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Old February 23, 2015, 01:44 PM   #26
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IMO, Much ado about .040". I feel case inspection is definitely one of the most important steps in reloading and should be done first. If you have some "Leverevolution" brass problems then just quickly sort out all Hornady brass. No big deal. And for those that say .040" is insignificant, please let me know where you shoot so that I won't wind up next to you when you are shooting your .357 Magnum...
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Old February 23, 2015, 03:06 PM   #27
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Who wants to put this argument to the test?
Two sets of reloads, one normal and one with bullets set .040deeper.
Check them both with a chronograph and report back.
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Old February 23, 2015, 03:12 PM   #28
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Well another thing is just because the case is .040" shorter, one doesn't have to load the COAL .040 shorter (decreasing interior volume and increasing pressure).

Just load to the same OAL you would with a normal case.
So what if the cannelure is outside the mouth? Big whoop.
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Old February 23, 2015, 03:35 PM   #29
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Typing slower, if I adjust my seating/crimp die to seat bullets and crimp a case my seating die will not crimp a case that is .040" shorter. Then there is removing the bell.

Then there is that thing about covering the chamber, I want to cover all the chamber possible, I know, it does not make a difference , but, it did on 22 chambers when shooting 22 shorts.

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Old February 23, 2015, 03:40 PM   #30
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Could change the wording to shorter, seems 'too short' is difficult to get around. If it is too short, it is too short. I want a uniform crimp, a difference of .040" can not be uniform.

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Old February 23, 2015, 04:12 PM   #31
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I only trim straight wall pistol brass when there is a crimping issue.
As long as I get a consistent crimp all the way around I don’t worry to much.
I have had to trim pistol brass that was well used and over time stretched and the case mouth get out of square and cause crimping problems.
I have had issues where 0.025 difference has caused a issue when the case mouth was not square and a heavy roll crimp was needed.
Now if I am pushing the load past the published limits all my brass will match in length with in 0.010
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Old February 23, 2015, 04:44 PM   #32
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An experiment I would like to see is how much pressure is increased by making the case volume less, as in deeper seating the bullet. How much pressure increase, using a specific powder, is involved with each .010" decrease in case volume? I know the differences will be caliber/powder/bullet specific, but in 10 or 12 years looking at reloading forums, all I've ever read/heard is "it can get dangerous", but no actual, real life facts (I've got a feeling that 98 out of 100 of those answers are just repeating what someone else said).

So, how much will pressure increase when using a case .040" short and crimping a 125 gr. JHP in the cannalure, over 8.5 gr. Unique? Over a SAAMI length case with the same bullet/powder? Just actual provable facts, and not "I tried shorter seating and got flattened primers"...
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Old February 23, 2015, 05:14 PM   #33
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Since I had once fired mixed brass, going through my process of reloading. Everything loaded just perfect until a hornady came to the plate. My rcbs single dropped the bullet 0.10-.015 under and I had no crimp.

And when I load my 357 rounds topped off, I don't go over powder of under length. Not even .003 under. Ok I might let one of two go by before adjusting.
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Old February 23, 2015, 05:17 PM   #34
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And for those that say .040" is insignificant, please let me know where you shoot so that I won't wind up next to you when you are shooting your .357 Magnum.
+1
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Old February 23, 2015, 07:04 PM   #35
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And for those that say .040" is insignificant, please let me know where you shoot so that I won't wind up next to you when you are shooting your .357 Magnum.
That .040 isn't part of the "capacity"

It's the part around the bullet, and capacity is the same UNLESS the COAL (and seating depth) is changed also

It only affects the crimp

Think about it before jumping to incorrect conclusions
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Old February 23, 2015, 07:46 PM   #36
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As I said, if I had a lot of short Hornadys, I would sort them out and adjust the dies for them every once in a while. I would adjust the expander, seater, and crimper down the .040" so they would be well formed and crimped in the crimp groove. (I avoid ungrooved revolver bullets.) I seldom load to the absolute maximum so I would not be on the razor edge of high pressure.

The rest of the time I would position the dies for my supply of regular Magnums which have been trimmed to the same length to crimp the same.
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Old February 23, 2015, 07:47 PM   #37
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The OP hasn't loaded the brass yet. So most of us were basing our concerns as if the OP were to load those .040" shorter cases, .040" shorter. i.e. seating to the cannelure and not measuring OAL. Like how most people load 357 Magnum.
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Old February 24, 2015, 11:07 AM   #38
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most of us were basing our concerns as if the OP were to load those .040" shorter cases, .040" shorter.
I believe most responses sounded like lines from a Wallis Berry movie. "Well then there little buddy it's OK".

