help with a ID of some rifles

Plywood · August 11, 2009, 02:49 PM

Hi all,
I have some rifles from my late grandpa. They went through a house fire a few years ago and im having trouble identifing them. I think they may be Mausers but im not sure, they are definately German. They both have two triggers and are 8mm. I was hoping to get them restored, but im not sure if they can be. everyting seems to bet here except for the wood. what do you guys think? Heres some pics:

oneounceload · August 11, 2009, 03:26 PM

They should have a maker's name and a caliber stamped somewhere on them, possibly even a serial number. Looks like they have a set trigger - very neat.....

Plywood · August 11, 2009, 03:38 PM

thanks for the reply whats a set trigger?

I fould a few markings on them, But I dont know who made them.

one says: fluss-stahl krupp-essen Serial#'s and 8mm marking along with a pentagon with a N under it. it also has a stamp" stm6 18gr

and the other has: lunerurg suljmeisten, 8mm and the same pentagon with a N under it.

Falcon5NZ · August 11, 2009, 08:01 PM

Set triggers are designed so if you want a really light trigger (read "touch and it goes off") you can pull the front trigger and it "sets" the rear trigger. You can still fire the gun with only the rear trigger, it's just heavier. It's made for if you're out hunting, and a animal appears, you can take a quick snap shot, but if the animal is furthur away, can set the trigger to give you a lighter pull and thus less movement of the rifle.

On to the markings. Stahl means steel and, from what I've found online "Fluss-Stahl" means fluid steel barrels (forged as instead of Damascus/twist barrels). Krupp-Essen is a famous steel maker.
8mm would make me think it's chambered in 7.92×57 (8×57 or 8mm Mauser)
I can't say anything for the pentagon. Proof mark of some kind?

That's all I know sorry mate. Maybe if Mod were to move this to Harley Nolden's Institute for Firearms Research you might have better luck (@ Mods: Hint Hint)

Nick

oneounceload · August 11, 2009, 08:27 PM

http://www.germanguns.com/technical.html

From that:

Quote:

Rifles marked with only an indication of powder charge and bullet type as shown below date to 1912 or before:

2,67 g GBP
St m G

These marks show 2,67 grams of Gewehr Blättchen Pulver (military flake powder) and Stahl-mantel Geschoss (steel jacketed bullet). Other possible types are "K m G" for Kupfer-mantel Geschoss (copper jacket) and "Bl G" for Blei Geschoss (plain lead bullet).

After 1912 marks were changed to show just bullet type and bullet weight as in:
St m G
12 g

usually accompanied with a crown-over-N or the word Nitro, specifying smokeless powder.

Maybe that pentagon is a crown?

Bigfatts · August 11, 2009, 08:43 PM

Both rifles are Mausers. Look like they might be early commercial actions, could also be post war surplus. If you decide you don't need them, you just let me know.

Scorch · August 11, 2009, 09:41 PM

Both appear to be pre-WW2 military Mauser 98 actions. As far as restoring them, if they were heated during the fire (this can be verified by the presence of "scale" on the metal parts) they will have to be heat treated. They do not look like they have been overheated, so they are probably OK.

Quote:

Set triggers are designed so if you want a really light trigger (read "touch and it goes off") you can pull the front trigger and it "sets" the rear trigger.

You "set" a set trigger by pulling the rear trigger, and fire it with the front trigger. Or you can fire it without "setting" the trigger by pulling the front trigger.

Falcon5NZ · August 11, 2009, 09:44 PM

Thanks for correcting me Scorch. I'm blaming a lack of sleep.

Plywood · August 11, 2009, 10:08 PM

wow! thanks for the info guys!
The metal is in good shape, except for that chunk of aluminum on the one. lol
I would really like to keep and restore these. Anyone know a good mauser gunsmith?

PetahW · August 12, 2009, 07:06 AM

Bigfatts is correct, in that they both are commercial Mausers.

More than that, they are Mauser commercial sporting rifles - a collectible class unto itself - and not military Mausers, as witness the flared bolt knob, half-octagon barrels, swivel-latching floorplate, and sights.

.

