Shotguns with Pistol Grips (Video)

1911rocks · May 31, 2009, 09:32 PM

A few months ago in one of the posts had a considerable amount of discussion regarding installing pistol grips on shotgun for home defense. As I recall there were several people adamant about the virtues of a pistol grip on short barrel shotguns. This video proves an interesting, albeit painful point about the fine points of shotguns with pistol grips. http://shock.military.com/Shock/vide...=191649&page=2

hogdogs · May 31, 2009, 09:49 PM

OH YEAH!!!! I and another member have passed this video on in several threads in the last 6 or so months... "Ya' recording?"... PRICELESS!!!!
Brent

Ruger4570 · May 31, 2009, 09:54 PM

You know, we will STILL have those thar swear by them as being the perfect gun for HD. I just got to laugh at the expurt Mall Ninjas we get in here. Never fired a shot in anger or defense, yet know all there is to know. To the point of saying those that have actual experience don't know what they are talking about. I just love it.

colostomyclown · May 31, 2009, 10:18 PM

It proves he was holding it wrong. It doesn't prove anything else...although pgo guns are definitely less effective in 9/10 circumstances as opposed to a full stock. They have their merits, even if it's just a novelty. But it definitely isn't anything to rely 100 pct on. I keep a pgo wingmaster for hd because of the size of my house. Almost any scenario I have will be contact shooting so it really doesn't matter. Plus I live alone. Bigger house and more people I'd opt for the full stock any day of the week. I ALSO own full stock guns and prefer them for the most part.

Maser · May 31, 2009, 10:25 PM

I didn't watch the video, but I'm guessing it's the video that has the idiot getting hit in the teeth trying to aim the pistol grip shotgun.

A pistol grip shotgun is just like any other gun. You NEED practice to be able to use it effectively either on the range or in an HD situation. Pistol grips are far more easy to manipulate, but of course they can't be shouldered. I can easily shot a pistol grip 12 gauge from the hip and hit ANYTHING I'm pointing it at. Remember, you DON'T aim a shotgun like you would a rifle or handgun, you point it. Unless of course you're shooting slugs.

hogdogs · May 31, 2009, 11:20 PM

To c-Clown and maser, First don't take this as an absolute assault on your opinion... I once had only a PGO on my 20 gauge 500 Mossberg. But I assure ya'll that I found absolutely no benefit to the reduced length short of a truck sleeper or a yacht with super narrow hallways. I invite anyone to my home to train with me. Typical 3-2 split plan ranch home. Show me a benefit anywhere other than the attic on my property with a pgo and you get your choice of my guns as a prize... I won't require you put up your pgo gun but rest assured I am sure of these guns as defensive weapons and the standard stock equipped gun has full mobility yet defensive tactics lean in my favor as I have a double ended club, I can hip shoot as well as a PGO but can shoulder mine and do forward recon from a rock solid mounted position... I can then fire or forward assault with the gun as a club. I also have a highly reduced risk of my gun being jerked from my grip... Trust me on this if you haven't trained this in... you need to... Let me get that muzzle... I ain't a big man but it don't take much for me to "OWN" your weapon... I am not highly trained, just real determined...
Brent

TxGun · May 31, 2009, 11:50 PM

Some can handle pgo shotguns at typical defensive distances, some can't. I'm guessing the video is of some guy who can't. Either way, it's cool. Go with what works for you.

Kmar40 · June 1, 2009, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Unless of course you're shooting slugs.

Or unless you are at home defense ranges where the pattern will only be an inch or two. I guess it doesn't matter if you have never patterned a shotgun and don't know any better.

VA9mm · June 1, 2009, 10:46 AM

I think a pgo would be good if you lived in a box.

Dave McC · June 1, 2009, 01:18 PM

A couple cogent points.

First, the video reveals nothing about the usefulness of PGO shotguns.

Bad technique is bad technique.

However, back in the days when I HAD to qualify with a folder 870 shot from the hip, it took work to make it to the 80% minimum needed to keep my instructor's certification.

At the same time, qualifying with a standard stocked 870, same COF, time and ammo was a cakewalk with typical scores running 95-100%.

IOW, kiddies, a very proficient shotgunner became 15-20% less effective using a PGO. And that's under way less stress than in a life and death crisis.

