I just "have" to go there! .270/.308/30-06

[lovethosesooners]

What basis is it that so many claim the .308 is superior to both the .270 and 30-06?

I don't have anything against the cartridge and understand it's a great round, but the ballistics that I keep looking at don't bear this out.

For example, 150 grn Fusion in all 3 calibers:

Veloc Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd
0.27 2850 2655 2468 2289 2117 1953
0.308 2820 2600 2391 2191 2001 1821
30-06 2900 2674 2459 2254 2059 1875
Energy Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd
0.27 2706 2348 2029 1745 1493 1270
0.308 2649 2252 1904 1599 1334 1105
30-06 2802 2382 2015 1693 1413 1171
Wind Drift 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd
0.27 .7" 2.8" 6.5" 11.9" 19.4"
0.308 .8" 3.2" 7.6" 14.1" 23.0"
30-06 .8" 3.1" 7.4" 13.7" 22.3"
Trajectory 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd
0.27 1.7" 0 <7.4"> <21.5"> <43.4">
0.308 1.8" 0 <7.9"> <23.1"> <47.0">
30-06 1.7" 0 <7.4"> <21.8"> <44.3">

Seems to me that the most accurate way to make such a comparison is to use the same weight for each?

The .270 comes out the "winner" in most of these head to head comparisons.

I don't have an axe to grind, I'm just always wondering when I read these threads what I am missing?

[dead bird]

I agree that 270 is a great caliber, however you are limited as far as bullet weight.
Sure the 270 out performs with 150 gr bullets. Jump to 168's or 175's and the 270 is out of contest. So i think anything beyond 400 yards is where 30 cal will out perform the 270.
Sure, if you compare equal bullet weight, the 270 has the advantage, but if I am hunting or target shooting beyond 400 yards, my choice would be 30 cal, with a bullet hevier than 150gr.

[nate45]

Originally Posted by lovethosesooners

What basis is it that so many claim the .308 is superior to both the .270 and 30-06?

Where do you hear, or read 'so many' claiming the .308 is ballistically superior to the .270 and .30-06?

Originally Posted by lovethosesooners

I don't have an axe to grind, I'm just always wondering when I read these threads what I am missing?

I think what I'm missing is having read the threads you are referring to. Why don't you provide some links? I myself, have never seen a mass denial of the produced velocities and subsequent resulting trajectories of the rounds you list. The .30-06 case has an increased capacity, which results in the slight differences.

A few individuals make all sorts of false and/or uninformed claims about all sorts of subjects.

[jager.30-06]

imho people are way to hung up on caliber, 9mm vs .40 vs.45, .270 vs. .30's vs.7mm's, dead is dead put the dang bullet where it needs to go as long as you can do that then dead is dead ( i'm not talkin .22lr here just common sense calibers) on 2 legged applications apply more rounds as needed. know your weapon , know your personal limitations, practice then when you think ur good, back up farther and practice some more. oh crap i just tripped and fell of my soapbox lol.

i will say this however some people prefer a short action rifle i like the ones i own just fine. shoot what you like and get on with life.

[Noreaster]

I believe, out of the three calibers mentioned, that the 30'06 is more versatile. If your only hunting deer then either one is fine. For me I've gone to the 308 for hunting in Maine. The 308 does everything I need it to and it's easier on the shoulder for my kids.

[old roper]

Here is some interesting .277 bullets

http://www.matrixballistics.com/.277...e-bullets.html

[phil mcwilliam]

Pick either of the 3 & learn to shoot it well. The "superior" difference between .270, .308 & 30-06 will be determined by the person pulling the trigger in most cases. People spend too much time worrying about the differences in such similar performing cartridges, where shot placement is what matters.
No matter what the cartridge you shoot, you still have to know trajectory tables for distance shooting. To me it is irrelevant that there is a few inches difference in holdover at 500 yards between the .270, .308 & 30-06 when you have to aim about 4 foot high for either of these calibers at that distance.

[Bart B.]

lovethosesooners comments:

I don't have anything against the cartridge and understand it's a great round, but the ballistics that I keep looking at don't bear this out.

The comparison you make is hard to see 'cause the way your data ended up in this thread is a disaster. Next time, make a table that prints on paper, scan it, then post that image so we can make sense of your data in a reasonable amount of time.

Here's some stuff you may not have considered, or even knew about......

Barrel life of a .270 is half that of a .308.

