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Old March 5, 2021, 04:56 PM   #151
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I have read this thread... and have come to the conclusion I'm confused. I have no desire to damage my extractor, or shoot through walls with my 9mm, .357, .45 or 10mm.

I need to sell my guns and just get a Lightsaber.
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Old March 5, 2021, 05:22 PM   #152
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Admittedly, it's the same folks talking between and at each other.

But if we were all to came together, we'd find more similarities than differences.

Finally, in the end, we can all agree the 10mm FPS and Muzzle Energy that is so often stated isn't substantiated to anything but variation in results....
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Old March 5, 2021, 05:56 PM   #153
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10mm vs .40 rounds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan0354 View Post
I did read article long time ago comparing FMJ and JHP in going through walls, big difference.

That's my point, comparing 9mm to 45 only. Here we talk about 10mm, it is much worst. I just do my best to stop the intruders with minimal force, not being Rambo. Just want the minimum to get the job done in home defense.

Ha ha, all the windows in the house are double windows with 1/4" safety laminated glass and 1/4" lacent(I think) that is polymer, those for bullet proof if thicker. I paid a lot of money for that.

Even JHPs will go straight through most building materials. That’s what I’ve been talking about and as mentioned you can find videos showing this. Will FMJs go through more of them were we to stack them? Very likely, but modern hollowpoints are designed to shoot through barriers and not expand while doing so. This is in part because there are real world situations where you want to be able to defeat barriers even when using hollowpoints. What I’ve been saying is 9mm, 45ACP, or 10mm will all penetrate through the exterior walls of a home, even in hollowpoint form.

I get the feeling you didn’t get my point at all, whether for obtuseness or the strongest case of confirmation bias I’ve seen in a while. If it’s a failure in my explanation I don’t know how to make it clearer. Best of luck.


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Old March 5, 2021, 05:57 PM   #154
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Finally, in the end, we can all agree the 10mm FPS and Muzzle Energy that is so often stated isn't substantiated to anything but variation in results....
Hmmm,I might have heard you claim that before!
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Old March 5, 2021, 07:54 PM   #155
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I am not worry about accidentally hurting people in the house, I am more worry about going through my house and go into neighbor's house and hurt someone there. The outer wall is a lot stronger than sheetrock.
Not unless your exterior walls are solid brick, all the way around.

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You can find videos of all the standard pistol calibers going through plywood and cedar shingles or the like. 17 sheets of dry wall stacked together is not an insignificant barrier and most homes these days are framing and paneling that is meant to provide heat/cold protection. They aren’t designed to stop incoming bullets.
This is VERY true. As building codes continue to require more/better insulation, the construction of exterior walls has gotten less, rather than more, substantial. 40 years ago a typical exterior wall of a house was 2x4s at 16" on center, 1/2" CDX plywood exterior sheathing, aluminum or vinyl siding, and 1/2" sheetrock on the inside.

20 years ago that had changed to 2x6s at 24" on center, 7/16" OSB (Oriented Strand Board) sheathing, aluminum or vinyl siding, and 1/2" sheetrock on the interior.

Today it's more typical to find plywood or OSB only on the corners, for wind bracing. The rest of the exterior walls is 2x4s or 2x6s at 24" on center, lightweight foam plastic sheathing, vinyl siding, and 1/2" sheetrock on the inside. Unless a shot hits a stud, that won't even slow a bullet enough to make any difference whatsoever.
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Old March 5, 2021, 08:07 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
Even JHPs will go straight through most building materials. That’s what I’ve been talking about and as mentioned you can find videos showing this. Will FMJs go through more of them were we to stack them? Very likely, but modern hollowpoints are designed to shoot through barriers and not expand while doing so. This is in part because there are real world situations where you want to be able to defeat barriers even when using hollowpoints. What I’ve been saying is 9mm, 45ACP, or 10mm will all penetrate through the exterior walls of a home, even in hollowpoint form.

I get the feeling you didn’t get my point at all, whether for obtuseness or the strongest case of confirmation bias I’ve seen in a while. If it’s a failure in my explanation I don’t know how to make it clearer. Best of luck.


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Watched a lot of youtube video, it's disappointing that it doesn't make that big a difference.

But there are some difference, JHP is definitely better than FMJ. 20 gauge shotgun with smaller bird shot is the best.

38special seems to penetrate the least walls.

45 penetrates as much as 9mm, but at least it dump more energy on the criminal's body when hit.

Last edited by Alan0354; March 5, 2021 at 08:17 PM.
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Old March 5, 2021, 08:13 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
Not unless your exterior walls are solid brick, all the way around.


