10mm Full Size double-stack RIA vs EAA?

[R.A.N.G.E.R]

Hey folks,

I’m looking for a 10mm double-stack and my research has me tied between RIA’s 52009, a 5” 16+1 steel framed 1911/2011 and an EAA Tanfoglio such as their 600650, a CZ 75 based 4.5” steel framed 14+1 autopistol.

Reviews and videos generally like the Rock, but consider it large and its usefulness limited mainly to hunting. I’m not much of a hunter, my uses are mainly range and target. They make two models, a 6” which runs about $1000 or less and a 5” barrel model which runs $600 more or less.

I’ve seen less about the Tanfoglios, but one owner was very happy with his 6” ‘Hunter’ model. They have a number of models - in full size guns I think they have several 6” models, and several 4.5” models. Their prices run from under $500 to over $1500.

At the higher end the prices start to compete with more regarded choices like Dan Wesson Bruin or Colt Delta Elite, though these two are not double-stacks, and it does go up and up from there. I’d like to try to keep it near the low end, so looking for comments from people who’ve owned one or another of these, or some other high capacity 10mm. Thanks.

[ifithitu]

I have been looking at the RIA 1911 10mm.

[74A95]

The tanfoglios are definitely full size guns as they are built around the 38 super, 10mm and 45 auto cartridges, whereas the CZs were built around the shorter 9mm/40 cartridges. I have one of tanfoglios old 'steel full size' 38 Super guns before they changed the slide design. I also had a 10mm in the same design.

The RIAs are built on the Para Ordnance frame, I think, as I think they use the same magazines. You'd have to check that for sure, but the frames look the same. I have several Paras.

It might come down to which platform you prefer, a 1911-2011 or the CZ-type. They are both excellent designs.

And there is always the Glock, if you swing that way.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 74A95

The RIAs are built on the Para Ordnance frame, I think, as I think they use the same magazines. You'd have to check that for sure, but the frames look the same. I have several Paras.

The RIA double stacks are NOT built on Para-Ordnance frames, since Para-Ordnance (or, more accurately, ParaUSA) was acquired by Remington and subsequently killed off until Remington brought back a couple of the double stacks under the Remington brand name a year or two ago. However, Armscor is pretty good at reverse engineering and I have no doubt that their double stack 1911s were cloned from Para's double stack frame.

[TruthTellers]

I'd go RIA. Idk what, if any, 1911 parts are compatible with it, but if there are any there'll be a lot larger selection of aftermarket parts to use with it vs the EAA.

If there wasn't a chance of 10mm PCC's in the future that use Glock mags, I wouldn't be interested in a Glock 10mm and would buy a Rock Island 10mm instead.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

The RIA double stacks are NOT built on Para-Ordnance frames, since Para-Ordnance (or, more accurately, ParaUSA) was acquired by Remington and subsequently killed off until Remington brought back a couple of the double stacks under the Remington brand name a year or two ago. However, Armscor is pretty good at reverse engineering and I have no doubt that their double stack 1911s were cloned from Para's double stcak frame.

Yeah, sorry. I didn't mean to say they used Para frames, I only meant that they used the same frame design, which I should have stated more clearly. Springfield Armory used to offer a double stack and I think theirs was also a similar design as Paras as I think they could also use Para Mags. Folks can feel free to correct me on that.

The RIA and SA frames have/had the same look as the Para frames from the outside.

[silvermane_1]

Me personally i would go with RIA 1911/2011 double stack 10mm, and i have nothing against the EAA, seeing that the 1911/2011 has a higher mag capacity and 1911s/2011s pattern pistols tend to "point" better.

[AgedWarrior]

I own a RIA single stack 10mm. It is a pretty good pistol. Been quite reliable. Well made, but without a fancy finish. I looked at one of their double stack models, but I personally did not care for the 1911 with that width of grip. I suspect folks with bigger hands might enjoy it, but I did not, and I have no issue with the grip of my FNX-45 (double stack .45 ACP). I think the RIA is a good gun, but I would make sure you really like the double stack grip before you buy it and wish you had a single stack.

[Sgt Pepper]

I recently acquired a Springfield Armory XD-M 10mm with 4.5" barrel, and I absolutely love it. Holds 15 rounds and still fits nicely in most hands. Great sights and shoots like a dream. I have owned a Glock 20 and a couple of Delta Elites in the past. I enjoyed my enhanced Delta Elite but it is single stack 8 rounds which does not fit your parameters. Springfield Armory frequently runs promos where you can also get a lot of gear with purchase or for a minimal fee - I ended up with hard case, soft case, holster, folding knife, and 5 mags.