The .308 is, by far, the most accurate cartridge.

Bullets 200 grains and heavier can easily be used in the 30 caliber ones; great for very big, angry animals up close and impersonal. Not so with the 27 caliber. If you had used one of these to make your comparison, the .270 would not even be in contention 'cause there ain't any bullets that heavy for it.

Regarding those claims that "the .308 is superior to both the .270 and 30-06," it's only in the accuracy and barrel life that I've heard or seen people state. But for medium and small game taken up to 400 to 500 yards, the .270 is easily a better cartridge.

But game's killed with bullets, not cartridges. I suppose one could stab a deer with a very long cartridge if it had a sharp pointed bullet and could be caught so the hunter could do that. Four bullets of the same caliber, make and type entering four identical animals at the same direction at the same place and speed, but coming from four different size cartridge cases, will perform identical. Period. The only difference is the range from the hunter to the animal.

[Art Eatman]

For hunting elk or any smaller game animal, there is no practical difference among the three for power or accuracy. Or trajectory, insofar as ranges to around 300 yards--which is around 95% or more of all shooting at Bambi.

(Really, anything much over 200 yards has to do with the shooter's skill, not the cartridge's accuracy or Oomph.)

[warbirdlover]

.270 .130 gr is the perfect caliber/bullet combination for most medium sized big game. .308 is only so-so at best. I speak from having used/owned both. It's popular because it was a military round.

[lovethosesooners]

Thanks for the good replies fellas! (and for the tip on how to better insert the tables-didn't quite turn out the way it looked on my spread sheet! lol)

[jmr40]

Seems to me that the most accurate way to make such a comparison is to use the same weight for each?

This is actually not a very accurate way to compare them. Comparing similar velocities with similar sectional densities and ballistic coefficients is.

A 150 gr 270 bullet is long and aerodynamic. By comparison a 150 gr 30-06 bullet is short and stubby. If they both leave the muzzle of a rifle at the same speed the short stubby bullet will start to slow down much faster and at longer ranges will be moving much slower. When they impact game a longer bullet will tend to hold together better and penetrate deeper into the animal being shot.

When comparing bullets of different diameters you have to go up in bullet weight with the larger caliber to get fair comparison. A 150 gr 270 bullet compares more closely to a 180 gr bullet in a 30-06

In a nutshell all 3 are very similar. The 270 will always shoot flatter, has less recoil and still has the power to kill anthing in NA. Although it is about the minimum for the really big animals. The 30-06 is right behind the 270 when it comes to trajectory, but offers the abiltiy to shoot much heavier bullets if you want a little more punch for the really big stuff.

If you look only at the pure performance of the 308, it is behind the other 2, but has some advantages. It is very close to the 30-06 as long as bullets weighing under 200 gr are used. It is softer recoiling than the 30-06, comes in smaller, lighter guns and tends to be accurate and easy to reload for. If most folks realistically look at what they use a gun for it is still more gun than they will ever need.

[kraigwy]

Holy Smoke Batman

Old Roper

Here is some interesting .277 bullets

http://www.matrixballistics.com/.277...e-bullets.html

Caliber Inches: .277
Weight, grains: 175.0
Core Density, lb/ci-in: 0.4097
Core Weight, grains: 126.3
Jacket Density, lb/ci-in: 0.32
Jacket weight, lb/ci-in: 48.7
Ogive Radius, calibers: 13.0
Meplat Diameter, inches: 0.06
BC (static): 0.7828

Have you noticed the 175 grn 277 bullets, Running the numbers this bullet has a remaining velocity 400 fps faster at 1000 yards then the 308 SMK assuming they both start out at 2600 FPS.

200 fps faster then the 190 SMKs at 2600 fps when the 190s leave at 2900 fps.

Not sure the 175/277 bullets would work in my Model 70 Featherweight, but this deffently bears looking into. I think I see my next rifle build.

Anyone know the length of these Matrix 277 bullets?

[TX Hunter]

I think they are all three good cartridges, but I would seperate them in my opinion the 270 would be the best for long range hunting of Deer Sized Game, in open country where you would take longer range shots. The 30 06 would be good in that country too, but a better choice for larger game, due to its ability to shoot heavier bullets. The .308 is a nice compromise for carbine leingth rifles, still has plenty of range, but would fall short to the 30 06, in terms of longer ranges with heavier bullets, and I dont think it would be as effective at extended ranges on Deer Sized game as the flat shooting 270 Winchester. All three cartridges, are excelent and I figure they will still be available when many of the new Short magnums, and other rounds are obsolete. JMO

[taylorce1]

Kraigwy,

I have seen these bullets talked about on other forums and I think you have to have a 1:9 twist or faster to use them. Kirby Allen makes his .270 Allen Magnum and uses bullets like these to run in it.