Since there's no real advantage to a PGO shotgun, why are you so adamant about using an inferior tool when the stakes do not get any higher?

Could it be you PGO fans base your choices not on real world experience and training but on movieland fantasies and macho chestbeating?

Sorry, guys, but until you folks come up with some evidence of real world experience and high round counts, I'll be treating you like I do any other gang of BS carvers and poseurs.

And that's not very good at all.....

Housezealot · June 1, 2009, 01:27 PM

I can't imagine anyone having actually fired a PGO shotgun would think it was of any real advantage, I was amazed the first time I fired PGO that it would be anyones choice unless they were trying to conceal it on their person (and that seems like you would be up to a shaddy deed). I have a mossberg 500 with an M4 style stock and that seems to be pefectly manuverable for me.
Just my opinion.

amd6547 · June 1, 2009, 02:21 PM

If you don't like them, just don't use them. It is just that simple.

TxGun · June 1, 2009, 02:44 PM

I have about a dozen shotguns at this moment in time. None of them are pgo. However, I have used pgo shotguns extensively since I have the luxury of my own range and hunting opportunities at the family ranch. I have literally hundreds of rounds through them at both targets and game (varmints). I can easily hit center mass on silhouette targets virtually every shot at 10 yards. Is a pgo shotgun as controlable or versatile as a full-stocked gun? Of course not! Has anyone said they are? Didn't think so, and neither have I (re-read the 1st two sentences above.) Can pgo shotguns be used effectively at typical HD/SD ranges? Of course they can! This is a ridiculous argument and I guess I'm as guilty of indulging in it as anyone. As the man said, if you don't like them, or don't have a use for them, don't use them. That should be understandable to even the most anti-pgo poster. But to imply that no one could possibly be proficient with one, or that there aren't people who know exactly what they are, drawbacks and all, and still know how to use them effectively, is monumentally ignorant. BTW, my brother shot and killed a 200 lb. hog with a pgo shotun, 000 Buck, maybe a month ago, at about 40 ft. Why? It's what he had in the truck as he was out looking for a sick calf, and hogs are vermin down here in S. Texas.

hogdogs · June 1, 2009, 02:50 PM

Amd, what the regulars on tfl's shotgun section tire of is that folks actually opine the "merits" of the PGO and hint around or blatantly claim them to be superior to a regular stock set up. Kind of like claiming a garden tractor is superior to real farm tractor for plowin' the back forty.

Sure there are times where a pgo is a hoot to shoot... strictly just for fun, out in the back yard just blastin off from the hip... sure.
Brent

amd6547 · June 1, 2009, 03:03 PM

I have yet to see anyone claim the PG shotguns are superior in every case to a stock equipped shotgun. Yet, people like you continue to claim they are useless as SD weapons, which couldn't be farther from the truth.

Jonathan12 · June 1, 2009, 03:09 PM

My PGO HD shotgun "Mjöllnir" has a laser sight on it...which to me sort of counters the inability to aim down the barrel (I put it on purely for function, as it doesn't look good at all. No 'mall ninja' stuff here).

I also have a full speedfeed stock I can put on it if I'm so inclined. That makes it too long to easily handle in my house though.

-Jonathan

hogdogs · June 1, 2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Yet, people like you continue to claim they are useless as SD weapons

Never once said useless... Highly limited and in a very diminished capacity though

I too have a pgo (not currently in use) grip. I like the fact that the shoulder luggage strap allows me to comfortably tote my shot gun in the woods when I have a large full backpack and a hard pullin' bulldog on a leash. And it could be brought up quickly on a bunny for a scooby snack...
Brent

Naterstein · June 1, 2009, 04:42 PM

Probably the only PGO I would consider.

Nemsis · June 1, 2009, 07:34 PM

I tried one on my 870 had no problems hitting center mass out to 20yds but I put my knox stock back on

kno3mike · June 2, 2009, 02:54 AM

"Let me get that muzzle... I ain't a big man but it don't take much for me to "OWN" your weapon... I am not highly trained, just real determined..."

with all due respect....I wouldn't recommend that with a loaded 12ga.....

hogdogs · June 2, 2009, 03:05 AM

It training practice I would never grab a loaded gun nor even participate with loaded weapons...

