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Old April 9, 2024, 04:31 PM   #1
L. Boscoe
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Luger clones?

Having never seen a German Luger from WWII, I often hear opinions about how ingenious the mechanism was/is
Did anybody ever copy it?
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Old April 9, 2024, 04:55 PM   #2
wild cat mccane
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No. Unfortunately.

I bet there is a few dollars to be made from buyers, but apparently the internet will tell you it's too expensive to mass produce a barrel with a mag attached to it
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Old April 9, 2024, 05:24 PM   #3
Jim Watson
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Did anybody ever copy it?
Sorry, wild cat, there was a stainless steel copy made in Texas from 1993 and sold by Mitchell. I think some went to Stoeger who could even mark them "Luger" having maintained the trademark for many years.

Mauser made Lugers from around 1970, are those copies or reintroduction models?
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Old April 9, 2024, 05:57 PM   #4
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I read people have replaced (not relined) worn barrel on Luger. They cut the barrel off. Tapped the stump to turn it into a receiver to receive a threaded, shouldered barrel, just like in a Mauser rifle. Perhaps they needed to go to a smaller caliber in order to have enough steel to do all that.

Similar concept can be put to new guns. However I doubt there is enough market for such a thing. Original Luger is one thing. New Luger is another. The design is actually not that great for practical use.

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Old April 9, 2024, 06:16 PM   #5
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Why bother? It takes a good action wrench but is straightforward rebarreling.
I have seen it done to Mausers where the barrel is integral to the upper receiver.

Oh, yeah, there are a couple of places that have scratch built .45 Lugers.
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Old April 9, 2024, 08:07 PM   #6
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Hello, I have a Mitchell arms Stainless copy. It was made sometime ago. 93 or 94, It seems to be identical, with the exception of being stainless. It runs very well. For searching purposes it is called an American Eagle.

Worth a look

Rich
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Old April 9, 2024, 11:07 PM   #7
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Mauser reintroduced the Parabellum in the 1970s, under a contract with Interarms, which had obtained original tooling from the Swiss.
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Old April 10, 2024, 06:07 AM   #8
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Luger Man makes top of the line ones, I would love one in 45ACP. They’re not inexpensive.
https://lugerman.com/
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Old April 10, 2024, 01:57 PM   #9
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I think some went to Stoeger who could even mark them "Luger" having maintained the trademark for many years.
I have a 4" stainless, Stoeger "American Eagle". A friend of mine just got a 6" off a Gunbroker auction. Nicely polished, metal, beautifully checkered wood grips, they are excellent reproductions of the P.08 pistol. EXCEPT for one thing... original Luger magazines will not work in them. The magazine catch location is just enough "off" from the European Lugers that the mags will not lock into place. (at least on my gun).

Stoeger has owned the rights to the name "Luger" since the 1920s or so, and as far as I know, still does. i have a couple of Stoeger Luger .22 pistols. They ARE Lugers, they have a toggle action, but they are not copies of the Mauser Parabellum, just similar in appearance.

Quote:
Mauser made Lugers from around 1970, are those copies or reintroduction models?
The Mauser Parabellum offered in the 70s is the Swiss pattern. IT is not identical to the P.08, having a straight grip frame and a grip safety. Mauser no longer had the tooling to make Lugers, the Swiss still had theirs, and Mauser either borrowed, leased, or bought it (not sure which).

They guns were, of course well made, but were not a big commercial success, even among Luger fanciers, who didn't mind the price. Swiss pattern Lugers look a bit "odd" due to the different grip frame and aren't high on people's want list if they want a "real Luger".

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I read people have replaced (not relined) worn barrel on Luger. They cut the barrel off. Tapped the stump to turn it into a receiver to receive a threaded, shouldered barrel, just like in a Mauser rifle.
That would be a rather stupid thing to do, unless the Luger was horribly damaged already. Luger barrels are threaded into the action the normal way, same as most rifles, and revolvers and many other guns. Numrich Arms (aka The Gun Parts Corp) sold Luger barrels (in the white, usually) for generations. All it takes is a competent gunsmith with the right tools to replace a Luger barrel.