This is VERY true. As building codes continue to require more/better insulation, the construction of exterior walls has gotten less, rather than more, substantial. 40 years ago a typical exterior wall of a house was 2x4s at 16" on center, 1/2" CDX plywood exterior sheathing, aluminum or vinyl siding, and 1/2" sheetrock on the inside.

20 years ago that had changed to 2x6s at 24" on center, 7/16" OSB (Oriented Strand Board) sheathing, aluminum or vinyl siding, and 1/2" sheetrock on the interior.

Today it's more typical to find plywood or OSB only on the corners, for wind bracing. The rest of the exterior walls is 2x4s or 2x6s at 24" on center, lightweight foam plastic sheathing, vinyl siding, and 1/2" sheetrock on the inside. Unless a shot hits a stud, that won't even slow a bullet enough to make any difference whatsoever.
My house are from the late 60s, The exterior wall has 1/2" plywood with like 1/2" to 5/8" of stucco ( cement with wire mash). The 2X4 are like 14" apart. Not that it makes much of a difference.
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Old March 5, 2021, 08:15 PM   #158
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Not to worry. Center mass, and it's all over with either.
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Old March 5, 2021, 08:38 PM   #159
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In the end it is all academic. As I stated clean your gun. No I would not do so as a carry load, only for range use.

Simple logistics, I have thousands of 40 rounds and a few hundred 10mm rounds. If I had a source of 10mm brass it would be different. I am sure others are in the same boat.

Just don't shoot 9mm's in your 10mm.
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Old March 5, 2021, 09:00 PM   #160
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Ok guys, Since I am actually the thread starter( I almost forgot already!!). I thought I have it all figure out already, now I know the penetration is not very difference between different caliber JHP( yes, there is still quite a difference from FMJ, still better). So my choice is 9mm, .40S&W and 45ACP. I don't want 10mm, from what I read today also, 10mm is more expensive, a lot of power, not exactly what I want.

I don't know enough about ballistics, is .40 better than 9mm for self defense? Is 45ACP better than both?

I did see one video that 45ACP penetrated a little less than 9mm, not a big difference, but a few inches less in the ballistic gel.

I am still looking around for Sig SP2022 40, and I'll see the price of the HK P2000SK. I don't know of any DA/SA 45ACP legal in Kalif.
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Old March 5, 2021, 09:21 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan0354 View Post
Ok guys, Since I am actually the thread starter( I almost forgot already!!). I thought I have it all figure out already, now I know the penetration is not very difference between different caliber JHP( yes, there is still quite a difference from FMJ, still better). So my choice is 9mm, .40S&W and 45ACP. I don't want 10mm, from what I read today also, 10mm is more expensive, a lot of power, not exactly what I want.

I don't know enough about ballistics, is .40 better than 9mm for self defense? Is 45ACP better than both?

I did see one video that 45ACP penetrated a little less than 9mm, not a big difference, but a few inches less in the ballistic gel.

I am still looking around for Sig SP2022 40, and I'll see the price of the HK P2000SK. I don't know of any DA/SA 45ACP legal in Kalif.

Isn’t there a roster of CA legal guns that you can reference? I thought it was linked during one of your past threads.


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Old March 5, 2021, 09:29 PM   #162
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Isn’t there a roster of CA legal guns that you can reference? I thought it was linked during one of your past threads.


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I was looking at the list back and fore already. For 45, the only DA/SA I find so far is HK Comp USP 45......$1100!!! I only found Sig SP2022 40 and HK P2000SK in .40. Not much of a choice. Then will be Glock type that is not exactly DA.

I love Glock, just prefer DA/SA for home defense. It'll stay under the bed, chamber loaded and fire just by pulling the trigger. It would be nice to have a DA first shot. Put it this way, if I can't find anything, Glock is still good. it's really not exactly SA. But I am not at that point yet.
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Old March 5, 2021, 09:55 PM   #163
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That is rough. It's interesting to me the number of HK pistols on that list. I didn't realize HK had that many pistols on this list.

In terms of DA/SA pistols generally you're looking at Beretta, CZ, EAA, FN, HK, SIG Sauer, and Walther with their P99 (and other clones). You'd have to go through the list and see which of their 45 ACP models are available. Generally speaking they're not going to be very cheap.
https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/certified-handguns/search

A cursory look for 45 ACP shows the CZ 97, HK Comp USP 45, HK USP 45 Elite, HK USP 45 Expert, HK USP Compact 45, HK USP45, SIG P220, and SIG P220R (in different finishes).
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Old March 6, 2021, 05:21 AM   #164
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At the mean time, I am watching a lot of youtube on different bullets. So far I found 3 that seems to stand out in minimum penetration through walls.