Brent

Dave McC · June 2, 2009, 03:56 AM

It's not a case of "If you don't like them".....

I take the time and trouble to mod three shotgun BBs because real people in the real world can get hurt by bad info or BS posted as fact.

Noblesse Oblige..

Sure, I can get hits with a PGO.

I can get better, FASTER hits with a standard stock fired from the shoulder.

So can you.

Test this yourself.

Time any COF with a PGO. Try it again with the same ammo, conditions,etc, but use the same shotgun equipped with a standard stock that fits you.

Compare times and scores.

And consider these....

In more than ten years, not one PGO fan has posted a video showing them working a PGO shotgun as fast as even an old arthritic shotgunner like me cna do with real world equipment.

NO major shooting instructor like Farnam, Ayoob or Awerback has a PGO segment in a shotgun course.

No major shotgun sport has PGO shotguns turning up in the hands of the winners. Or even the also rans. Not IPSC, IDPA, CAS,FITASC, Trap, Skeet or SC.

Finally, tell me you had fun with your PGO range toy blasting tin cans and I may believe you.

Tell me you can shoot it just as well as a regular shotgun and I may just call you a liar to your face.

Why?

Because I know better....

Housezealot · June 2, 2009, 08:20 AM

Quote:

My PGO HD shotgun "Mjöllnir" has a laser sight on it...which to me sort of counters the inability to aim down the barrel (I put it on purely for function, as it doesn't look good at all. No 'mall ninja' stuff here).

now that seems like it might have some merit. I saw a laser the other day that replaces the mag tube cap.
not a bad idea

hogdogs · June 2, 2009, 08:38 AM

The laser may help...
I personally will have absolutely no battery powered devices on my HD gun. So many reasons for this decision...
1)Batteries can fail.
2)Electronics can fail.
3)In the time I may be allotted to get into action I may not have time to deploy the laser beam.
4)No light emitting from my position.
Me and Murphy are well acquainted but we are not friends.
For this reason I would choose a single shot NEF over any semi auto for my HD gun, To me survival is self reliance, personal accountability and responsibility cause me to choose devices with reduced risk of failure...
YMMV as this is just personal opinion on HD.
Brent

May 31, 2009, 09:32 PM	#1
1911rocks Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2006 Posts: 424	Shotguns with Pistol Grips (Video) A few months ago in one of the posts had a considerable amount of discussion regarding installing pistol grips on shotgun for home defense. As I recall there were several people adamant about the virtues of a pistol grip on short barrel shotguns. This video proves an interesting, albeit painful point about the fine points of shotguns with pistol grips. http://shock.military.com/Shock/vide...=191649&page=2

June 1, 2009, 10:46 AM	#9
VA9mm Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2007 Location: N. VA Posts: 254	I think a pgo would be good if you lived in a box. __________________ “The key is to hit them hard, hit them fast, and hit them repeatedly. The one shot stop is a unit of measurement not a tactical philosophy.” Evan Marshall

June 1, 2009, 01:27 PM	#11
Housezealot Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 606	I can't imagine anyone having actually fired a PGO shotgun would think it was of any real advantage, I was amazed the first time I fired PGO that it would be anyones choice unless they were trying to conceal it on their person (and that seems like you would be up to a shaddy deed). I have a mossberg 500 with an M4 style stock and that seems to be pefectly manuverable for me. Just my opinion. __________________ We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.

June 1, 2009, 02:21 PM	#12
amd6547 Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 2,313	If you don't like them, just don't use them. It is just that simple. __________________ The past is gone...the future may never happen. Be Here Now.

June 1, 2009, 02:44 PM	#13
TxGun Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Family ranch - Central TX. Posts: 467	I have about a dozen shotguns at this moment in time. None of them are pgo. However, I have used pgo shotguns extensively since I have the luxury of my own range and hunting opportunities at the family ranch. I have literally hundreds of rounds through them at both targets and game (varmints). I can easily hit center mass on silhouette targets virtually every shot at 10 yards. Is a pgo shotgun as controlable or versatile as a full-stocked gun? Of course not! Has anyone said they are? Didn't think so, and neither have I (re-read the 1st two sentences above.) Can pgo shotguns be used effectively at typical HD/SD ranges? Of course they can! This is a ridiculous argument and I guess I'm as guilty of indulging in it as anyone. As the man said, if you don't like them, or don't have a use for them, don't use them. That should be understandable to even the most anti-pgo poster. But to imply that no one could possibly be proficient with one, or that there aren't people who know exactly what they are, drawbacks and all, and still know how to use them effectively, is monumentally ignorant. BTW, my brother shot and killed a 200 lb. hog with a pgo shotun, 000 Buck, maybe a month ago, at about 40 ft. Why? It's what he had in the truck as he was out looking for a sick calf, and hogs are vermin down here in S. Texas. Last edited by TxGun; June 1, 2009 at 03:03 PM.

