Scope set-up on AR for hd & target shooting

[marine6680]

A scope is not faster than a dot...

Not up close.


For HD... Get a red dot.

The Aimpoint Pro is a great optic for around $400.

If you are on a tighter budget, the Primary Arms Advanced red dot with knob illumination control, is under $200 with their brand AR height mount.


As far as a good light, there are a few.

I use a Streamlight Protac rail mount. I have Magpul handguards on my HD rifle and use the Magpul cantilevered light mount to mount the light to the rifle. The light and mount cost me $120 total online.


An AR with the right ammo choice is ideal for HD, being both more effective than a pistol, and penetrating less walls if you miss.

Or if wall penetration is not a concern, you can get even more effective ammo if you choose wisely.

You do get more blast and noise though.

[KY_blkout]

Once you get a red dot, watch some good instructors on YouTube and practice or find a good instructor to teach you on quick acquisition with it and you will be amazed how fast you can pick up a target with a dot.

[spacemanspiff]

I'm not sure I ever understand the idea of a rifle for "home" defense.

Mix of preference and other circumstances. Some choose a shotgun. Some choose a pistol. Some people have fewer choices if they are concerned about overpenetration with sheetrock between residential units. Some don't have to worry about that if they do not share sheetrock with their neighbors.

if I do grab the AR for defending my domicile, theres a good chance I will forego aiming and just worry about placing the muzzle over my target. Not going for submoa groups at that point.

[Kirosha]

Originally Posted by riffraff

I'm not sure I ever understand the idea of a rifle for "home" defense.

Originally Posted by spacemanspiff

Mix of preference and other circumstances. Some choose a shotgun. Some choose a pistol. Some people have fewer choices if they are concerned about overpenetration with sheetrock between residential units. Some don't have to worry about that if they do not share sheetrock with their neighbors.

if I do grab the AR for defending my domicile, theres a good chance I will forego aiming and just worry about placing the muzzle over my target. Not going for submoa groups at that point.

Add in the fact that home includes your property. Farm animals from predators, expensive equipment from thieves, other residences (MIL suite) on the property...some homes need a rifle over anything else.

[MrBot]

You really never know what'll be the best tool 4 the job when you don't know what the job'll take. Maybe 1 day a 12 gauge with buck would work just fine, on another the AR. If all hel_ breaks lose in a phone booth something much longer than a snubby could be a hindrance. Had uncle Sam not stuck his nose in it back in the '30s no doubt the Tommie gun would be the choice of many--or something along the lines of an Uzi. I'm no hd/sd wizard, but I'm just thinking something like the AR in 16" carbine equipped with a light & Red Dot & its ability to spit lead @ a rapid rate could make for a darned good companion should bad people infest one's home uninvited & doing so with the intent to do its dwellers harm.

[Kirosha]

I do believe that a shotgun fills most roles quite well. Up close and mid range work can be handled by buck and slug. You only start seeing problems at long range and the worry about shot spread/penetration indoors.

My one issue is the idea that shot spread is so much a problem at closer range. Bird and buck are still 90% on at 20-25 yards. Your choke may differ.

[Django11]

Not sure if this has been covered yet as I skimmed through some of the posts; if you decide on a red dot with HD in mind, get one with easy on/off/setting adjustment. I have owned 2 red dot sights; 1st took waaay too long to operate. The 2nd was an aimpoint pro- very quick and easy to operate. There's several good ones out there so find whatever works best for you

[MrBot]

Very good pt, Django11. Right @ the x I've managed to get myself n2 a real pickle: I originally was planning on getting--as the title reads--1 gun for both hd & target shooting. But I was soon educated that those are 2 separate animals. I agree. So with that in mind & my fear that the closer we get to the election & the greater the possibility gun prices may rise, I've turned what little x I have to shopping for that--you guessed it--longer range target/varmint/paper puncher or whatever you wanna call it. I figure since I know I'm gonna want a longer range AR I'd better get it now rather than risk higher prices later. ..gonna run a light on the forestock with irons for the x being on the Aero OEM model I bought from Brownells over the weekend. After we have some fun with that set-up I'll look @ Red Dots with probably a flip-up 3x magnifier that I think'll be a lot of fun while @ the same x I don't figure should get in the way in a hd situation. But, wow, what a ton of great replies to my op. All these ideas are gonna help me pick out the perfect Red Dot. But really I figure running without the Red Dot for awhile shouldn't be a great sin. I'll still have the light on the AR. And who knows maybe I'll decide I like that set-up just fine. After all, @ ranges inside my dwelling that could be all I need. I'll play around with the Aero I bought for a bit then re-assess.