Jim Watson · August 12, 2009, 08:53 AM

If the stocks were burnt clear off, that is not a good sign. If they were damaged and just discarded, you have a better chance.

There was a gunsmith's shop here that kind of specialized in salvaging guns after house fires, and they brought back some pretty rough ones.
A rule of thumb is to check the springs. If the mainspring, magazine spring, and set trigger springs retain their tension, then the action is probably usable. If the springs are annealed and limp or weak, then the receiver is, too. Redoing heat treatment is possible but not simple. Stocks don't exactly grow on trees, either. Proper restoration won't be cheap.

RJay · August 12, 2009, 10:41 AM

Ah, but good wood stocks do grow on trees

Jim Watson · August 12, 2009, 01:42 PM

Well, yes, sort of, but cutting off the part that doesn't look like a stock is what runs the price up.

mapsjanhere · August 13, 2009, 08:58 AM

The bottom rifle has the thumb cut out and the stripper slot in the action, wouldn't that point to a sporterized military action instead of a commercial action?

Jim Watson · August 13, 2009, 09:12 AM

I thought about that, but it is not necessarily so. My 1939 Stoegers (reprint) shows a Mauser sporter complete with lever floorplate latch and double set triggers having the thumb notch for clip loading. They also cataloged DWM ammunition in various sporting calibers packed in clips.

Of course it does not prove they are NOT sporterized military rifles. There were a lot left over from WW I and it is not too hard for a good smith to mash a bolt knob out into the ugly old style Mauser butterknife.

Plywood · August 13, 2009, 10:16 AM

Thanks for the info and help guys, I really appreciate it. As you can see I really dont know much about this stuff. I called a local gunsmith (the only one in the area that I could find) and he didnt even want to look at them, he pretty much told me they were junk.

PetahW · August 13, 2009, 11:01 AM

[The bottom rifle has the thumb cut out and the stripper slot in the action, wouldn't that point to a sporterized military action instead of a commercial action? ]

The Commercial Mauser action w/o the thumbcut, as we know it today, didn't come into being until the much later FN production.

I've never seen a gennie, pre-WWI, Mauser Sporting Rifle made w/o the thumbcut.

.

mapsjanhere · August 13, 2009, 03:34 PM

Thanks, that was always a big point of confusion for me, and I didn't realize they actually sold non-military ammunition on strips.

Scorch · August 13, 2009, 04:06 PM

Quote:

I've never seen a gennie, pre-WWI, Mauser Sporting Rifle made w/o the thumbcut.

I have, but you have to remember that back then, as now, people wanted to load fast, and the military configuration was the best available. The thing that makes me think they are military refurbs is no crest on the receiver or roll mark on the side of the action, but I have seen many military receivers that way too.

August 11, 2009, 08:01 PM	#4
Falcon5NZ Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: Somewhere North of the Roaring 40's...Just Posts: 275	Set triggers are designed so if you want a really light trigger (read "touch and it goes off") you can pull the front trigger and it "sets" the rear trigger. You can still fire the gun with only the rear trigger, it's just heavier. It's made for if you're out hunting, and a animal appears, you can take a quick snap shot, but if the animal is furthur away, can set the trigger to give you a lighter pull and thus less movement of the rifle. On to the markings. Stahl means steel and, from what I've found online "Fluss-Stahl" means fluid steel barrels (forged as instead of Damascus/twist barrels). Krupp-Essen is a famous steel maker. 8mm would make me think it's chambered in 7.92×57 (8×57 or 8mm Mauser) I can't say anything for the pentagon. Proof mark of some kind? That's all I know sorry mate. Maybe if Mod were to move this to Harley Nolden's Institute for Firearms Research you might have better luck (@ Mods: Hint Hint) Nick __________________ It is New Zealand's role to send out its bright young men and women to help run the rest of the world. And they go, not hating the country of their birth, but loving it. From this loving base they make their mark on the world. Pro-1080 Poison and proud of it!!