[98 220 swift]

I have the eaa elite match in 10mm I believe that is the same one you are looking at. It is very accurate and has a awesome trigger. I have used it to take a small buck as well. It has been extremely reliable even with some very hot loads(over 1300 fps with 180 gr bullets.) The only problem I have had is the rear sight cracked and broke off when shooting(probably due to the hot loads) I called eaa and they sent me a new one. I have heard bad things about their service but I thought it was great. I also bought a stronger recoil spring for it as well. I also have a 10mm Ria single stack. The double stack 1911 is too big for my hands. It has also been flawless except for one bullet design with a flat point it will not feed. I have had no issues with it either but have had it only 6months.Everyone that tries out the eaa loves it. It is a very smooth shooter. It does fling the brass into the next state though. I would try both out if possible to see which one fits the best. I can shoot the eaa better but then again I have had it longer and shot it much more. Also the eaa comes with a very nice case but only 1 mag.

[R.A.N.G.E.R]

Appreciate the experiences and opinions. Still looking, it’s a big decision for me. As my lady points out, it’s yet another caliber. I picture myself learning reloading, especially to afford to shoot 10mm on a regular basis. I think I could gear up on a small acale, but that’s yet another new venture.

I’m leaning towards the EAA - probably their (600580) EAA Witness Elite Stock III. It looks like a good balance of features for the money. The worst I’ve heard about it is the need to use a stronger recoil spring and possible problems with the rear sight. Other than a few issues m people seem pretty content.

[RickB]

Velocity is the whole point of modern 10mm, as opposed to the founding principles, so I'd go 6" before 4.5".

[Jim Watson]

If you are not hunting, the 10mm is shooting targets the hard way.
I would (DID!) stay with 9mm and .45. Cost is lower, gun setup is easier, recoil is less.

[KawLiga]

I have had my RIA Tac Ultra FS HC 10mm for about a year now and while I don’t get out to shoot it as often as I would like, it has been a lot of fun. I have put a little over five hundred rounds through it with the bulk of those being some Sellier & Belliot truncated cone FMJs (300 of those), which failed to feed every second or third round. I am pretty sure that these were caused by the steep angle of the shoulder of the round and because I had not left the magazines loaded for a couple of weeks in order to take some of the stiffness out of them.

I could mix in some of the other ammo I had at that time (various Underwood brand hollow points) and those would feed perfectly. As soon as the S&B truncated fmjs came up, one would quickly jam nose up in to the chamber, where that steep shoulder would catch against the chamber wall and jam it.

I put all 300 rounds of those fmjs through it in a couple of hours and then finished the day with a full magazine of Underwood’s 135 grain nosler jhps (definitely the softest shooting rounds I have fired). Not a single hiccup from those. And since then I have run two hundred of the Minuteman brand 165 grain speer gold dots (1,400 fps), again no issues (not bad for ~$0.59 per round).

The fiber-optic front sight is very easy to see- even though I cannot get a really comfortable grip on it because the flat mainspring housing does not fill my hand enough front-to-back, I can put four shots through three touching holes at ten yards with it when firing as fast as I think I can make a good hit.

While the grip (front-to-back) does not fill my hand as comfortably as a 1911 with an arched mainspring housing, the width really isn’t much of an issue compared to a single-stack (I believe the grip panels on double-stacks are thinner than on single-stacks, so the actual difference in the grip width isn’t very much at all).
That said, the grips and the checkering on the mainspring housing are good at helping to maintain a firm grip when wet (usually 80-105 F with 85-100% humidity, so it doesn’t take long to start sweating). The lines on the front strap really don’t do much, but they also don’t hinder anything.

Now I am looking to move on to something else and have decided to sell it to make room for the new gun (looking for a base 1911 to do a .460 Rowland conversion).

[Skans]

I love my Tanfoglio Stock I 10mm. One of my favorite guns! Reliable, accurate, awesome trigger, especially for a DA/SA. Great balance. truglo front sight and adjustable rear sight. Grip feels good. Durable brushed hard-chrome finish. And, beautiful to look at.

