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Old March 2, 2021, 11:34 AM   #26
Nathan
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I especially look for new cartridges that can produce either,

1) the same velocity at a 50% increase in bullet weight
or
2) a 500 fps increase in velocity at the same bullet weight.
I can only think of one situation that meets your criteria! 30 M1 Carbine to 300 Norma

Honestly, I feel like interesting starts at:
1) same velocity, 10% weight increase
2) same weight, 100 fps increase

I probably wouldn’t own both, unless weight increase was 20% or velocity was 200fps.
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Old March 2, 2021, 05:31 PM   #27
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I probably wouldn’t own both, unless weight increase was 20% or velocity was 200fps.
ding ding bingo! especially if it meant investment in new set of dies, cases, powder, bullets etc that there is very little cross-over use for.
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Old March 3, 2021, 02:09 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Scorch
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Originally Posted by TOU
Now caliber that is truly new and improved...is the 22 TCM
22 TCM has been around for almost a decade. It's not new. Cute, yes. Impressive? No. Basically a 22 Spitfire reworked. Didn't work then because there were no rifles chambered for it. Same thing with the 22 TCM.
Yeah, Scorch, you're definitely correct that 22 TCM is not truly that new I guess as in it came out some 10 years ago. It really is new to most people though. I think I disagree on it not being impressive and that it is a 22 Spitfire/5.7 Johnson reworked.(1963); which is basically a .30 Carbine case necked down to take the Hornets .224 bullet. (FN's 5.7 is a closer but definitely a different case.) The Spitfire is a longer case than the 22 TCM though and was really only available in converted M1 Carbine or as conversion kits. Really pretty cool though.

Off topic but I have the semi-legitimized 19 Badger which is also 30 Carbine-based...which I love and is a great repeater. The 30 Carbine case is an excellent parent case for many applications...too bad Garin's couldn't make it stick with their multicaliber offerings.

The 22 TCM though, is essentially a .223 Rem, cut in half & and .224 40g JHP bullet that looks closer to what you see on the end of the 22 WMR. Some comparisons.

.22 Spitfire/5.7 Johnson
  • Case length 1.29 in (33 mm)
  • Overall length 1.65 in (42 mm)
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
  • 40 gr (3 g) 2,850 ft/s (870 m/s) 720 ft⋅lbf (980 J)
  • 50 gr (3 g) 2,700 ft/s (820 m/s) 810 ft⋅lbf (1,100 J)
22TCM
  • Case length 1.022 in (26.0 mm)
  • Overall length 1.265 in (32.1 mm)
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
  • 40 gr (3 g) Pointed flat nose 2,800 ft/s (850 m/s) 696 ft⋅lbf (944 J)
  • 40 gr (3 g) Pointed flat nose 2,070 ft/s (630 m/s) 381 ft⋅lbf (517 J)
  • Barrel length: 22.75" rifle (higher velocity) and 5.0" pistol (lower velocity)
That said, you are so right regarding the limited offerings. Retrofitted M1 Carbines for the Spitfire. TCM is...very limited to several Armscor Rock River pistol offerings and their rifle was an absolute disaster in many ways. Besides poor QC barrels, light strikes (a converted rimfire), awful triggers they had ridiculous super slow twist rate like the 22 Hornet & the Spitfire. The feed and magazines were kinda cool though. (I have destroyed 2 CZ 527 magazines trying to get mine to feed...with no joy and finally just went with a SS sled.) Very few are willing to do what I did...rebarrel/chamber a CZ 527 in a fast twist barrel. No one will build it until it is SAAMI. Much like the 20 Vartarg, which is another story.

Next, what's not to like on the TCM's performance? Over 2000fps out of a 5" high-capacity handgun and defeat Class III...few pistols can. (I haven't heard of any semi-auto Spitfires pistols.) In a rifle it is basically a hotrod Hornet with a stronger easier to reload case that is shorter. It is fantastic for a walkabout with a pocket full of ammo...much like a pocket full 22 LR & 22 WMR. With a fast twist barrel, it is a whole new cartridge that delivers devastating results under 200 yards with good enough accuracy for my needs. It has become one of my favorites for this application. Lastly, bullets are cheap ($6/100), unlike hotrods it sips powder which means the barrel stays cool shot after shot. Both rifle and pistol have nearly zero recoil. What's not to love?

Sorry so long and hopefully not too much of a derail to the original topic.
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Old March 3, 2021, 02:43 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Nathan
First, ammunition gets locked in by twist rate. For example if a round gets a 1:14 twist initially, everything develops that way....ammo, bullets, load data. If a 1:7 makes a new round, it is almost easier to modify the case than make another set of guns and ammo!
I so agree...old technology bullets and old technology thinking is STILL holding many existing rounds behind as far as twist rates. I am fan of faster twist rates so long as it stabilizes a bullet for a given distance and application. Some rounds just should not be shot at ridiculously long distances that many try. Know your application and build a rifle for the best performance possible for that round and application. Fast twist bullets, at the same velocity, results in greater devastation with equal bullet types.

