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Old September 22, 2018, 11:54 PM   #1
John E.B. Rawton
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Loading Black Powder Pistol Cartridges

I posted this question on other forums and am looking for information from all sources.
I’ll start with a bit about myself. You can call me John E.B Rawton. I consider myself a very casual cowboy shooter and never race the clock. Usually my down fall is adrenaline causing me to ready, fire, aim mostly.
I prefer to shoot Josey Wales in gunfighter using uberti made walkers converted to .45 cartridge and two uberti .38s. (1851 and 1860 RM) I often switch between the .38 and .45 for rifle targets depending on the stage. I have only used Trailboss but now I am considering something new.
I currently load a 200g rnfp .454 colt and mainly a 125g tc .358 38 spl.
I am being pulled to the other side and am curious about loading these cartridges with BP.
Recommendations on powder charge, bullet weight and assembly would be great. I’ve read a lot of internet info and realize personal preference has something to do with it. I’d like to get off on the right foot.
Thanks.
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Old September 23, 2018, 12:12 AM   #2
Hawg
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A full load in a .45 Colt will be about 37 grains of powder. You don't want an air space. If you want a lighter load use a filler like cornmeal to take up the air space.
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Old September 23, 2018, 06:41 AM   #3
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For pistol cartridges it's not much different than normal reloading,
with these rules:

- (as Hawg said) Completely full case to base+ of bullet, vibrated down to max natural compaction*
- I suggest 3F powder
- Soft bullet allot 30:1 or even plain lead
- Soft bullet lube, not regular commercial lube unless specifically-made for BP**

* vibrate the powder to lowest point to determine what "full case to bullet base" really means. Seat bullet firmly to powder, but do not use the bullet to compress the powder. You will deform the bullet.

** BP lubes are 2:1 crisco/beewax, DGL, SPG, etc.

Expect more performance, recoil, and muzzleflash than you'd guess
Clean up w/ hot water and a drop or two of dishwashing soap. Dry/oil thoroughly,
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Old September 23, 2018, 07:12 AM   #4
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A brass drop tube helps settle the powder. I have gone to Alliant Black MZ for most of my cartridge loads. Fowling is different than true black, and you don't have to use blackpowder lube. That said, don't shy away from true black because of the cleanup. The potential for corrosion comes from the fact that the fowling is hygroscopic, not corrosive itself. Hot water is your solvent.

Good luck. It's addictive.
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Old September 23, 2018, 08:14 AM   #5
John E.B. Rawton
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I’ve watched a few videos of people using standard cowboy bullets and removing the smokeless lube then applying a bp lube. Is there a need to do that with substitutes?
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Old September 23, 2018, 08:32 AM   #6
mehavey
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"Some" people have used regular ALOX-based (but soft) lube w/ Pyrodex.
But most all the informed cognoscenti recommend BP-specific/organically-based* very soft lube.

* Vegetable oils/animal fats
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Old September 23, 2018, 10:31 AM   #7
44 Dave
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Your bullets may not carry enough lube for the length of a rifle barrel. I load a reduced bp charge topped off with Cream O Wheat then add a little bp lube before seating the bullet. Had thought about buying Big Lube Bullets, but being "cheep" this allows me to use my "smokeless" cast bullets.
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Old September 23, 2018, 11:03 AM   #8
John E.B. Rawton
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At the moment I plan to keep the black to my revolvers which are 7.5”, 8.0” and 9.0”. I was also reading about Alliant Black MZ which claims that one uses no lube what so ever. I do not know if I can load .38 with it.
All this black powder this and substitute that gets to be a head spinner.
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Old September 23, 2018, 11:45 AM   #9
mehavey
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1. Stick w/ real BP. It's simpler than you think.
2. Stick w/ soft/organic lubes
3. You're not going to even come close to running out BP/soft lubes in pistol length barrels* using any normal grooved/lubed/Keith cast design like this:



*(Not even rifle barrels either )
.
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Old September 23, 2018, 12:07 PM   #10
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Buy a copy of The Lyman BP Handbook and Reloading Guide. Has data and a how-to for BP cartridges. $23.98US direct from Lyman. Pretty decent read too.
The most important part of loading with BP is that it's done in grains by volume, not mass like Trail Boss is loaded.
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Old September 23, 2018, 01:05 PM   #11
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E.B.

You need to go here -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forum.php

and to narrow it down more . . . . this forum on that site

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/foru...wder-Cartridge

a great site with lots of good info . . . .
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Old September 23, 2018, 06:50 PM   #12
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Yeah, you want to ditch the smokeless lube. I use a Lee 200 grain RNFP in my 44-40's with homemade beeswax/olive oil lube. It's fine in revolvers but they do run a little dry in my 20 inch carbine.
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Old September 23, 2018, 07:48 PM   #13
John E.B. Rawton
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I had made my decision as I was pushing the lawn mower and listening to a Star Wars galaxy story. The way I do things are all out and if I’m going to shoot BP I can’t see me using subs. Will I need a finer powder for .38 or will fffg work fine in .45 colt and .38 special
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Old September 23, 2018, 08:09 PM   #14
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When I started BP cartridges, there were no substitutes. I don't mind the cleaning at all and have never used a sub for BP.