The current big names in the 270 family of wildcats. Left to Right: 270 Winchester, 270 Weatherby case, 270 Allen Magnum, 300 RUM (parent case of 270 A.M). The 270 A.M. dramatically exceeds anything remotely possible with the 270 Weatherby Magnum.

Parent Case: 7mm or 300 Remington Ultra Magnum (fireformed brass available with rifle orders)

Preferred Bullets: 130 and 140 grain Accubond, 130, 140 and 150 grain Ballistic Tips, 169.5 gr ULD RBBT Wildcat.

Recommended Powders: Ramshot Magnum, H-US896, WC-860 and WC-872

Recommended Primers: Federal 215 Large Rifle Magnum

Velocity Performance:
Bullet Weight Muzzle Velocity(30" barrel length)
130 gr. 3750 fps
140 gr. 3650 fps
150 gr. 3550 fps
169.5 gr. (custom) 3450 fps

Ballistic Performance:
Bullet Weight: 130 gr. Accubond @ 3750 fps, 250 yard zero, 10 mph

Yardage velocity wind drift Energy TOF(sec)
400 2897fps 7.8" 2423 ft/lbs 0.364
600 2529 18.7" 1845 0.586
800 2189 35.4" 1383 0.841
1000 1878 59.3" 1018 1.137

Bullet Weight: 169.5 gr. ULD RBBT @ 3450 fps, 250 yard zero,10mph

Yardage velocity wind drift energy TOF
400 2963 fps 4.9" 3313 ft/lb 0.375
600 2739 11.3" 2831 0.586
800 2526 20.9" 2409 0.814
1000 2323 33.8" 2037 1.061
1200 2130 50.7" 1713 1.331

Recommended Uses: The 270 Allen Magnum was designed specifically for the use of hunting medium big game in the 200 to 600 pound class. The 270 A.M. is also the first APS wildcat that offered legit +1000 yard effective range on medium big game animals as it sustains over 1 ton of kenetic energy at 1000 yards. It also retains up to 2300 fps at this range which ensures full bullet expansion and energy transfer. The 270 A.M. is a true all around performer. Its just as at home in a lightweight sporter rifle for packing all day in rough country and hunting out to 700 yards, or as a medium weight rifle for dedicated long range precision big game hunting. While the barrel life of the 270 Allen Magnum is dramatically longer then its smaller Allen Magnum siblings, its still not recommended to use this wildcat as a high volume varmint chambering.

Effective Range: With commerical bullets, the 270 A.M. is best used at ranges from zero to 800 yards on medium size game. For elk hunting it is recommended that range be limited to no more then 600 yards with conventional commerical bullets. Using the 169.5 gr ULD RBBT from Wildcat Bullets, the 270 Allen Magnum offers legit +1200 yard range on medium to heavy deer species and 1/2 mile range on elk size targets.

Pros: Very easy to form brass for, formed brass available through APS with rifle orders, Extremely potent ballistic and terminal performance. Decent barrel life for performance level. Fits in Rem 700 receivers easily and its custom clones.

Cons: Commerical bullets really limit the 270 A.M.s performance potential. Custom 169.5 gr ULD RBBT not easily obtained from Wildcat Bullets but it is still listed as a production item. Relatively limited choice in reloading powders.

http://apsrifles.com/Allen_Magnum_Wildcats.html

[old roper]

kraigwy, What you might want to do is get on http://www.longrangehunting.com/ and do a search on the "270 Matrix bullet".


some good information from those guys using 270/270WSM and 270Wby with the Matrix etc.

As to Wildcat bullets for the 270 Allen mag they sold that company few years ago and new owners have been trying to make bullets here is their site
http://www.wildcatbullets.com/

Kirby been using other bullets and those old post that was posted here isn't up to date.

[uncyboo]

What basis is it that so many claim the .308 is superior to both the .270 and 30-06?

I don't have an axe to grind, I'm just always wondering when I read these threads what I am missing?

It's called fanboi-ism......