August 11, 2009, 09:44 PM	#8
Falcon5NZ Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: Somewhere North of the Roaring 40's...Just Posts: 275	Thanks for correcting me Scorch. I'm blaming a lack of sleep. __________________ It is New Zealand's role to send out its bright young men and women to help run the rest of the world. And they go, not hating the country of their birth, but loving it. From this loving base they make their mark on the world. Pro-1080 Poison and proud of it!!

August 11, 2009, 03:26 PM	#2
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	They should have a maker's name and a caliber stamped somewhere on them, possibly even a serial number. Looks like they have a set trigger - very neat.....

August 11, 2009, 03:38 PM	#3
Plywood Junior Member Join Date: August 11, 2009 Posts: 5	thanks for the reply whats a set trigger? I fould a few markings on them, But I dont know who made them. one says: fluss-stahl krupp-essen Serial#'s and 8mm marking along with a pentagon with a N under it. it also has a stamp" stm6 18gr and the other has: lunerurg suljmeisten, 8mm and the same pentagon with a N under it.

August 11, 2009, 08:43 PM	#6
Bigfatts Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2005 Location: Lutz Posts: 1,528	Both rifles are Mausers. Look like they might be early commercial actions, could also be post war surplus. If you decide you don't need them, you just let me know.

August 11, 2009, 10:08 PM	#9
Plywood Junior Member Join Date: August 11, 2009 Posts: 5	wow! thanks for the info guys! The metal is in good shape, except for that chunk of aluminum on the one. lol I would really like to keep and restore these. Anyone know a good mauser gunsmith?

August 12, 2009, 07:06 AM	#10
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	Bigfatts is correct, in that they both are commercial Mausers. More than that, they are Mauser commercial sporting rifles - a collectible class unto itself - and not military Mausers, as witness the flared bolt knob, half-octagon barrels, swivel-latching floorplate, and sights. .

August 12, 2009, 08:53 AM	#11
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,537	If the stocks were burnt clear off, that is not a good sign. If they were damaged and just discarded, you have a better chance. There was a gunsmith's shop here that kind of specialized in salvaging guns after house fires, and they brought back some pretty rough ones. A rule of thumb is to check the springs. If the mainspring, magazine spring, and set trigger springs retain their tension, then the action is probably usable. If the springs are annealed and limp or weak, then the receiver is, too. Redoing heat treatment is possible but not simple. Stocks don't exactly grow on trees, either. Proper restoration won't be cheap.

August 12, 2009, 10:41 AM	#12
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	Ah, but good wood stocks do grow on trees

August 12, 2009, 01:42 PM	#13
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,537	Well, yes, sort of, but cutting off the part that doesn't look like a stock is what runs the price up.

August 13, 2009, 08:58 AM	#14
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	The bottom rifle has the thumb cut out and the stripper slot in the action, wouldn't that point to a sporterized military action instead of a commercial action?

August 13, 2009, 09:12 AM	#15
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,537	I thought about that, but it is not necessarily so. My 1939 Stoegers (reprint) shows a Mauser sporter complete with lever floorplate latch and double set triggers having the thumb notch for clip loading. They also cataloged DWM ammunition in various sporting calibers packed in clips. Of course it does not prove they are NOT sporterized military rifles. There were a lot left over from WW I and it is not too hard for a good smith to mash a bolt knob out into the ugly old style Mauser butterknife.

August 13, 2009, 10:16 AM	#16
Plywood Junior Member Join Date: August 11, 2009 Posts: 5	Thanks for the info and help guys, I really appreciate it. As you can see I really dont know much about this stuff. I called a local gunsmith (the only one in the area that I could find) and he didnt even want to look at them, he pretty much told me they were junk.

August 13, 2009, 11:01 AM	#17
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	[The bottom rifle has the thumb cut out and the stripper slot in the action, wouldn't that point to a sporterized military action instead of a commercial action? ] The Commercial Mauser action w/o the thumbcut, as we know it today, didn't come into being until the much later FN production. I've never seen a gennie, pre-WWI, Mauser Sporting Rifle made w/o the thumbcut. .

August 13, 2009, 03:34 PM	#18
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Thanks, that was always a big point of confusion for me, and I didn't realize they actually sold non-military ammunition on strips.