[marine6680]

You can buy a complete lower pretty cheap right now.

Get an extra lower, and then you can find an upper for it later. Or if you are up for it... Build the upper to exactly how you want it. So you can have a HD rifle now and take a little time for the long range rifle.


As far as easy to use red dots...

Models like the Aimpoint Pro, Trijicon MRO, Primary Arms Advanced RD... Have always on battery life measured in years.

Turn it on and leave it on, can't get simpler than that. You just swap the battery out once a year just to be on the safe side.

[MrBot]

I think you're right, Kirosha. I've 3 levels to my dwelling counting the basement & have 2 Mossberg 500s which has been my only shotgun model I've owned since age 14. I know it well. I'll have 1 long gun on each level once I receive the Aero carbine. That Liz Wheeler did a talk praising the use of the AR a few months ago for what I'm gonna call personal defense inside one's dwelling. I never wanted an AR prior to that, but the girl got me thinking to the pt I had to have 1. ..plan on looking into lights to mount on the 2 Mossies as well as 1 for the Aero. I figure whatever I can get to in an emergency is gonna give me serious in-home firepower. Ted Nugent did a show recently in which he stated he liked the sg better than the AR @ close range.

[MrBot]

Thx for the heads up marine6680. I went ahead after several good reviews & opinions expressed & ordered the Aero OEM a wk ago. It comes without a rear sight. It's also missing the handguard & buttstock. ..plan on making it my in-home self defense bedside partner. But I've also decided to buy-leaning toward Aero--a separate gun for longer range target shooting. And Aero has been sending me a lot of adds.

[marine6680]

Aero are good rifles.


An AR has several advantages over a shotgun when used for HD. Many instructors and pros are pushing the AR for defense for a reason.

The round, when selected properly is effective. Expanding bullets in the 69gr range (give or take a few gr) is the most effective. But if there is concern about a miss over penetrating walls, 55-60gr varmint rounds (like Hornady vmax) are effective stoppers, while demonstrating a tendency to break apart rapidly when they go through a wall. They are still dangerous, but the danger diminishes quickly as the bullet breaks into small pieces. (They will still punch through a wall and be dangerous to anyone very close to the wall though, but those farther away, or on the other side of a second wall will be in less danger)

Many of us have access to 30rd magazines. Even if you assume a double tap or even three shots per bad guy, you can handle more than a shotgun, and reloads are faster.

Recoil and control are easier to manage. They can be more compact as well.

Blast is no worse than a shotgun.


Once you nail down what furniture you are putting on the rifle, then you can know more for planning your layout.

I recommend the Streamlight protac rail mount as a good reasonably priced light for the rifle.

Magpul makes a cantilever pic rail for mounting lights. If you end up with an mlok compatible handguard, it's a low cost and effective mount that pushed the light farther forward for better light coverage.

[Kirosha]

Shotgun, 12ga, 7+1, #00 holds 8-.33 pellets. So if you know what you are doing, that is 8 dead with no reloads. AR, 5.56, 30+1, triple tap, 10 dead with no reloads.

Reality, first shot fired, 90% of people aren't sticking around to get shot. The 10% left over, 99% of the time will be a single dude. I've argued for the AR earlier but the advantages you've listed for the AR are less advantages and more differences to a shotgun, IMHO

[HWS]

To me, home defense means 20 feet. How big are your rooms and hallway? Are you up to a loaded AR under your bed for this purpose? For sure you need a light since you don't want to be shooting relatives who come in and didn't want to wake you up. You may need tritium irons. But for defending your home from the inside or even your immediate yard, up to 50 yards or so, why the hell do you need an optic of any sort other than irons?

You could detach the optic when the rifle comes inside. And you could detach the light when you go outside for more long distance shooting.