1) Hornaday Zombie Max either in 45 or .40
2) Federal EFMJ.....surprising it's FMJ but it expand quite well. It mushroomed hitting water.
3) Ruger ARX, never heard of this!!

I know, they all go through walls, but there are some that are better.

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Old March 6, 2021, 08:22 AM   #165
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Carry what you shoot the best.

I have carry guns in 44 mag, 357 mag, 10mm, 40 S&W and 9mm.

I carry a Dan Wesson Vigil 9mm commander.
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Old March 6, 2021, 10:30 AM   #166
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I am starting to see why this is going on so long

Did no one look at the testing done by the largest US manufacture of ammunition? (I say that in a friendly manner)

Here it is from a Federal expert on bullets. Muzzle Energy, Muzzle Velocity, and with handgun caliber ONLY matter to what it does to expansion AND penetration. There is no fantastic caliber. They all do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kUvi72s0Y

Vista has posted a website with tests for LE using wallboard, plywood, windshields (with angle), ballistic jell, and steel plates.

They did this with their premium hollow points. ZIP. Right through all of them. All rounds and into jell at normal depth after hitting common material. Shoot, the 9mm went through a steel plate and then went 27" in jell.

And not one test shows one caliber is better than the other in all materials.

Don't worry about going through your house with one caliber and not all the others. They all will in the same shot that one does and none will where one didn't. Probably. But it won't be what you think it is that causes it. 357 Sig beat 9mm in everything...except 9mm beat it through steel. And by A LOT. HST and Gold Dot did this.
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Old March 6, 2021, 11:36 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan0354
I don't know enough about ballistics, is .40 better than 9mm for self defense? Is 45ACP better than both?
The simple, truthful, unbiased answer is as follows...

Generally speaking, 9mm Luger has the most penetration, but the least energy. .45 ACP has the most energy but the least penetration. .40 S&W is nestled snugly between 9mm Luger and .45 ACP, featuring more energy than 9mm Luger, but slightly less than .45 ACP, and more penetration than .45 ACP, but slightly less than 9mm Luger.

Which is "best" is entirely subjective.

There's no such thing as the ideal, one-size-fits-all cartridge for self-defense because people are individuals and thusly what some find suits them perfectly may not work out at all for others.
Case in point, some folks find the recoil impulse of .40 S&W to be detrimental towards speed and accuracy, but I find that I shoot it just as well as 9mm Luger defensive loads, with no noticeable difference in speed nor accuracy.

9mm Luger is currently the most popular duty cartridge worldwide, which it will most likely remain until the invention of the Hand Phaser, and it's no surprise why. Folks of all shapes and sizes shoot it very well because it doesn't have much if any felt recoil in full-size duty weapons, the grip size necessary to accommodate the 9x19mm cartridge fits most hands well, and the cartridge offers more than enough in terms of ballistics performance to stop a threat with proper shot placement, thus making it the ideal cartridge for outfitting an entire agency or army because pretty much everyone will be able to shoot it well, regardless of their size, shape, grip strength, etc.
It's an extremely well-rounded cartridge, hence why so many folks swear by it, with many even going so far as to push it as the illusive ideal, but whether or not it is so is up to individual discretion.

That's the most honest, truthful, unbiased answer that you are likely to receive, so be prepared for the distinct possibility of responses which essentially amount to; "Whatever I carry is the best because reasons and anyone who carries anything else is dumb!" Only they won't be anywhere near as quick about it, and will likely bombard you with links to a wide variety of things to support their argument.

Good luck.
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Old March 6, 2021, 01:02 PM   #168
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10mm vs .40 rounds

The only add on I would make to the above comment is the energy and penetration differences of the different cartridges can vary by load even within a manufacturer (sometimes a fair amount). Penetration depths are also controlled by design to have similar results.

If you look at Federal HST and compare 147 gr 9mm, 180 gr 40SW, and 230 gr HST they all penetrate to the same depth in bare gelatin (12”). In gelatin behind heavy clothing the 45 ACP actually penetrates an inch more than the others, at 13.5” vs 12.5”. Through steel the 9mm and 45 ACP both penetrate to 17.5”, but the 40SW only penetrates to 11”. Through wallboard and plywood the 9mm penetrates more (by 1” and 2-3” respectively). Auto glass shows the 40SW penetrating 3” more than the others.

https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ba...omparison.aspx

But then we have the fact that even within HST there are different weight bullets and +P options. Those add their own variation (I.E. the 165 gr 40SW penetrates to the same depths as the others after going through steel). And of course HST isn’t the only bullet. Gold Dot, Golden Saber, Critical Duty and Critical Defense, etc. Then you have testing variation such as how many rounds were used for an average, was the ballistic gel calibrated, etc. And of course some people don’t think ballistics gel captures the whole picture. There are other mediums such as meat shanks that can be used.