[TRX]

> Yeah, sorry. I didn't mean to say they used Para frames, I only meant that they used the same frame design,
---
Just to complicate matters, when RIA first started making double stack pistols, they DID use Para frames. So did a couple of other companies. Once they established that enough customers would buy double stack guns to make it worthwhile, they sourced frames elsewhere.

[R.A.N.G.E.R]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

If you are not hunting, the 10mm is shooting targets the hard way.
I would (DID!) stay with 9mm and .45. Cost is lower, gun setup is easier, recoil is less.

Jim Watson, perfectly reasonable viewpoint. I’m often not that reasonable. Strangely, shooting is a great experience for me that I don’t get to do often enough. With that in mind, one line of thought has me reaching for the faster go-kart. Wallet Face says whoa on there cowboy, the buy-in is ok, but >50¢ @ round? not so much. 45acp can come close to that, or more for defense rounds. Good 10mm defense ammunition can run $1 per. The point is that despite the merits, 10mm is not an entirely rational choice!

[Forte S+W]

I would choose the EAA Tanfoglio Witness 10mm.

It's basically a CZ-75 clone, which some even argue is superior to the CZ-75.

[Bongo Boy]

I own the RIA Ultra FSHC or whatever they call the $650 double stack 10. The 'standard' dust cover with no tac rail. I also have the Witness Hunter, which I've shot a little bit more than the Rock. I'll just share my experiences with each, but first, about utility, use, etc.

I don't hunt and never will, so neither pistol was purchased for anything other than range toy. Neither is well-suited for IDPA or any other kind of action games, IMO, so again--strictly guns for taping up paper and setting up pumpkins and blasting away, for ME.

I feel both are equally well-made, all-steel guns. The Witness is very 1911-ish in some ways, but obviously so many differences most folks would take issue with that. They are both relatively heavy steel guns, so both help manage recoil, although the Witness is to me considerably more comfortable to shoot. It has a grip that is barely wider than a standard single stack 1911, has no sharp corners or edges anywhere, and simply feels very nice in the hand.

Until I benched out all the skin-ripping corners everywhere on the RIA, it was literally painful to shoot. About 30 min work tops with a die maker's riffler (jewelers file), it is very comfy, and I can shoot it extensively with no issues. It is still a comfortable grip, although just a little fat. I find it far more comfortable than say a G20. No contest--for ME.

Adjustable rear sights on both, similar takedown, nicer finish on the Witness if you consider 'nicer' to be shiny and classic. I personally love the plain, matte dark finish of the Rock, and particularly like the fact there isn't any goofy crap stamped or engraved all over the gun. The EAA gets points for this as well--nothing I dislike more than script lettering, logos and safety instructions slapped all over a gun.

To the very best of my knowledge, pretty much all aspects of the RIA are standard 1911 A2...give or take a trigger part or two and maybe the recoil spring and guide rod assembly. I'm no expert in that area. Nothing on the Witness is 1911, but parts are available just the same.

The windage adjustment screw on the rear sight of my Hunter has always had an issue with backing out over extended shooting (or one of the screws, anyway), while the fiber element in the fiber optic front sight on the Rock dropped out after a hundred rounds. Both of these issues are minor and correctable. The only other issue that comes to mind in the guide rod in the Witness is a two piece thing, the two pieces pinned together with a small steel pin. That pin sheared and the two pieces came apart, with the guide rod itself falling out of the gun at the range. EAA sent a complete new guide rod in a couple of days--but I simply took the two pieces of the first one and fused them together permanently with JB Weld--and it worked with no issues for maybe 1000 rounds so far. The two-piece design is, as far as I can tell, simply a manufacturing choice to get a fat, load-bearing end at the rear where it contacts the frame, and a long slender spring guide--without turning down a solid piece of round stock. There isn't any reason the two pieces ever need to be disassembled--so now they are as one. I would have TIG'd em if I still had my welder.

So, I give the nod to the Witness Hunter for overall comfort, but the RIA gets the vote for 'standard' and things like it slaps into my 1911 holsters like they were built for it--which, I guess they were. I doubt the extra length of the Witness is going to add 50 fps to muzzle velocity, and since I handload, I don't care about that anyway.