[KY_blkout]

Originally Posted by HWS

To me, home defense means 20 feet. How big are your rooms and hallway? Are you up to a loaded AR under your bed for this purpose? For sure you need a light since you don't want to be shooting relatives who come in and didn't want to wake you up. You may need tritium irons. But for defending your home from the inside or even your immediate yard, up to 50 yards or so, why the hell do you need an optic of any sort other than irons?

You could detach the optic when the rifle comes inside. And you could detach the light when you go outside for more long distance shooting.

A red dot in the hands of someone even semi trained will be light years faster than lining up your irons at home defense range. If you have a red dot and BUIS on an AR next time you are at the range (if allowed) pull up your AR from the single point sling position from 50 feet or less and see which way you can get on target faster while still maintaining situational awareness.

[Kirosha]

Originally Posted by HWS

To me, home defense means 20 feet. How big are your rooms and hallway? Are you up to a loaded AR under your bed for this purpose? For sure you need a light since you don't want to be shooting relatives who come in and didn't want to wake you up. You may need tritium irons. But for defending your home from the inside or even your immediate yard, up to 50 yards or so, why the hell do you need an optic of any sort other than irons?

You could detach the optic when the rifle comes inside. And you could detach the light when you go outside for more long distance shooting.

I almost bought a house on 40 acres with a cabin by the pond on the opposite side of the property from the main house. It had a separate driveway and was at a lower elevation than the two story main house. Imagine a situation and apply the logic.

I have family friends who own a hobby farm on 13 acres. They have a barn more than 50 yards from the house. They have animals, equipment and they have a right to protect both as they see fit.

I have a friend with an elderly mother three houses down. She calls up frantically about an intruder trying to break down her backdoor...

There are plenty of situations that might require a basic magnification device on the rifle. I really like flip up magnifications made for red dots. My house is all hallway. I'm perfect for a shotgun, no matter what you want to do, if you want to leave the front foyer or rear door, you pass my line of fire standing at my bedroom door. I can shoot from exterior wall to opposite exterior wall.

[marine6680]

Most states do not allow deadly force to protect property... Only to protect life.

So no... You can't simply shoot someone stealing your property.

You can confront them, and at that point, the situation may be such that they become a threat to your person, then deadly force is justified.


Shooting across someone else's property is not a good idea either. So no shooting three houses down.


Defense gets murky at extended ranges, even if you do not have a duty to flee. Target ID can come into question.


99.9% of the time, defense means close range. You don't compromise your short range abilities for a 0.1% chance you might need to shoot farther. Especially when a red dot works just fine at 100yds and farther.


It is a logical fallacy that many fall into... I got to plan for this really really unlikely thing, at the expense of something more likely.


Its like people who know a guy, who knows a guy who died because of their motorcycle helmet or the car seat belt, so they don't use them... Ignoring that any scenario that a helmet or seat belt causes harm is much less likely than those things saving you.

[Kirosha]

Originally Posted by marine6680

Most states do not allow deadly force to protect property...

Originally Posted by Kirosha

Add in the fact that home includes your property. Farm animals from predators, expensive equipment from thieves, other residences (MIL suite) on the property...some homes need a rifle over anything else.

My state has limitations, certainly, but it does allow for deadly force in arson or defense of person in relation to property. The distance might be questionable but then you have to make a choice about being tried by 12 or someone carried by 6.

It is a logical fallacy that many fall into... I got to plan for this really really unlikely thing, at the expense of something more likely.

What is unlikely for you doesn't mean it is unlikely for another. I'm pretty sure I don't have to plan for earthquakes dropping everything around me. I don't need to worry about volcanoes. But hurricanes and tornadoes are a worry. Power outages for up to a week at a time. Looting and home invasions during those times too. The fact you don't need to worry about long distance shooting is great, but some of us do.

[marine6680]

If they are not coming after you, then you are not worried about the 6... But you will be worried about the 12 later.

Your premis did not follow there.


Picking off preditors going after livestock is a different task than home defense.


Sure there are those who may need to worry about longer distances... But it isn't the norm. Not for defense.

The OP never mentioned being in a situation that would call for it either, from my recollection.


You are still looking at the minority vs the majority.