If a reloader does not know the length of a case before firing the same reloader will never know what effect firing had on the case. There is always the question: It is stretch? Is it flow? Is it stretch and flow?

Then there is the either or. I can seat, I can crimp but I can not seat and crimp cases with a spread of .040" in length.

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Old February 24, 2015, 01:54 PM   #39
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Quote:
Quote:
And for those that say .040" is insignificant, please let me know where you shoot so that I won't wind up next to you when you are shooting your .357 Magnum.

That .040 isn't part of the "capacity"

It's the part around the bullet, and capacity is the same UNLESS the COAL (and seating depth) is changed also

It only affects the crimp

Think about it before jumping to incorrect conclusions
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OK, my post was not directed at a .040" difference in case length. Nowhere in that post do I mention capacity. My thought was (and others got it) that anyone thinking .040" is insignificant, for any dimension on a ,357 Magnum is one I don't want to be around when he fires that .357 magnum. An OAL .040" too long can have the bullet sticking out of the cylinder. A primer .040" high is not gonna work in any revolver. A cast lead bullet forced onto a hole .040" smaller than the bullet is gonna be quite an experience if fired over a hefty load of 2400. .040" is significant.

As a machinist, I have made parts with a .+/-. 0005" tolerance. As a mechanic I have thrown away engine parts that were .005" out of tolerance. So again, .040" is huge when yer talking .357" Magnum...

Think about it (and sharpen your sense of humor) before you jump to condemn one for a post that you didn't understand...
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Old February 25, 2015, 11:53 AM   #40
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Quote:
An experiment I would like to see is how much pressure is increased by making the case volume less, as in deeper seating the bullet. How much pressure increase, using a specific powder, is involved with each .010" decrease in case volume? I know the differences will be caliber/powder/bullet specific, but in 10 or 12 years looking at reloading forums, all I've ever read/heard is "it can get dangerous", but no actual, real life facts (I've got a feeling that 98 out of 100 of those answers are just repeating what someone else said).

So, how much will pressure increase when using a case .040" short and crimping a 125 gr. JHP in the cannalure, over 8.5 gr. Unique? Over a SAAMI length case with the same bullet/powder? Just actual provable facts, and not "I tried shorter seating and got flattened primers"...
No comments? No arguments? No takers...
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Old February 25, 2015, 12:38 PM   #41
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Quote:
No comments? No arguments? No takers
Well I doubt there is anybody in this thread that has the ability to do the test right using pressure sensors and what not .

It also appears there is know one in the thread with the quick loads program and is likely why you have no takers

I/we assume your looking for more then a guess ?
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Old February 25, 2015, 04:56 PM   #42
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I'd do it if I had the equipemnt to measure pressure. I just know that you can get .040" variance in seating depth and still stay in the cannelure, and I have yet to see somebody concern themselves with whether a bullet is crimped in the upper edge or the lower edge of the cannelure, and I'd hate to think anybody's loads would be so close to the danger threshhold that depending on what part of the cannelure they crimped in it could go from fine to disaster. Seating depth can increase pressure, but you have to look at it as a percentage of total case capacity which goes back to 9mm .040" is a big deal, but .357, not so much.
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Old February 25, 2015, 05:10 PM   #43
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I'm assuming we are talking the extremes here . Meaning you have a case that is .040 below min and you seat the bullet at top of cannelure seating the bullet 60 to 80 thou deeper then you should . Then there is the heavy/long bullet with no cannelure that may be seated even deeper .
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Old February 25, 2015, 06:34 PM   #44
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Quote:
Think about it (and sharpen your sense of humor) before you jump to condemn one for a post that you didn't understand...
I understood the post.

My comment was about the actual scenario in the OP and not all the other things

.040 short puts the cases halfway between a 357 and a 38 Spcl, so unless you're already at a max load, it probably won't make a noticeable difference.
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Old February 25, 2015, 07:22 PM   #45
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Such a fuss, when all one need do is buy enough FTX bullets to match. You have to know going in that Hornady headstamps need to be checked and segregated, since reuse will require a special setup of seat and crimp as well as expanding. Usually they make it easy by using nickel cases on these special rounds. That will not be the case with 45 Colt, where the bullets in brass cases double for rifle use, if not really intended for the rifle rather than the cowboy loads for the handgun. I have shot them in my Vaquero and can certainly tell they are not cowboy loads. I like 'em.