Quote:
The design is actually not that great for practical use.
TODAY.

There's a boatload of better, more practical 9mm pistols available today. In 1902 Luger was the only one. Mass production ended in 1942 when Nazi Germany stopped making them in order to use those resources for other things more important to their war effort.

The toggle action is very efficient, Luger triggers are not great, but generally not crap, and can be improved if you know how and feel its worth the effort. (with nearly ALL Lugers being expensive collectors pieces these days, it's not worth it). Sights are basic and fairly coarse (other than the artillery model) its a neat gun. I've had a few. Don't expect them to run well (or sometimes, run at all) on anything but the ammo they were made for.

One of the things I enjoy about the Luger today is using it as and exception to pop the balloon of people who make over broad sweeping statements about "all striker fired pistols" when what they are talking about are the current crop of striker fired guns (GLocks, etc.) The Luger is striker fired!

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Old April 10, 2024, 02:12 PM   #10
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Stoeger "American Eagle". EXCEPT for one thing... original Luger magazines will not work in them. The magazine catch location is just enough "off" from the European Lugers that the mags will not lock into place.

I read an advertisement for one for sale with the magazine catch modified for standard type magazines. Probably MecGar these days.

The Mauser Parabellum offered in the 70s is the Swiss pattern. IT is not identical to the P.08, having a straight grip frame and a grip safety. Mauser no longer had the tooling to make Lugers, the Swiss still had theirs, and Mauser either borrowed, leased, or bought it (not sure which).

Mauser STARTED with the Swiss pattern straight front strap but then offered 1906 and P08 grip frames. I looked hard at a Target model with P08 grip, heavy barrel, and adjustable sights but my job was in doubt at the time. I much later saw a nice 1906 6" but passed on it because the grip safety was SO stiff.

Don't expect them to run well (or sometimes, run at all) on anything but the ammo they were made for.

Original 9mm was a 124 gr (8 gram) truncated cone about 1040 fps, later replaced by a 115 gr (7.5 gram) roundnose at 1150 fps, same as current econoball. "Hot loads" not needed or wanted. One student of the type said an overloaded Luger looks a lot like an underloaded Luger.
But a friend's 1923 DWM/Tikka was only reliable with my 145 gr subsonic ammo, regular FMJ not so great.
My 1936 S/42 was reliable with Canadian surplus but not US commercial.
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Old April 10, 2024, 03:36 PM   #11
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Ha! I welcome being wrong...but man, at the prices I'm seeing for replica, I might as well have been right
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Old April 10, 2024, 05:35 PM   #12
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I had a 1936 S/42 and it ran flawlessly on Federal American Eagle 124gr and 115gr ball.

Each Luger seems to be a law unto themselves what they run on, without "tweaking".

Though sometimes all that's needed is good lubrication. ...sometimes...
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Old April 10, 2024, 07:55 PM   #13
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Wow those lugerman pistols are expensive!!!
Very nice but man does nostalgia cost!!! So many better options available.

Good luck
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Old April 11, 2024, 12:51 AM   #14
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So many better options available.
For what??

For a "service pistol?? Sure.

For a Luger? Only Lugers are Lugers and the only new made Lugers at this time are expensive semi custom items.
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Old April 11, 2024, 06:30 AM   #15
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While Luger is a registered trade name for Stoeger, DWM was the original German manufacturer. Ludwig Loewe had acquired the Mauser factory and also started FN in Belgium. His brother was on the board of directors at Vickers in England, Vickers also made a few Parabellum pistols. .

After WWII Mauser had one production run of Parabellum pistols called the 29/70, which is based on the Swiss pattern. They also had another run based on the P.08, using a mix of refurbished, old stock, and new parts. East Germany had the P.08 used in the military and later in the police forces and the GST, they made parts and magazines in the old factories and built a few new P.08 pistols.