Even if you have a lot of property, the chances of being actively attacked, and therefore justified, at a distance greater than 50yds is remote.

Generally you want to focus on close range with a HD rifle. Where your primary concern is break ins and home invasions.

If you need a ranch rifle, then set up another rifle for that use.


I'm not saying needing a bit of range isn't needed sometimes, but focus on priorities... And a red dot is perfectly fine for 100yds and even more.

[Kirosha]

Clearly you aren't bothering to read my posts. I'm recommending a red dot as well.

My state definitely allows for deadly force in defense of another. I'd rather worry about the twelve to prevent the six.

The OP hasn't spoken about the distance at all outside HD and the fact he owns a two story house with basement. However when you are talking about needing a rifle for home defense, I brought up the possible need to longer ranged shooting in certain situations that are relevant to me and possibly others. The concern being a "shotgun duh" isn't always the right tool for the job. It is for me, it is for most but if it is for the majority we should ignore this thread entirely, right?

I'm looking at a legitimate concern for some people. Are they somehow unimportant because the majority of people won't find themselves in that situation? Offhand shooting isn't a majority concern, yet it is and should be trained for those sometimes needed situations.

Your priorities and primary concerns aren't mine. My priorities and concerns aren't yours.

[marine6680]

Maybe I'm not understanding something you said then, as I did read.


What I am trying to say myself...

Is that putting remote concerns over more prevalent concerns is a bad way to go.


Even if you have a lot of property, your primary concern for HD is inside the home.

I am of the opinion that you can not get a do it all rifle. That a HD rifle should be focused on that use, and that focus is close range inside the home.

If you are someone who has a variety of needs, you unfortunately need a variety of rifles to cover those needs.

As in... Don't compromised your primary HD needs of close range in the house work, by throwing on a LPV scope. You have compromised your more likely need, in order to gain at an unlikely need.

If you want to cover the interior needs and the exterior needs, then you need a second rifle... Or learn to use a red dot at reasonable ranges.

For me, I am not going to risk hitting an innocent by shooting their attacker from 100+ yards. Too risky, even with some level of magnification. I'm talking an active attack, not a hostage/human shield situation. And unless you have the skill and equipment, the latter situation is just as risky to take a shot in.


So I am not saying such situations don't exist, that someone might need to shoot at a longer range in a defensive situation, only that I don't think you can cover both types of needs with a single rifle. And that the longer range needs are the lowest possibility needs, so they are not the primary concern for a single HD rifle.


The closest to a general purpose rifle I have come up with, and one that I feel is practical and works in the context of real world combat/firefights... Is a 4x fixed power with an offset red dot. (Reasons being for a mix of toughness and weight, as LPV scopes weigh more generally, and standard 2-7x and similar scopes of similar ACOG weight are a bit bulkier and not as tough as the ACOG)

And I feel it is slightly compromised at close range, as an offset red dot isn't as good as a primary red dot. But it is better than a LPV at close range in the real world.

[Kirosha]

Originally Posted by marine6680

Maybe I'm not understanding something you said then, as I did read.


What I am trying to say myself...

Is that putting remote concerns over more prevalent concerns is a bad way to go.

Agreed

Even if you have a lot of property, your primary concern for HD is inside the home.

Agreed

I am of the opinion that you can not get a do it all rifle. That a HD rifle should be focused on that use, and that focus is close range inside the home.

If you are someone who has a variety of needs, you unfortunately need a variety of rifles to cover those needs.

As in... Don't compromised your primary HD needs of close range in the house work, by throwing on a LPV scope. You have compromised your more likely need, in order to gain at an unlikely need.

Agreed, but OP has two shotguns in the house and is intrigued at the rifle for home defense. I'd argue that he has short to medium distance covered with the shotguns, and with the red dot you can reasonably shoot out to 200 yards as you state below. You might be less willing to shoot past 100 yards, but with practice, 200 yards is doable.

If you want to cover the interior needs and the exterior needs, then you need a second rifle... Or learn to use a red dot at reasonable ranges.

For me, I am not going to risk hitting an innocent by shooting their attacker from 100+ yards. Too risky, even with some level of magnification. I'm talking an active attack, not a hostage/human shield situation. And unless you have the skill and equipment, the latter situation is just as risky to take a shot in.

