr HST or 135gr Golddot is awesome.

Absolutely. If I carried a snubby (I have one, but don't carry it), it would be full of 135 Gold Dots - no question. Easiest decision ever. Excellent short barrel specific ammo.

I tried to emulate Speer's factory 135 GD's using BE-86 (see post #13) and was not quite able to reach Speer's velocity with my work up (Let this be a lesson for novice loaders: Note - I was not chasing Speer's velocity. I did my work up independent of my knowledge of Speer's performance. I worked up until good sense told me to stop and my result was my result. And my result was not quite that of Speer's.). Speer did an exceptional job with their 135 GDHP SB ammo.

We had a fellow on another board getting terrible velocity extreme spread with it (HS-6).

This too is anectodal; but I struggled with high ES's using HS-6 too (38 Special, 357 Mag, 44 Spl, & 45 ACP). Not to the extent of the guy on the other board; but in the 150+ f/s neighborhood. I learned that HS-6 behaves much more consistent using heavy bullets (i.e. 158's) and ran all the way up the scale. Furthermore, it's a propellant that runs best at magnum pressures; and that is why I scrapped it entirely for 38 Special. Long term, I just quit using it. I still have a bunch of 240gn 44 Mag ammo loaded with it; and that round is a fine performer.

[458winshooter]

How about the old 38 super police load? It had a 200 gr long for caliber bullet moving at a fairly low velocity that would tumble on impact. It is said the police in Great Briton were forbidden to use it because it had a devastating effect on soft tissue. Theirs was in a 38 S&W but one was made for the 38 spl too. Penetration was often not as deep but wound channels were said to be gastly.

[jaguarxk120]

I was also wondering about that 200 grain load.