Speaking of handloading--my choice of calibers and weapons, as a handloader, can be significantly different than those of shooter who doesn't choose to handload. I don't shoot factory ammo...period. So, 10mm is my choice of handgun caliber (for auto pistols) and it's not very likely I'll ever buy a firearm in any other caliber--10mm is about 6 cents a round for me if I shoot cast, of 35 cents a round if I shoot jacketed. Same as 45, same as 44 Mag, same as 40 SW. Cost per round isn't a factor.

As with 45 Auto, 44 Mag, 40SW and every other caliber than can be handloaded, 10mm can also be loaded to a *range* of loads. This may come as a real shock to many shooters, because I seem to hear the opinion (a lot) that there are only two choices in 10mm Auto...'real' 10mm, and 'not real' 10mm. No other cartridge ever developed, that I'm aware of, had only these two choices. As far as I know, there is no 'real 44 Mag' or 'real 45 Auto'. But, I've discovered that 10mm can also be loaded to supremely accurate target shooting levels (sort of like 45, sort of like 44 Mag), still cycle a firearm, and still be a blast to shoot.

I think you'd be happy with either choice, I am.

[Pistoler0]

Regarding the EAA (Tanfoglio) Witness pistols, one of the GREAT features about them is that you can buy kits to change calibers. The 10mm EAA Witness is built on their large frame, and it has conversions for 9mm, 45 ACP, .380 and others.

IF your pistol is full size, there is also a conversion for 22lr. Beware however, that the 22lr conversion is not available for the Compact models.

The EAA Witness is extremely reliable and very high quality in my opinion.

[Cosmodragoon]

I had a double-stack Rock Island 1911 in .45 acp. It looked like the previous owner has stored it loose in a toolbox in the back of a pickup or something. It looked like hell but it functioned flawlessly and ate whatever I fed it. That left me with a good feeling towards the company.

I only sold it because I prefer DA/SA. Some of the 10mm EAA models come in DA/SA. Either one of those or the 10mm P40L from Grand Power is on my wish list.

As far as being a big gun or having a long barrel, I think that's a good thing. If you are going to the trouble of shooting 10mm, you might as well make the most of it.

[Steve in Allentown,]

A little late to the party but here's my 2 cents.

Upfront, I have no experience with EAA Tanfoglio pistols and so can't comment on them. I do have experience with Glocks and a lifetime (so far) carrying and shooting 1911s.

My son has a RIA 10mm. It's a heavy beastie which tames the recoil of the 10mm. My son and I both found that the right paddle of the ambi safety could inadvertently be pushed up by contact with our firing hand. I replaced it with an EGW single side safety. I attempted to fit an EGW sear to the pistol but found the geometry of the pistol is slightly different than Colt/Springfield/JEM/Caspian/etc frames. The difference did not allow a simple swap of the sears. I had very little time available to do anything more than identify the issue, put the EGW sear back in the bag, and use a TR jig to get rid of the creep in the RIA sear.

Even though the pistol runs fine it ejects brass into low earth orbit despite the fitting of an EGW flat bottom firing pin stop, an EGW heavy duty extractor, a 22lb recoil spring, and a 26lb mainspring. Just the nature of the beast. Personally, I think the 10mm is too much for the 1911. I think the platform tops out with the 9x23.

A couple of years after getting the RIA he got an XDm 10mm with a 5" barrel. In my estimation it's much better suited to shooting lots of 10mm full house loads and this is from a dyed-in-the-wool 1911 fan boy.

I strongly recommend a Springfield XDm 10mm. I'm a 1911 guy through and through but after spending some time shooting my son's XDm 5.25" 10mm I would choose it hands down over any Glock. The XD has a far superior trigger, period.

In my opinion, the XDm also has better ergonomics than the Glock.

Recoil with Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman 220gr hardcast ammo was unremarkable when compared to a Rock Island TAC Ultra FS which has noticeably more recoil and muzzle flip.

If I ever got the hankering for a 10mm, I'd get one of these XDm pistols.

https://www.springfield-armory.com/p...#XDM952510BHCE

[tallball]

I don't have a 10mm, but I have a full-sized Witness in 45acp and a double-stack RIA 1911 in 40 calber.

They're both nice pistols. If you like SA/DA, the Witness is great. If you like 1911's, the RIA is a good shooter.

My RIA has a matte finish that wears and scratches easily. It's too big for people with smallish hands. Mine are XXL and I shoot it well.

The Witness is on the large side too. I like its CZ75 ergonomics a lot.

I like them both. It's win/win.