Ammo by Hornady that uses XTP bullets (Custom) will have standard cases. The FTX bullet has a special shape to allow expansion at lower velocities. Unfortunately, that shape won't feed/chamber without shortening the case while pretty much maintaining the COL.

The Critical Defense line is synonymous with use of FTX bullets.

Critical Duty uses Flexlock bullets which are related, but is a line meant to meet law enforcement standards and perform optimally in duty grade (size) weapons.

FTX bullets are marketed as they become available, but Flexlock probably not or hard to find.

I don't believe Hornady sells "short" brass to go with FTX bullets, but I believe the idea is to support reloading by offering at least the bullets.

Quote:
I found out the brass was short , oal was way under and could feel no crimp

I think ill scrap m

Why does hornady shorten the case length - to spike case pressure?
Boy, the last I would do is scrap good brass and which at least has a resale value.
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Old February 25, 2015, 09:46 PM   #46
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OK since we're done beating this dead horse

Instead of me starting a new thread let me ask a 9mm question here . I finally found some pistol powder after loading rifle cartridges for close to two years . I'm about to start loading 9mm for the first time . I've been going though some mixed once fired brass . Ive checked two of my three books and they say trim to .750 and the other .751 . The brass I've been checking is from .759 to .744

My question is what is to short . I've been trimming all cases to .750 and putting aside any cases that are below .748 . FWIW these have all been FL sized .

It's funny cus It feels like I've never loaded before . I'm unsure about a few things and I don't want to start charging cases I'll later have to pull .
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Old February 25, 2015, 09:50 PM   #47
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Tell you what....save those cases in a ziplock baggie and when you get several hundred of them send them to me and I will gladly find a use for them putting bullets down range.
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Old February 25, 2015, 10:40 PM   #48
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did some research and I get 9mm is GTG @ .744 to .754
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Old February 26, 2015, 07:16 AM   #49
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The FTX bullet has a special shape to allow expansion at lower velocities.
Uh...

The FTX bullet (Leverevolution ammo) is designed for lever guns...

Not sure how you believe that equates to expansion at lower velocities...
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Old February 26, 2015, 09:51 AM   #50
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I don't know the FTX expansion issues. The original idea behind it was to provide a higher ballistic coefficient bullet to chamberings for rifles with tubular magazines. These rifles normally cannot use pointed bullets because recoil or dropping the rifles can cause them to set off the primer of the next cartridge in the magazine column. The soft nose will not. The problem is that the carriers in these rifles have their length determined by the old blunt bullet cartridge loads, and the point of the FTX could not be given a short enough ogive radius to fit that blunt bullet overall length without losing most of the ballistic coefficient advantage. So they mostly had to shorten the cases using FTX bullets. The only exception would be for a cartridge whose blunt shapes stuck out of the case mouth far enough to accommodate the FTX ogive radius without shortening. This is why the FTX for 35 Remington does not need a shortened case.

Regarding minimum case length, for .357, since you can fire .38 Special in the same chambers, is not a technical issue other than needing adjust the load for the reduced powder space. In 9 mm, though, getting the case too short can cause feed issue by cause the bullet to have to turn too sharply coming off the magazine feed lips. In either case, if you want to know the official length, look at the cartridge drawing on the SAAMI web site under Cartridge and Chamber Drawings. (Note that the scripts on the SAAMI indices only work properly in Internet Explorer, a problem they are aware of and claim to be working on. You can still view individually linked files in any browser, though.) Just keep in mind that the tolerances are unilateral rather than the more familiar plus or minus. Unilateral tolerances are a standard engineering practice where a dimension is critical at one end of the tolerance range, but not the other. Critical is defined here as preventing assembly or completely disabling function. In such instances dimensions are given as the critical value, not the average value, and the tolerance is plus only or minus only, whichever way is in the direction of the non-critical end of the tolerance range.