Quote:
Worse is if a prehistoric military round like 6.5x55 gets new love. How do you make 60ksi ammo when there are millions of prehistoric rifles that are safe to like 48ksi.
VERY true!

I came across this quote elsewhere that seems appropriate here.

Quote:
Back in the day it seemed everything was getting necked down to .22 for some reason.
  • .32-20 became .218 Bee
  • .30-30 became .219 Zipper
  • .357 became .22 Jet
  • .222 became .221 Fireball (but that does have some merit if used in short barrels as a means to reduce the case capacity to improve performance)
  • today we have the .22 TCM, which is a .223 shrunk down to fit in 9mm 1911 magazines and does get some impressive velocity from a 5 inch barrel
Very few have really offered anything more than what was already available. .22 Hornet had been around since the 30s and could do a lot, but if you wanted the bullet heavier and be faster, the .222, .223, and 5.56 did that.
Sometimes it is about trying making a more efficient cartridge with the same performance in fps, energy or a taking advantage of projectiles that can handle a faster twist and accuracy AND...with less powder. If you can do the same thing with less powder...why wouldn't you? I.E. Heat is a function of mass, speed and powder...many times wasted powder. This also translates to saved money...especially these days. Heat also translates into barrel erosion as well as lost accuracy after a minimum number of shots. I like to maximize the number before a barrel overeats and accuracy is lost...especially if I don't need that power for distances I am not shooting 95% of the time.

Sometimes it is about a better functioning cartridge. I.E. feeding

Lastly, I agree that manufactures have no choice other than to change a shoulder angle or neck length here & there for many reasons. Ease of manufacture but more importantly for safety to avoid use in older rifles not up to snuff.
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Old March 3, 2021, 07:45 AM   #30
stagpanther
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The current factory loadings I am seeing are 165g(bc .620) and 175g(bc .617) at around 3100-3200fps.
Where did you see that?
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Old March 3, 2021, 10:37 AM   #31
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The American Rifleman numbers were much lower.
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Old March 3, 2021, 12:44 PM   #32
RaySendero
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Quote:
Nathan said:
Quote:
I especially look for new cartridges that can produce either,

1) the same velocity at a 50% increase in bullet weight
or
2) a 500 fps increase in velocity at the same bullet weight.
I can only think of one situation that meets your criteria! 30 M1 Carbine to 300 Norma
If that's all your thoughts could come up with, You need to recalibrate your mind!

The "lowly" 30-30 would probably go 500 fps faster that a 30-M1 even with a 50% increase in bullet weight!
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Old March 3, 2021, 04:08 PM   #33
Scorch
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1) same velocity, 10% weight increase
2) same weight, 100 fps increase
That's pretty close to what sells new guns. Think 30-06 to 300 Win Mag. That 10% velocity increase sold a LOT of rifles.

Actually what sells guns is marketing hype. "Flatter shooting, more energy down range". 30-06 and 7mm Rem Mag have almost exactly the same trajectory. 300 Win Mag is a little better. 300 Weatherby is even a bit better. But nobody would buy a rifle sold just on real numbers. The small incremental increases do add up, but all in all they're all pretty close until you start getting into medium bore magnums.
Quote:
The "lowly" 30-30 would probably go 500 fps faster that a 30-M1 even with a 50% increase in bullet weight!
30-30 170 gr bullet comes out about 2,100 fps out of a 20" barrel.
30 Carbine 110 gr comes out about 1,900 fps out of a 20" barrel.
That's about a 10% increase in velocity with a 50% heavier bullet.
And just for argument's sake, the 30-30 is not exactly "lowly", unless you also consider 308 Win "lowly" (150 gr at 2,500 fps out of a 20" barrel, not even 10% faster).
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Old March 3, 2021, 04:44 PM   #34
stagpanther
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Actually what sells guns is marketing hype.
Pretty much. And it's never a given your top-power load that approaches those numbers even shoots worth a hoot in your particular rifle. If this cartridge lives up to it's hype (doubtful with only 2 or 3 bullets available) I expect to see it show up at 1000 yd matches. If I'm proven wrong, well, I'll be happy to try it out.
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Old March 3, 2021, 05:21 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
Where did you see that?
Midway usa, data off the boxes. only 2 loads listed (neither in stock) a Browning and a Winchester.

https://www.midwayusa.com/ammunition...%2B8%2Bwestern
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Old March 6, 2021, 10:23 AM   #36
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If all I could have is one rifle right now it would have to be a 6.5 CM. I don't own one at the moment but that is because I am a big.260 Rem fan. Main reason I would choose the CM is the availability of commercial ammo as well as reloading components. I have no need for anything larger than 140 gn bullets