I have used crisco, lard, etc., and now used mostly Bore Butter since it comes in a easy to use tube and stores well in my box.

I also use pure lead bullets and balls. Veggie wads are good for a filler and many online sellers have them. For a little extra, you can get lubed veggie wads.
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Old September 23, 2018, 09:14 PM   #15
44 Dave
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Wads are ok in a.45, but in a necked case like .44-40 or .38-40 they are not.
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Old September 23, 2018, 09:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
I have used crisco, lard, etc., and now used mostly Bore Butter since it comes in a easy to use tube and stores well in my box.
I'd worry about Crisco and Bore Butter leaching into the powder when it gets hot.
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Old September 23, 2018, 10:33 PM   #17
Jim Watson
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All I have ever loaded with black were BPCR .38-55 and .40-65.
Only lube I have used is SPG.
Mike Venturino has some good books.
https://www.amazon.com/Books-Mike-Ve...ke%20Venturino
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Old September 23, 2018, 10:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
I'd worry about Crisco and Bore Butter leaching into the powder when it gets hot.
I have been using them since 1969 and have never had that problem.

Not saying that it can't, just saying that I never had a problem with it.

I load all straight wall cases (rifle and handgun); have never loaded any tapered cartridges with BP.
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Old September 24, 2018, 12:38 AM   #19
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Quote:
I have been using them since 1969 and have never had that problem.

Not saying that it can't, just saying that I never had a problem with it.

I load all straight wall cases (rifle and handgun); have never loaded any tapered cartridges with BP.
Cool! I used Bore Butter on some .58 minies once and that was a mistake since it was about 90 degrees when I decided to use them. I started with bp in 69 but didn't get into bp cartridges til about 10 years ago.
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Old September 24, 2018, 11:42 AM   #20
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My first ventures with BP had me shooting a 58 cal Hawken replica. Then I got my first handgun in 45 cal. and a few years after, cap & ball. I guess I would call myself a traditionalist as I don't think much of the 209 type firearms.

I use a wad over the powder (always have), So I think that has helped me avoid the lube in the powder scenario.
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Old September 24, 2018, 01:10 PM   #21
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Yeah that would help. I'm definitely a traditionalist. I don't like Rugers, I don't like short barrels if they didn't originally come that way. I don't like mods. On second thought I guess I'm more of a purist.
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Old September 26, 2018, 07:50 AM   #22
Jakeway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John E.B. Rawton View Post
I’ve watched a few videos of people using standard cowboy bullets and removing the smokeless lube then applying a bp lube. Is there a need to do that with substitutes?
I loaded 10 test rounds with Aliant Black MZ with no lube, and 10 with home made (60/40 mix lard and bees wax). After the ten shots with no lube, I cleaned the bore and had scales of hardened fouling, with clearly seen rifling marks, come out on my patch. I'm now going to use the lube mix with a bullet similar to the one pictured in a post above.

I also tried the process of using Goex black powder, covered by a disc punched from a playing card, then a lubricated felt wad, then another card, and finally the bullet. They shot well, but I don't think they were worth the extra effort. If my bullets had only very narrow lube rings, then I'd use the felt wads.

BTW, the gun is an Uberti Cattleman in 45 Colt, using a .452 RNFP bullet.
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Old September 27, 2018, 07:16 AM   #23
John E.B. Rawton
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I saw on the website for alliant black mz states to not use any lube. I have decided not to use substitutes just yet and am going to start out with the real stuff. I am going to make up some lube here at home and make up a few rounds for my .38s and .45s
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Old September 28, 2018, 08:06 PM   #24
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Depending on the cases and powder grade, 34-37 gr is probably it.

I recently started loading substitute for BP cartridges after a terrible experience 30+ years ago. Back then, if you wanted a substitute it was either Pyrodex or Triple 7, neither of which works well for cartridges, so I loaded BP for rifle cartridges then. Fast forward 35 years. After doing some research and talking to other loaders, American Pioneer came out as the best option for loading BPCR with BP substitute. It comes in several f grades (fffg, ffg, fg, and cannon grades), but the Super and American Gold are different and I was told to avoid them. I bought ffg grade, loaded it just like BP, and fired it in my 40-70. It shot fine, cleaned up like nothing, and didn't have the mess and smell. It uses BP lube or smokeless lube, and seems to be accurate enough. If nothing else, give it a try.
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Old October 8, 2018, 09:54 AM   #25
John E.B. Rawton
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Well I got all the revolvers prepped for bp and loaded up 10 .38 spl and 10 .45 colt, full case of 18g and 35g dupont ffg. The bullets are commercial cast which I had to melt smokeless lube off and pan lubed with the home brew beeswax and crisco. They shot nice and seemed to carry enough lube. The test will be this weekend at the cowboy shoot. I’ll be shooting 30 rounds through each of my four revolvers. I suspect everything to be smooth.
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