Agreed, I'm not willing to shoot under hostage/shield conditions unless O'm really close. But someone breaking down a door 100 yards away? I'm willing to risk it to save my family from danger.


So I am not saying such situations don't exist, that someone might need to shoot at a longer range in a defensive situation, only that I don't think you can cover both types of needs with a single rifle. And that the longer range needs are the lowest possibility needs, so they are not the primary concern for a single HD rifle.

In this context, agreed. If you have nothing but a HD rifle and so on...

The closest to a general purpose rifle I have come up with, and one that I feel is practical and works in the context of real world combat/firefights... Is a 4x fixed power with an offset red dot. (Reasons being for a mix of toughness and weight, as LPV scopes weigh more generally, and standard 2-7x and similar scopes of similar ACOG weight are a bit bulkier and not as tough as the ACOG)

And I feel it is slightly compromised at close range, as an offset red dot isn't as good as a primary red dot. But it is better than a LPV at close range in the real world.

My HD situation doesn't call for a rifle outside of fringe what if's. Even then, it would be the back up to the backup to the shotgun. My thoughts run more towards a flip up magnification for a primary red dot.

[SRH78]

Personally, I went with a 1-4 with illuminated reticle. On 1x, it is very fast up close and unlike a red dot, it isn't completely dependent on batteries. Being able to turn it up to 4x also makes the rifle much more versatile. It also has a light mounted up front. There not be 1 setup perfect for everything but this setup allows fast shots at in home distance, the ability to reach across my property to handle predators, and still has enough precision for sub moa target shooting at the range.

[MrBot]

..been a while. Work, work & more work. ..ended up with a Sig Romeo 5 & Magpul Pro LR BUIS (good to 600 meters. ..thought they might be fun) for the bedside companion (yeah, I know, 600 meters is gonna be kinda a long shot while still in bed. lol). ..gotta get a light. And a Leupold Mark AR MOD 1 1.5-4 X 20mm that has an Illuminated Reticle for a 2nd build. It is complimented by Diamondhead Flip-out 45* Offset Sites. ..still need rings or a mount but am holding off 'til I figure out how high the scope needs to be to clear the rear sight. The Diamondheads store directly atop the Pic rail & are spring loaded flipping out then up when deployed. Diamondhead says they sit .51" above the Pic rail but I'm not sure if they'll need much more room than that when deployed to clear the scope bottom. All components still in original boxes but have plans to disassemble, clean, lube & re-assemble what needs to be. The BCGs will be 1st to do. ..been watching vids from guys like Jerry Miculek (the guy is amazing) on how to field strip, etc the AR. He says they like to run wet. ..will have to re-watch that vid as I don't remember just how much lube he recommended. I'll spray out the triggers 3x in one day then oil the following day. ..read where that's a cheap trigger job. ..have done it on a few other firearms & have concluded it may help smooth out the trigger a bit. ..has never hurt. ..scared the heck outta me the 1st time I tried it: ..sprayed a Sig P239 even though the trigger was pretty good by my standard right outta the box. ..just have this thing about cleaning the heck outta 'bout everything. For 3 days after the cleaning/oiling the trigger felt gritty as all get out. On day 4 it turned smooth as glass. ..longest 3 days of my life thinking I'd somehow ruined the trigger. ..will have 16" mid-length barrels in 5.56 black nitride & .223 Wylde ss. ..thought it might be kinda fun comparing/contrasting the 2 chambers. Plus, all this was on sale so I figured what-the-heck on the .223 W. ..no doubt a lot more accurate than I'll ever be but wow! do I like the finish of the ss. ..matte, not shiny at all but I like it. ..black nitride & nickel-boron BCGs interchangeable between either. ..black & nickelene CHs interchangeable as well. ..Magpul stocks--chubbier ones. ..hope I chose well there. ..Aero Key-mod handguards--a heavier version for the scoped carbine & a lighter version for the RD carbine. ..went with FDE for the bedside & all black for the scoped. ..oughta be lookers I'd think. Now just if they work.

[pete2]

Never understand a rifle for "home defense", longest shot in my humble home would be 40 feet. If I was gonna use a long gun it would be a shotgun. As it is I use a handgun.