Krieghoff had a small number of P.08 pattern made for them and sold them under their name.

29/70


Mauser 1942 P.08 VOPO, it has the typical Mauser hump, when Mauser started making their own frames.


I had a few more P.08s over the years and kept the above pistol because it is the most accurate I had seen. VOPO armourers hade installed a new barrel, made in the Czech factory that had produced the P.38 barrel in WWII. The trigger bar is fitted perfectly and I have used this gun successfully in a few service pistol competitions.

Last edited by PzGren; April 11, 2024 at 06:38 AM.
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Old April 11, 2024, 12:55 PM   #16
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I have seen and handled a number of users over the years but have never shot one - and I am far far from being knowledgeable on them or an exert by any stretch of the mind

From what few things I have read on the "net" - and we know they MUST be "true" 'cause they were on the "net" . . . . . I read one time that the expense of getting set up and producing them would probably be way too much if the original quality was maintained - in regards to market demand of those who could possibly afford them. Truex or not, I don't know.

My question though to those that do know . . . isn't the reason that the Nazis started producing the P-38s = at least partially - was because they were cheaper and quicker to produce than Lugers? Judging from the P-38s I've seen and handled over the years - it seems like a feasible explanation?

My Dad - born in 1908 - told me several times about hunting with a group of guys when he was a kid - he said that he used an old "Zulu" shotgun, but that one of the guys had a luger he had brunt back from WWI. He said the guy was a crack shot with it and had no trouble bagging bunnies with it if he could catch them sitting in the snow - and he usually bagged 3 or 4 everything they went hunting.

I have admired Lugers for her 60 years but never have owned one. It would be nice if someone produced a high quality repro of them, but perhaps the production start up and actual production costs would exceed what the market would bear?
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Old April 11, 2024, 02:00 PM   #17
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DWM never made a single "Luger", technically. They made the Pistole Parabellum.

Georg Luger redesigned the Borchardt pistol to create the Parabellum. The fellow in charge of US marketing for the Parabellum (I forget his name but you can find it with some research) used the name "Luger" because he believed that American buyers would find it easier to remember and more appealing than the "foreign sounding" Parabellum.

Stoeger apparently thought he was right, and after some years and negotiations, purchased the legal rights to the name "Luger" and in a bit of uncommon foresight, kept that legal right, renewing it as needed, and, I think still owns it.

Quote:
My question though to those that do know . . . isn't the reason that the Nazis started producing the P-38s = at least partially - was because they were cheaper and quicker to produce than Lugers? Judging from the P-38s I've seen and handled over the years - it seems like a feasible explanation?
It is exactly the reason, partially.

When Nazi Germany began their rearmament and expansion of their armed forces in 1935 the focus was primarily on new designs. New designs of planes, tanks, and small arms were part of that. Germany had Lugers, and could make Lugers, and they continued to do so, but the Walther design, adopted in 1938 was going to be the primary pistol. Lugers were to be the secondary service pistol. The Walther design was simpler, more modern, the parts were simpler to make, so less time and labor was needed per unit, and that made them cheaper to manufacture.

Germany kept making Lugers, the rapid expansion of their military left them critically short of pistols, a condition that was never fully rectified, which is why you see so many different types and non-German pistols in German service.

Germany ended production of the P.08 in 1942, so that the production capacity could be used for other things deemed more vital to the war effort.

Under the German rearmament plan, something was going to (eventually) replace the P.08 as their primary service pistol. They chose the Walther because it was the best GERMAN thing offered, and I'm sure the fact that it was simpler (and therefore less costly) to make had a role in that, as well.
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Old April 11, 2024, 02:26 PM   #18
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My former coworker Eugene was a scientist who escaped the Soviet Union. He wanted to have a parabellum. It took me a while to understand he wanted a Luger.