BTW I have had one 6.0 CM barrel and will never own another, they are throat burners. Mine was toast after 1000 rounds. I just put together a 6BR repeater based on a Stevens receiver. I love the 6BR round for accuracy, ease of load development, and barrel life. Thankfully some reliable magazine's and adapters are now available for it. I think of it as a .243 Win with better barrel life.
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Old March 6, 2021, 01:16 PM   #37
stagpanther
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My thoughts exactly! I'm glad they did too, instead of stuffing those bullets that need a faster twist rate into existing cartridges. Can you imagine all those PO shooters that would be keyholing targets with their .270 Win, WSM, and Weatherby? They did the right thing by making a new cartridge with new SAAMI specifications.
I spent some time thinking more about this new cartridge--even loaded up some 160 partitions into my 270 WSM and did some fiddling--and I'm coming around to the notion that the specs on the new cartridge probably are a better modification to the existing 270 WSM. Yes, I admit I may have been wrong. I think the 260 rem vs 6.5 creedmoor is a perfect analogy.

What really interests me is that Winchester itself is marketing both side-by-side. IMO, if the 6.8 W succeeds the 270 WSM would necessarily be condemned to obscurity. I don't think this town is big enough for the both of them.
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Old March 7, 2021, 09:05 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Shadow9mm View Post
from what I have been seeing, really long and heavy (for caliber) ones. The current factory loadings I am seeing are 165g(bc .620) and 175g(bc .617) at around 2850-2950fps.

To me it seems like they are trying to reformat the 30-06. Similar hunting bullet weights. Similar velocities. But with the bullet diameter being smaller they get a a much better bullet weight to BC ratio, which is a pretty big advantage at longer ranges.
... with a recoil that the average shooter can accommodate.

A well balanced, long range hunting cartridge.

A factory 165 gr. Nosler Partition at ~ 2900 fps - would probably put one in my freezer.




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Old March 7, 2021, 09:47 AM   #39
stagpanther
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... with a recoil that the average shooter can accommodate.
My model 70 270 WSM can hit almost 3000 fps with the 160 partition, but accuracy isn't that great and while felt recoil isn't tremendous the muzzle flip is pronounced without a good foreend hold.
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Old March 7, 2021, 10:29 AM   #40
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New & Improved...Ackley Improved if you reload.

If not, just whatever the new marketing hype is. There are a scant few cartridges that really are new and improved. Maybe 5 in the last 50 years. A lot of the changes in the last 15 years are merely changes to fit into an AR15 or short action bolt gun. The rest is really in powder, bullets and twist rates (which are actually not cartridge mandated).

I love to tinker and so I fall for these sometimes just to play. .300BO, .224V, .450BM and a few others...sold along with the dies.

Have .350L dies, will probably end up the same. Working on a .280AI, want, not need. Then I think I will go really old school and pick up a lever action in .45-70.

I can't tell you how many times I have been told I can't shoot .243Win to 1000 yards because it is an "old" cartridge. I have them twisted 1:7.5 up to 1:12 and there is not really anything the 8 "new and improved" 6mms can do that it can not. Blow it out to AI, and it passes most of them in velocity.
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Old March 9, 2021, 09:42 AM   #41
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I was in town on Sunday and the 6.8 Western was the majority of ammunition on the shelves. I didn't see a rifle, but then I wasn't really looking for a new rifle. At least if you buy a new rifle you can get some ammo to shoot.
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Old March 9, 2021, 11:24 AM   #42
stagpanther
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At least if you buy a new rifle you can getbsome ammo to shoot.
Something to be said for that these days.
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Old March 9, 2021, 10:53 PM   #43
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This is similar to the 6.5 PRC as well. I saw a YouTube review of the PRC and the host stated the reason that the cartridge is 6.5mm and not 7mm is because you can't get 3200 fps from a 140 grain short action 7mm. I commented that perhaps they should contact Winchester because the 7mm WSM 140gr is rated at 3225fps. The 7mm WSM really deserves to be more popular.

Fact is, the vast majority of hunters kill the vast majority of their game inside 200 yards. At those distances BC is meaningless and SD is more important. Use a premium bullet with a decent SD in a cartridge properly suited to your quarry. All these new long range cartridges serve a purpose I guess, but it's mostly to pad gun & ammo company wallets.

After 30 years of PA hunting I've switched to a Ruger American Predator .22-250 for the 1:10 twist and I'm using Federal 60gr Nosler Partitions. Virtually all my kills are inside 100 yards, if not 75. So why do I need my .308, .270 or .35 Rem? (Secretly I love the .35, it's a 760 pump.) I just got the RAP .22-250 so I'm excited to see it in action this year. I plan on getting a Boyds stock to replace the plastic. I only wish it was a Go Wild edition because I really like the Burnt Bronze cerakote.
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