Since a cartridge that is too big won't chamber, its critical linear dimensions are the maximum values, with the tolerance given as a minus number only. For chambers, since you can't fit a round in an undersized chamber, it is the other way around, and linear chamber dimensions are minimum values with a plus tolerance. So when you look at case lengths and see a number followed by a minus sign, that does not mean you are supposed to subtract that value from the given number. It is just the tolerance.

For 9 mm, the case length in the SAAMI drawing is 0.754-0.010". So the range is 0.744-0.754, with the smaller number not critical. The normal trim value would be the halfway point, or 0.749", though many prefer to use 0.75" because that's an even ¾" which is easy to remember and isn't far from the midpoint.

For .357 Magnum, the case length in the SAAMI drawing is 1.290"-0.020", so 1.270" to 1.290" is the normal range, with normal trim at the halfway point of 1.280". But, as I mentioned, you can shoot .38 Special in .357 Chambers, so when they say that smaller end of the range is non-critical, they really mean it. You simply adjust your loads according to the powder space you have.

So, Milkd want's an experiment. That's the right idea. But it's colder than a well diggers backside outdoors here, so all I can offer up are QuickLOAD's assessments.

How much difference does 0.040" make to the .357 in the software? It depends how deeply the bullet is seated. A long, heavy bullet seats pretty deeply, making the powder space much smaller. Adding or subtracting 0.040" of seating depth makes a bigger percentage of difference to a small powder space to a bigger one under a short bullet. Using jacketed bullets and Winchester 296 or Hodgdon H110 (different brands of the same powder), I find seating a 110 grain bullet deeper takes 100% case fill to 106.7% load density (compressed 6.7%), and raises pressure about 15%. That's just within the allowance for individual cartridges involved in measuring an average pressure value, which the CIP gives as +15%, and SAAMI gives as a maximum spread from a formula that usually winds up being a little over +18% for the worst case combination possible. For the Hornady 180 grain silhouette bullet, 0.040" of deeper seating takes a 100% case fill to 109.8% load density (9.8% compressed) and raises pressure about 25.5%, which is a bit much.

For 9 mm, with its shorter powder column, the differences are proportionally bigger.

So, final question, how real is that result? There's no simple answer. The problem is that, especially when powder space gets small, there is a tendency for primers to unseat the bullet so that it has already started moving when the powder is first trying to build pressure. The slower the powder, the more effect this has on the actual burn profile. QuickLOAD just assumes the bullet stays in place until a certain pressure threshold is reached, as it typically does for the larger volume in rifle cartridge cases.

Here's an example: At Hodgdon's load data site they show a 148 grain wadcutter seated flush with the case mouth using 3.4 grains Winchester 231/HP38 reaches 17,600 CUP in a .357 case. But in a shorter 38 Special case, with the same bullet also flush with that shorter case's mouth, thereby packing the powder into a much tighter space, it nonetheless takes a larger 4.0 grain charge of the same powder to reach just 15,900 CUP. What has almost certainly happened is the primer has easily pressurized the smaller space enough to get the bullet moving more than has happened with the same bullet in the longer case. QuickLOAD thinks the .357 version of the load should only run about 12,000 psi, while the 38 Special load should be at 23,000 psi. The .357 prediction may be close, considering how much copper crushers can err at these low pressure values. But I think primer push is the only thing keeping the load within bounds for the .38 special.

So, if someone in pleasant weather wants to try the experiment, and has access to a chronograph, try loading 50 rounds of .357 with 0.040" seating depth difference or with actual short Hornady cases if need be. If the bullet has a wide enough cannelure, you may be able to crimp into the bottom edge of the cannelure crimped into for 25 of them and the top edge crimped into for the other 25. Otherwise, don't crimp. Just fire them one at a time, so cylinder bullet pull doesn't affect the result, and report the average velocities for each set of 25. If QuickLOAD is right, you'll get average velocity differences of over 50 fps to as much as 80 fps. If the average velocity difference is smaller than that, so is the difference in pressure. Given normal manufacturing tolerances and the effect of primer unseating, I am expecting the latter to turn out to be true, but there's nothing like making the pudding for proof.

The reason I'm suggesting so many rounds per sample is that the difference may be small enough that without a large sample random overlap could cover up a lot of actual difference. So a large sample is needed to be sure the difference is real. A t-test can be used to find how much confidence we have that a difference is real. It could probably be worked with a smaller sample, but the human eye won't see the difference as clearly, then.
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