Eugene also said Kalashnikov didn't design the AK. He was just a propaganda front man, just like Yuri Gagarin of the Soviet space program, a peasant's son made cosmonaut, only possible under socialism.

The mosin nagant rifle. It was always called mosin. Eugene didn't know part of the design was nagant till I showed him the information. Nagant revolver was called nagant though, if I remember correctly.

-TL

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Last edited by tangolima; April 11, 2024 at 02:31 PM.
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Old April 11, 2024, 03:32 PM   #19
Jim Watson
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There is a dedicated forum. The minutae of Lugers will burn your brain out. As one wit said, there were two million Lugers manufactured and a collector will tell you that each one is a separate and distinct model.
https://www.lugerforums.com
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Old April 11, 2024, 03:57 PM   #20
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Regarding running well: The Luger is about the easiest auto to limpwrist. It requires a VERY firm grip. Once you figure that out, it tends to work well with any reasonable ammo.
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Old April 12, 2024, 01:26 PM   #21
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"Limpwristing" is a vague term without any values, usually applied when a semi auto does not function as expected and the shooter or observer has no idea what the actual cause is.

IF it is even a real thing, (and I'm not convinced it is) then it is simply another example of operator error, like short stroking a manually operated repeater, or not releasing the trigger enough to allow it to reset. This is a training issue, NOT a gun issue.
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Old April 12, 2024, 06:59 PM   #22
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The Parabellum did not suffer so much from limp wristing but from an imbalance of springs. The P.08 I have pictured above was bought from a prominent East German gun collector who had an incredible wealth of knowledge. I learnt more from him than on the Lugerforum, the rest was filled in by Hallock & van de Kant, abook that sells for the same price like an entry level Parabellum.
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Old April 13, 2024, 12:20 PM   #23
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Is "an imbalance of springs" like having "an excess of vapors"???


a charming term, identifying an issue, but explaining nothing....
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Old April 13, 2024, 07:22 PM   #24
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Replacement Luger barrels, and repro barrels, are common; "cutting it off to a stump" is an operation for Broomhandle Mausers.
Mauser bought the Swiss tooling, and over time modified it to make a very P08 variant. I've "heard" they still have parts sets, and if you want it badly enough, will make a new Luger for you.
Nice, original guns are really not that expensive, in a world of $5000 1911s and P210s.
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Old April 13, 2024, 10:12 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by RickB View Post
Replacement Luger barrels, and repro barrels, are common; "cutting it off to a stump" is an operation for Broomhandle Mausers.
Mauser bought the Swiss tooling, and over time modified it to make a very P08 variant. I've "heard" they still have parts sets, and if you want it badly enough, will make a new Luger for you.
Nice, original guns are really not that expensive, in a world of $5000 1911s and P210s.
You are right. I mixed up with the broomhandle. I have both.

The Luger toggle action works differently from other designs. The toggle grips (knuckles) hit the frame pretty early, after traveling 1/4" or so. The speed is high, and the incline plane angle is steep. The felt recoil is stout, and a small component of that force is diverted to pop the toggle. If the shooter doesn't fight the recoil enough (limp wrist) the cycling may not complete.

Conventional designs allow the recoil spring fully compressed before the slide hits the frame. Limp wrist therefore is not as critical. By the same token lugers are said to prefer hotter loads. But I haven't had any issues with my mid range 9mm hand loads.

My Luger is a reblued mix master shooter in 9mm, with an erroneous artillery rear toggle (no rear sight). I was looking for one in .30 Luger for originality. Settled with this one for its price. 9mm Luger is not too far off. Paid quite a small sum to replace the wrong rear toggle. Have yet to sell the old part to recoup the cost.

With the linkage and funny disconnector in between, the trigger indeed has quite a bit to be desired. With some tinkering it becomes mostly agreeable. One thing I have noticed though, the metal in the sear tends to be soft. I need to watch out the engagement angle to catch it before it wears to negative.

-TL

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