May 31, 2009, 09:49 PM	#2
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	OH YEAH!!!! I and another member have passed this video on in several threads in the last 6 or so months... "Ya' recording?"... PRICELESS!!!! Brent

May 31, 2009, 09:54 PM	#3
Ruger4570 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 2,136	You know, we will STILL have those thar swear by them as being the perfect gun for HD. I just got to laugh at the expurt Mall Ninjas we get in here. Never fired a shot in anger or defense, yet know all there is to know. To the point of saying those that have actual experience don't know what they are talking about. I just love it.

May 31, 2009, 10:18 PM	#4
colostomyclown Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2009 Posts: 613	It proves he was holding it wrong. It doesn't prove anything else...although pgo guns are definitely less effective in 9/10 circumstances as opposed to a full stock. They have their merits, even if it's just a novelty. But it definitely isn't anything to rely 100 pct on. I keep a pgo wingmaster for hd because of the size of my house. Almost any scenario I have will be contact shooting so it really doesn't matter. Plus I live alone. Bigger house and more people I'd opt for the full stock any day of the week. I ALSO own full stock guns and prefer them for the most part.

May 31, 2009, 10:25 PM	#5
Maser Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2006 Location: Mysterious Cities of Gold Posts: 920	I didn't watch the video, but I'm guessing it's the video that has the idiot getting hit in the teeth trying to aim the pistol grip shotgun. A pistol grip shotgun is just like any other gun. You NEED practice to be able to use it effectively either on the range or in an HD situation. Pistol grips are far more easy to manipulate, but of course they can't be shouldered. I can easily shot a pistol grip 12 gauge from the hip and hit ANYTHING I'm pointing it at. Remember, you DON'T aim a shotgun like you would a rifle or handgun, you point it. Unless of course you're shooting slugs.

May 31, 2009, 11:20 PM	#6
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	To c-Clown and maser, First don't take this as an absolute assault on your opinion... I once had only a PGO on my 20 gauge 500 Mossberg. But I assure ya'll that I found absolutely no benefit to the reduced length short of a truck sleeper or a yacht with super narrow hallways. I invite anyone to my home to train with me. Typical 3-2 split plan ranch home. Show me a benefit anywhere other than the attic on my property with a pgo and you get your choice of my guns as a prize... I won't require you put up your pgo gun but rest assured I am sure of these guns as defensive weapons and the standard stock equipped gun has full mobility yet defensive tactics lean in my favor as I have a double ended club, I can hip shoot as well as a PGO but can shoulder mine and do forward recon from a rock solid mounted position... I can then fire or forward assault with the gun as a club. I also have a highly reduced risk of my gun being jerked from my grip... Trust me on this if you haven't trained this in... you need to... Let me get that muzzle... I ain't a big man but it don't take much for me to "OWN" your weapon... I am not highly trained, just real determined... Brent

May 31, 2009, 11:50 PM	#7
TxGun Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Family ranch - Central TX. Posts: 467	Some can handle pgo shotguns at typical defensive distances, some can't. I'm guessing the video is of some guy who can't. Either way, it's cool. Go with what works for you.

June 1, 2009, 01:18 PM	#10
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	A couple cogent points. First, the video reveals nothing about the usefulness of PGO shotguns. Bad technique is bad technique. However, back in the days when I HAD to qualify with a folder 870 shot from the hip, it took work to make it to the 80% minimum needed to keep my instructor's certification. At the same time, qualifying with a standard stocked 870, same COF, time and ammo was a cakewalk with typical scores running 95-100%. IOW, kiddies, a very proficient shotgunner became 15-20% less effective using a PGO. And that's under way less stress than in a life and death crisis. Since there's no real advantage to a PGO shotgun, why are you so adamant about using an inferior tool when the stakes do not get any higher? Could it be you PGO fans base your choices not on real world experience and training but on movieland fantasies and macho chestbeating? Sorry, guys, but until you folks come up with some evidence of real world experience and high round counts, I'll be treating you like I do any other gang of BS carvers and poseurs. And that's not very good at all.....