In terms of trade offs does the greater energy of the larger calibers offset the increased recoil and lesser capacity. Of course being in CA you don’t have the same capacity availability as others. The 9mm doesn’t expand as much, at best being comparable to the 40SW in some cases. 45ACP expands more than either. And of course 40SW and 45ACP are penetrating to those depths with heavier weight bullets (more mass).

You can get lost in the weeds in this. I think any of those can work just fine.


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Old March 6, 2021, 01:10 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan0354
I know, they all go through walls, but there are some that are better.
Better at what? Going through walls, or stopping live threats without doing through walls?

In an earlier post, you expressed a desire for a round that is less likely to penetrate walls. In terms of handgun rounds, you are going to have to accept that they pretty much ALL go right through typical residential construction, including exterior walls. The caliber of choice among gang bangers in the city nearest me is 9mm. The news reports don't get down to telling us what specific brand and type of ammunition is used, but last year alone there were multiple drive-by shootings in which stray rounds went through walls, from the street into occupied houses or apartments. In some of those cases nobody was injured (by the stray rounds), in some of them people were wounded, and in one of them a little girl was killed.

In my opinion, you are going to have to make a choice -- a round that is most likely to be effective against a live threat is also probably going to go right through the walls of your house. Very possibly multiple walls of your house, and maybe through the wall of your neighbor's house. That's the reality of the situation.

You might want to look into specialty cartridges that are designed to fragment when they hit inanimate construction. The name that comes to mind is the Glaser Safety Slug, but there are others.
https://shopcorbon.com/Glaser/Safety-Slug-Blue

Here's a repiort on how well (or poorly) a number of common rounds ranging from .22 up through rifles and shotgun slugs performed through various types of wall construction. It includes two samples of stucco wall (although in this test the walls were shot from the exterior rather than the interior. In the case of stucco, particularly, I believe that stucco would be mush less capable of stopping a bullet fired from the inside.
https://www.claybrick.ca/site/clay_b...of_project.pdf
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Old March 6, 2021, 03:19 PM   #170
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Will this string of replies never end? Lol

What is best? IMO, it’s what you shoot best and what you have ammo to feed these days.
To shift gears, What’s your “most powerful ammo”?
30-06 here but I gave my M1 Garand to my daughter. Still have some M1 Garand ammo to sell.
Still have my 12 gauge 870 with mil spec 00 buckshot ammo. I suppose that is now the most powerful in my stable.
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Old March 6, 2021, 04:27 PM   #171
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Thanks guys for all the information. I read through all the posts at least twice and went through the links provided. I also spent a lot of time combing through youtube videos also.

I am looking for a caliber and brand of ammo that produce the MINIMAL penetration through the walls to avoid injuring neighbors. Apparently all 9mm, .40 and 45ACP penetrate quite a bit. From the youtube and here, 45ACP penetrates a little less than .40 and .40 a little less than 9mm with comparable rounds. The two that are better are 38Special and better yet 380ACP. I can attest to how little the 380ACP penetrates. I accidentally shot a 380 with my PPK long time ago with Winchester Silver Tip. It barely went through a 3/4" wood cabinet. The tip expanded a little ( now, this is actually my own experience first hand with ears ringing for over a day!!)

A lot of new info to digest, stopping power vs safety for innocent people. I am not ruling out just using 380 or 38 special particular I can use Glaser round in 38 revolvers. I have a few Glaser loaded in my Colt Trouper for my wife already.

From watching more youtube, penetration in 2x4 or 2x6, 380 and 45 are quite close, of cause 45 goes a little deeper, but no by a lot.

Lot to think about and more youtube to watch. At the mean time, I am loading up my 20 Gauge shotgun with 18" barrel and pistol grip.

Thanks

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Old March 6, 2021, 08:04 PM   #172
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Did no one look at the testing done by the largest US manufacture of ammunition? (I say that in a friendly manner)
Manufacturer claims have been disputed for decades. Especially with widespread use of chronographs.
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Old March 6, 2021, 08:05 PM   #173
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Generally speaking, 9mm Luger has the most penetration, but the least energy. .45 ACP has the most energy but the least penetration. .40 S&W is nestled snugly between 9mm Luger and .45 ACP, featuring more energy than 9mm Luger, but slightly less than .45 ACP, and more penetration than .45 ACP, but slightly less than 9mm Luger.
Huh?

Maybe if you cherry pick rounds.
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Old March 6, 2021, 08:13 PM   #174
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You are missing the 800 lbs Gorilla in the room. Don't miss.

Master your gun, do not take low percentage shots.
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Old March 7, 2021, 12:13 AM   #175
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This thread is going downhill rapidly.
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