Now the 270 fanboi is fist-pumping saying "you go boy."

The 308 fanboi will jump in and tell you how much more "inherently accurate" the 308 is.

The 30-06 guys are just sitting back relaxing and smiling smirkily because they know they have ALL the bases covered.

[Jack O'Conner]

.308 primary advantages:

- works very well in carbine length barrel and short action
- moderate recoil
- very accurate

30-06 primary advantage:

- easily shoots 220 grain bullets or heavier
- long history of lethality wherever animals are hunted

270 primary advantages:

- less recoil than 30-06
- slightly flatter trajectory up to 300 yards; beyond this distance, most hunters should not pull the trigger at all

I very much doubt that one cartridge is actually BETTER for the so-called average hunter. But the hunter who insists upon 220 grain bullets, 30-06 is the clear choice. I've had good luck handloading Speer's 200 grain bullet for my .308 carbine. But 220 grain bullet fired from my .308 yeilds mediocre accurasy. Whether 220 grain or 200 grain bullets are best is another topic for another time.

Jack

[BIG P]

I like them ALL!!!!
Chest beating is just that Chest beating
Mine will run faster,jump higher,Hit harder.Most of us know thats crap.

[samsmix]

There is nothing, N O T H I N G, that you cannot shoot with one, that you should be shooting with the others.

Well, maybe the '06 over the others on Grizzly, but otherwise, 6 of one vs. Half a dozen of the other.

[603Country]

The 308 is just Uncle Sam's best attempt to put the 30-06 in a small package. That's so your basic USMC grunt (me, 40 years ago) can pack more ammo per pound of weight. They had to give up some of the performance to get the smaller package. If it comes down to hunting with the 30-06 or the 308 (aka 30-06 light), go with the 30-06. As for the 30-06 versus the 270, that's been argued about for at least half a century, with no clear winner. Personally, I'm a 270 fan. For me, the 308 comes in third place. And it's no more inherently accurate than the 300 Savage and probably less inherently accurate than the 260 Remington or the 6.5X55.

[Bart B.]

The 308 fanboi will jump in and tell you how much more "inherently accurate" the 308 is.

The 30-06 guys are just sitting back relaxing and smiling smirkily because they know they have ALL the bases covered.

Why do you think high power competition scores jumped up and the same barrels shot smaller test groups when the .308 was first used in 1963? Three years later, the NRA had to make the scoring rings smaller; too many unbreakable ties were shot with the .308.

The most accurate .30-06 match rifles then would shoot about 5 inches at 600 yards properly tested. .308's were shooting test groups about half that size. Same bullets, primers, powder, stock, action and barrel make/taper/bore/groove/twist dimensions; just the chambers and cases were different.

[jimbob86]

Sure the 270 out performs with 150 gr bullets. Jump to 168's or 175's and the 270 is out of contest. So i think anything beyond 400 yards is where 30 cal will out perform the 270.

Between 300 and 500 is where the .270WIN trajectory outshines the .308 and -06: For flat trajectory, you need efficient bullets AND high velocity. You can get those with .277 (.284 and .264) bore diameters, without going to a bullet so heavy you need a Magnum sized case packing 70-90 grains of powder..... the 168's and 175's can't be launched as fast as the .277 150's, without exceeding safe pressure limits.....

.270 WIN allows a flatter trajectory and less drift than the other two, between 300 and 500 .....

That is unimportant to most people, because they won't take shots at game that far. Target shooters don't need a flat trajectory, as they have known distance targets, and wind flags/windmeters .....

Beanfield hunters, OTH .....

[uncyboo]

Why do you think high power competition scores jumped up and the same barrels shot smaller test groups when the .308 was first used in 1963? Three years later, the NRA had to make the scoring rings smaller; too many unbreakable ties were shot with the .308.

The most accurate .30-06 match rifles then would shoot about 5 inches at 600 yards properly tested. .308's were shooting test groups about half that size. Same bullets, primers, powder, stock, action and barrel make/taper/bore/groove/twist dimensions; just the chambers and cases were different.

Although I posted facetiously, thanks for proving one of my points....

[Art Eatman]

Trouble is, Bart B, unless you're into competition matches, the accuracy is not enough better to care about. Irrelevant.

Jimbob86, if you know the trajectory of your cartridge/bullet setup, the difference between the .270, the .308 and the '06 isn't enough to matter one iota.