June 1, 2009, 02:50 PM	#14
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Amd, what the regulars on tfl's shotgun section tire of is that folks actually opine the "merits" of the PGO and hint around or blatantly claim them to be superior to a regular stock set up. Kind of like claiming a garden tractor is superior to real farm tractor for plowin' the back forty. Sure there are times where a pgo is a hoot to shoot... strictly just for fun, out in the back yard just blastin off from the hip... sure. Brent

June 1, 2009, 03:03 PM	#15
amd6547 Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 2,313	I have yet to see anyone claim the PG shotguns are superior in every case to a stock equipped shotgun. Yet, people like you continue to claim they are useless as SD weapons, which couldn't be farther from the truth. __________________ The past is gone...the future may never happen. Be Here Now.

June 1, 2009, 03:09 PM	#16
Jonathan12 Member Join Date: March 21, 2009 Posts: 27	My PGO HD shotgun "Mjöllnir" has a laser sight on it...which to me sort of counters the inability to aim down the barrel (I put it on purely for function, as it doesn't look good at all. No 'mall ninja' stuff here). I also have a full speedfeed stock I can put on it if I'm so inclined. That makes it too long to easily handle in my house though. -Jonathan

June 1, 2009, 04:42 PM	#18
Naterstein Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2009 Location: Central KY Posts: 151	Probably the only PGO I would consider.

June 1, 2009, 07:34 PM	#19
Nemsis Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2006 Location: Peoples Republic of Chicago Posts: 408	I tried one on my 870 had no problems hitting center mass out to 20yds but I put my knox stock back on __________________ "The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas

June 2, 2009, 02:54 AM	#20
kno3mike Junior Member Join Date: January 14, 2009 Location: West Georgia Posts: 7	"Let me get that muzzle... I ain't a big man but it don't take much for me to "OWN" your weapon... I am not highly trained, just real determined..." with all due respect....I wouldn't recommend that with a loaded 12ga..... Last edited by kno3mike; June 2, 2009 at 03:25 AM. Reason: added text

June 2, 2009, 03:05 AM	#21
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	It training practice I would never grab a loaded gun nor even participate with loaded weapons... Brent

June 2, 2009, 03:56 AM	#22
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	It's not a case of "If you don't like them"..... I take the time and trouble to mod three shotgun BBs because real people in the real world can get hurt by bad info or BS posted as fact. Noblesse Oblige.. Sure, I can get hits with a PGO. I can get better, FASTER hits with a standard stock fired from the shoulder. So can you. Test this yourself. Time any COF with a PGO. Try it again with the same ammo, conditions,etc, but use the same shotgun equipped with a standard stock that fits you. Compare times and scores. And consider these.... In more than ten years, not one PGO fan has posted a video showing them working a PGO shotgun as fast as even an old arthritic shotgunner like me cna do with real world equipment. NO major shooting instructor like Farnam, Ayoob or Awerback has a PGO segment in a shotgun course. No major shotgun sport has PGO shotguns turning up in the hands of the winners. Or even the also rans. Not IPSC, IDPA, CAS,FITASC, Trap, Skeet or SC. Finally, tell me you had fun with your PGO range toy blasting tin cans and I may believe you. Tell me you can shoot it just as well as a regular shotgun and I may just call you a liar to your face. Why? Because I know better....

June 2, 2009, 08:38 AM	#24
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	The laser may help... I personally will have absolutely no battery powered devices on my HD gun. So many reasons for this decision... 1)Batteries can fail. 2)Electronics can fail. 3)In the time I may be allotted to get into action I may not have time to deploy the laser beam. 4)No light emitting from my position. Me and Murphy are well acquainted but we are not friends. For this reason I would choose a single shot NEF over any semi auto for my HD gun, To me survival is self reliance, personal accountability and responsibility cause me to choose devices with reduced risk of failure... YMMV as this is just personal opinion on HD. Brent